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Now that we are past major hurdle (of justifiable need), lets talk about potential costs. Looking at the RPO process just as a guide line:

1. Yearly renewal application fees ($50 +)

2. Qualification/Certification twice a year ($250+?)

3. Fingerprinting fees with every renewal ($100?)

So we are looking at around $500 (plus whatever the NJ is going to throw when the dust settles) every year for the privilege of exercising a Constitutional Right ?

https://www.nj.gov/njsp/firearms/firearms-faqs.shtml

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3 hours ago, CJack said:

Now that we are past major hurdle (of justifiable need), lets talk about potential costs. Looking at the RPO process just as a guide line:

1. Yearly renewal application fees ($50 +)

2. Qualification/Certification twice a year ($250+?)

3. Fingerprinting fees with every renewal ($100?)

So we are looking at around $500 (plus whatever the NJ is going to throw when the dust settles) every year for the privilege of exercising a Constitutional Right ?

https://www.nj.gov/njsp/firearms/firearms-faqs.shtml

Doesn't the CCW permit last for two years though?

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11 minutes ago, Grayson6074 said:

Doesn't the CCW permit last for two years though?

Not if NJ want to screw us (which is guaranteed) and still look like they are being fair by offering same terms as RPO..

"This identification card shall be valid for one year from the date of issuance and shall be valid throughout the state."

https://www.nj.gov/njsp/firearms/rpo-law.shtml

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RPO need to qual 2X per year.  60 rounds for the PQC and 40 rounds for the night/lowlights portion with a good quality flashlight.  So factor in a minimum of 200 rounds and that is if you pass on the first try.  If you fail they might make you go back on another day and if you show up with a junk flashlight you will probably be asked to leave.

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1 minute ago, samiam said:

Just out of curiosity, what percentage of RPO's are employed in some other physical security job (guard, etc.), and how many of those are compensated for their renewal costs? Just a ball park estimate.

The one I've been referencing lately does his through the county government for free since he works part time (retirement job) for them.

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I'm paying $295 for the NRA CCW class, and another ~$200 for the ammo required (~400 rounds). If I need to do that twice a year, it will be at least a minor hardship, and I while retired, I'm not hurting. Are there any minority advocacy groups that are pro-2A (I know most of them are very anti)? If so, I wonder if one of them could bring an action contending that NJ is discriminating against (presumable poor) minorities by creating requirements for carry that are unaffordable? I know it's highly unlikely, but it would be entertaining to watch some of these douche bags get hoisted on their own petards.  

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18 minutes ago, Cheflife15 said:

We're gonna spend all this money and they're going to restrict us to being able to carry in like 1 location. 

Carry allowed; to and from the range with reasonable deviation. Carry allowed; from the gunstore to your home, with reasonable deviation. :wacko:

 

 


 

 

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Stop with the Chicken Little stuff.

PCH lasts 2 years.

You do not need to take a class every time you apply - it's a one time cost if you can't pass quals on your own.

You need to requalify every 6 months so 4 times in 2 years. I did a qual 2 weeks ago that cost me $65 plus 50 rounds. It's nowhere near $250 + 400 rounds.

Fingerprinting every renewal is dumb, but yeah $100 each time

If you can't pass quals on the first try, walking onto the range cold (i.e. no warm up/practice shots) you are not ready for an armed encounter - get more training and practice.

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1 hour ago, Mr.Stu said:

Stop with the Chicken Little stuff.

PCH lasts 2 years.

You do not need to take a class every time you apply - it's a one time cost if you can't pass quals on your own.

You need to requalify every 6 months so 4 times in 2 years. I did a qual 2 weeks ago that cost me $65 plus 50 rounds. It's nowhere near $250 + 400 rounds.

Fingerprinting every renewal is dumb, but yeah $100 each time

If you can't pass quals on the first try, walking onto the range cold (i.e. no warm up/practice shots) you are not ready for an armed encounter - get more training and practice.

Seriously.  People need to stop giving them ideas on how to screw us over.  You KNOW the powers that be monitor this site and are takeing notes.  I can see them now.  Hunched over their computer.   'OH!  I didn't even think of that one!  Phil will love that idea!!"

