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Concealed Carry Handguns

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16 hours ago, High Exposure said:

Not true.

It may not be a common occurrence, but I know for a fact that the engaged safety on a S&W 4013 saved the life of a co-worker when someone took his gun, put it to his chest, pulled the trigger, and got a dead trigger instead of a bang.

Not chambering a round is the stupidest thing you can do when carrying a gun. Engaging a manual safety, if the pistol if so equipped, is appropriate. Carrying an unloaded gun is borderline suicidal. You can’t compare that Israeli garbage technique to using a manual safety appropriately.

The manipulation of most pistol safeties adds zero time to a draw. I also guarantee I can draw and fire my 1911 (scoring an a zone hit) as fast if not faster than you can any striker fired gun.

Tell some of these Tier 1 guys still carrying 1911s or these GM Competition shooters with their 1911 and 2011 pattern guns, all with manual safeties, that they are slow. They will burn you down on a shot timer.

Ultimately, I don’t know if any of this really matters in the grand scheme of things, as my personal CCW choices reflect, but they are choices to be made in the real world and should be considered when choosing a gun you are comfortable betting your life on AND when deciding what skills and TTPs you are going to train.

 

"Israeli garbage technique" that's somewhat ignorant.

Granted, I am not an advocate for this style of carry, but it is a viable option in certain locales and possibly around small children. FYI, when i carried out of state, it was always condition 1 or 2. I would not call it garbage though.

 

 

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10 minutes ago, marlintag said:

"Israeli garbage technique" that's somewhat ignorant.

Granted, I am not an advocate for this style of carry, but it is a viable option in certain locales and possibly around small children. FYI, when i carried out of state, it was always condition 1 or 2. I would not call it garbage though.

Not ignorant at all. Been around a while and tried a lot of techniques for carrying a handgun. Carrying a handgun with an empty chamber when you don’t have to is garbage. It does absolutely nothing to your ability to safely carry a gun and actually makes protecting yourself with a firearm more dangerous.

You will not find a reputable instructor in this country that advocates for this method of carry. Plus, if you ever speak with an Israeli instructor that is honest, they will agree that their method is inferior to carrying with a round chambered. 

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4 minutes ago, High Exposure said:

Not ignorant at all. Been around a while and tried a lot of techniques for carrying a handgun. Carrying a handgun with an empty chamber when you don’t have to is garbage. It does absolutely nothing to your ability to safely carry a gun and actually makes protecting yourself with a firearm more dangerous.

You will not find a reputable instructor in this country that advocates for this method of carry. Plus, if you ever speak with an Israeli instructor that is honest, they will agree that their method is inferior to carrying with a round chambered. 

You "been around a while" and "tried different techniques" so, you know it all right? I have also tried different techniques and like I said earlier there may be times where condition 3 is warranted like around small children or in certain locales. Keep in mind, that in other countries they have to do condition 3. I also don't see how its "more dangerous" when the operator in the video can clearly handle himself and though I did not place him against a timer, he appears to be lock step with many LEO's i have seen at the range who are practicing their draws. 

You will not find a reputable instructor in this country that advocates for this method of carry. Plus, if you ever speak with an Israeli instructor that is honest, they will agree that their method is inferior to carrying with a round chambered. 

Ok, enter Cherev Gidon

Cherev Gidon - Israeli Tactical Training Academy - HOME

He trains people in the Israeli style of pistol combat including the draw. Now, i will agree with you that condition 3 carry is not popular here and that many instructors will not teach it, but there are places in the US who specifically cater to this type of training. Open up your mind a little.

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48 minutes ago, marlintag said:

"Israeli garbage technique" that's somewhat ignorant.

Granted, I am not an advocate for this style of carry, but it is a viable option in certain locales and possibly around small children. FYI, when i carried out of state, it