Where did you do your qualification at?

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1 minute ago, gleninjersey said:

Seriously.  People need to stop giving them ideas on how to screw us over.  You KNOW the powers that be monitor this site and are takeing notes.  I can see them now.  Hunched over their computer.   'OH!  I didn't even think of that one!  Phil will love that idea!!"

Where did you do your qualification at?

You really think me pointing out where the gloom mongering is incorrect it giving people ideas? I am only refuting what has already been complained about.

I qualified with Bob Bajor at Phillipsburg because that's my home range. He is listed on the RPO list on the NJSP web site: https://nj.gov/njsp/firearms/shooting-ranges.shtml

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Not sure where all this misinformation is coming from about cost and number of rounds and course of fire. Right now the permit app fee is $50 for 2 years if approved. Course of fire is 50 rounds at intervals out to 25 yards,you must score 40 out of 50 ,80%. Now, can those requirements change? Of course.Will they be constitutional? Maybe not. If you haven't read the ruling or comments by justice Thomas ,you should. They cannot put any crazy requirements , restrictions or unreasonable costs that would restrict the average citizen from obtaining a CCW.

Gun for hire has cert course for $150. Im sure some ranges will gouge customers. You also have to pay for you electronic prints.

I would let the dust settle before i apply and see what sticks to the wall as far as requirements

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4 hours ago, Mr.Stu said:

You really think me pointing out where the gloom mongering is incorrect it giving people ideas? I am only refuting what has already been complained about.

I qualified with Bob Bajor at Phillipsburg because that's my home range. He is listed on the RPO list on the NJSP web site: https://nj.gov/njsp/firearms/shooting-ranges.shtml

did Bob have you shoot the 25yrd. line as described in HQC1 and draw from holster......I see where some facilities are only shooting the 15yd. and closer and no holster draw.....would like to get a grasp on what is actually being required.

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35 minutes ago, xXxplosive said:

did Bob have you shoot the 25yrd. line as described in HQC1 and draw from holster......I see where some facilities are only shooting the 15yd. and closer and no holster draw.....would like to get a grasp on what is actually being required.

There are people ranting on these thread about qualifying with FBI/LEO courses, night training, drawing from holster, twice a year,etc, etc.

That's FINE if they want to do it, but it's not necessary.

GFH has the qualification course listed on their site.  It's PAINFULLY easy to anyone who practices even a little.

– No holster needed
– All shooting from the ready position
– 50 rounds per firearm
– FBI Q target
– 24 rounds at 7 yards
– 14 rounds at 10 yards
– 6 rounds at 15 yards
– 6 rounds at 25 yards
For a total of 50 rounds. Must hit at least 40 rounds out of 50 (80%)

 

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5 hours ago, Mr.Stu said:

If you can't pass quals on the first try, walking onto the range cold (i.e. no warm up/practice shots) you are not ready for an armed encounter - get more training and practice.

Constitution mentions nothing about "passing quals".

Just because NJ has restrictive policies it doesn't mean that they're necessary or proper.

While it wouldn't hurt, the average Joe who wants to carry doesn't 'need' police training.

 

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10 minutes ago, 124gr9mm said:

Constitution mentions nothing about "passing quals".

Just because NJ has restrictive policies it doesn't mean that they're necessary or proper.

While it wouldn't hurt, the average Joe who wants to carry doesn't 'need' police training.

 

I said nothing about the constitution.

If someone is trying to cause you serious harm or death, you need to stop them as soon as possible. That means rounds on target, on demand, immediately. If you can't do that when the paper target isn't causing you any harm, you can't believe you can do it in an actual fight, surely?

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20 minutes ago, Mr.Stu said:

I said nothing about the constitution.

If someone is trying to cause you serious harm or death, you need to stop them as soon as possible. That means rounds on target, on demand, immediately. If you can't do that when the paper target isn't causing you any harm, you can't believe you can do it in an actual fight, surely?

No idea why you're talking about firefights.

The rest of free America doesn't base the ability to carry a gun for self defense on the results of a FBI/Police qual, so people in NJ shouldn't either.

There are plenty of videos available where an untrained good guy with a gun stops a bad guy.  Yes, that's outside of NJ, but the point is that we have to un-screw our minds to the damage NJ has done.

I advocate/encourage as much training and shooting as possible, but I don't believe it's a requirement for a CCW.

Basic proficiency and having a gun on you is far better than not carrying at all because you sucked at the "low light qual".

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6 minutes ago, 124gr9mm said:

No idea why you're talking about firefights.

The rest of free America doesn't base the ability to carry a gun for self defense on the results of a FBI/Police qual, so people in NJ shouldn't either.

There are plenty of videos available where an untrained good guy with a gun stops a bad guy.  Yes, that's outside of NJ, but the point is that we have to un-screw our minds to the damage NJ has done.

I advocate/encourage as much training and shooting as possible, but I don't believe it's a requirement for a CCW.

Basic proficiency and having a gun on you is far better than not carrying at all because you sucked at the "low light qual".

I don't know why you think I'm talking about government requirements. 

I'm talking about a situation where you find yourself needing to use a handgun to defend yourself or someone you love. If that's not a valid scenario, why carry at all?

If you are not serious about being able to effectively use the tool you want to carry, why do you want it?

Luck is not a strategy.

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8 hours ago, Mr.Stu said:

I don't know why you think I'm talking about government requirements.

People have been reacting to the insistence that there was a requirement to qualify 2x per year with the FBI/Police standard.  They were expressing that it seemed extensive/prohibitive.

I agree.  IMO civilians aren't expected to engage in firefights and run towards situations where there's a gun battle the way FBI/Police are, so there should be no such standard to carry. 

Your responses seem to brush those concerns off and imply that the standard is fine.

I referenced the Constitution because there's no such standard listed or implied there for someone to keep an bear arms.  All you have to do is go to a Constitutional Carry state to see why the FBI/Police standard is not necessary.

Again, I'm an advocate of getting as much training as possible and practicing as much as possible.

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9 hours ago, 124gr9mm said:

 Yes, that's outside of NJ, but the point is that we have to un-screw our minds to the damage NJ has done.

I advocate/encourage as much training and shooting as possible, but I don't believe it's a requirement for a CCW.

Basic proficiency and having a gun on you is far better than not carrying at all because you sucked at the "low light qual".

Very good argument. Many years of draconian NJ firearms laws with some of their unreasonable and obsolete requirements for firearms ownership had done their damage to our minds.  With modern technology there is no need for multiple references and endless renewals. This is a hardship for some and especially for older people. Some of their friends are gone, other lost their minds and joined the antis. There is a generation divide between parents and their grown children. All these petty requirements have only one purpose, to make it hard or impossible to own a gun in NJ.

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1 hour ago, 124gr9mm said:

People have been reacting to the insistence that there was a requirement to qualify 2x per year with the FBI/Police standard.  They were expressing that it seemed extensive/prohibitive.

I agree.  IMO civilians aren't expected to engage in firefights and run towards situations where there's a gun battle the way FBI/Police are, so there should be no such standard to carry. 

Your responses seem to brush those concerns off and imply that the standard is fine.

I referenced the Constitution because there's no such standard listed or implied there for someone to keep an bear arms.  All you have to do is go to a Constitutional Carry state to see why the FBI/Police standard is not necessary.

Again, I'm an advocate of getting as much training as possible and practicing as much as possible.

Perhaps we're not a million miles apart on this.

I see it as a matter of personal responsibility. The qualification courses of fire are a pretty low bar when it comes to measuring shooting ability. I think it is frightening how low that bar is, and for people to be worried about passing that very low measure is something that concerns me. I'm not talking about government mandates. I'm talking about personal responsibility. Similarly, when someone reaches old age and their physical and mental abilities decline, I believe they should voluntarily hang up their car keys rather than let their pride get in the way and continue to drive when they are unable to safely control a vehicle.

I know a number of LEO instructors and they are horrified at the standard demonstrated by too many cops. I have had cops show up to my matches and they clearly didn't pass their quals on the first try. Many of them are fine, but there are some that are a cause for concern.

When I carry a gun in public, I'm not just concerned with an attacker. I am also determined not to endanger any other innocent people that are in the area. To be confident in that, I need to know that I can hit what I want to hit, and not let errant rounds fly into random targets.

You have mentioned not getting into a firefight. Surely, you understand that a nut job shooting in an urban environment could easily be more than 15 yards away. Do you think you are safe from them at that distance? Maybe their marksmanship isn't great, but an unaimed round does just as much damage as an aimed one if it hits you.

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2 minutes ago, Mr.Stu said:

Perhaps we're not a million miles apart on this.

I see it as a matter of personal responsibility. The qualification courses of fire are a pretty low bar when it comes to measuring shooting ability. I think it is frightening how low that bar is, and for people to be worried about passing that very low measure is something that concerns me. I'm not talking about government mandates. I'm talking about personal responsibility. Similarly, when someone reaches old age and their physical and mental abilities decline, I believe they should voluntarily hang up their car keys rather than let their pride get in the way and continue to drive when they are unable to safely control a vehicle.

I know a number of LEO instructors and they are horrified at the standard demonstrated by too many cops. I have had cops show up to my matches and they clearly didn't pass their quals on the first try. Many of them are fine, but there are some that are a cause for concern.

When I carry a gun in public, I'm not just concerned with an attacker. I am also determined not to endanger any other innocent people that are in the area. To be confident in that, I need to know that I can hit what I want to hit, and not let errant rounds fly into random targets.

You have mentioned not getting into a firefight. Surely, you understand that a nut job shooting in an urban environment could easily be more than 15 yards away. Do you think you are safe from them at that distance? Maybe their marksmanship isn't great, but an unaimed round does just as much damage as an aimed one if it hits you.

We're actually pretty closely aligned.

I personally wouldn't consider carrying a gun if I wasn't confident in my ability to safely/properly shoot it.  I've taken training courses, competed in various GSSF/IDPA/IPSC/Steel Challenge/3gun, etc, etc matches and I try to go to the range once a week (though ammo prices and work schedule have made me slip a bit) so that i'm confident with all the long and short guns I have.

On the flip side, i have friends and family in southern and flyover states who regularly carry but spend almost no time at the range (or backyard) practicing.

I think my mindset is correct, but they have just as much of a right to carry a gun to protect themselves as I do.

So while I personally agree that training/competency with firearms is a personal responsibility that should be completed prior to carry, i don't think it should be a legislated requirement.


 

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Speaking only to my own posts on the costs, I wan't claiming that the training portion (as contrasted with the qualification/target shooting portion) would be required twice a year (or ever again, for that matter), I was more asking about it, as I still don't see any clear resolution of the conflict between what is stated in N. J. A. C. 2C:58-4, and in the NJSP "Applying for a Permit to Carry a Handgun" document on that subject. I wouldn't have a huge objection to going through only the qualification part twice annually, although I do think that for most civilans, once per year should be plenty. For myself, I think that the NRA CCW course is probably worth the direct cost as a refresher, although I really wish I didn't need to purchase quite that much ammo. 

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I may be wrong about this, or it may have been changed sense I first heard about it, But isn't it in NJ, you have to qualify with each and every particular firearm you intend/are authorized to carry and then that particular firearm is listed on your CCW credentials and you may only carry listed firearms?

The reason I say this in this thread is each qualification would be accompanied by it's own fee.

You have 5 guns you may wish to carry at different times. Would require 5 qualification ranges sessions with a separate fee for each. 

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17 hours ago, Mr.Stu said:

You really think me pointing out where the gloom mongering is incorrect it giving people ideas? I am only refuting what has already been complained about.

I qualified with Bob Bajor at Phillipsburg because that's my home range. He is listed on the RPO list on the NJSP web site: https://nj.gov/njsp/firearms/shooting-ranges.shtml

Lol.  I meant the other people who are complaining and providing example after example of new and innovative ways for NJ to screw us over.  

Thanks for the info on the qualifications.

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23 hours ago, xXxplosive said:

So GFH website says they're shooting from the 25yrd. line while the RTSP sites says 15yrd. line for their courses respectfully......is this their option or what....?

GFH course of fire represents the HQC, and scoring method. 

Not sure what RTSP does but I would be worry of anything less than the standard string of shots from the HQC.  

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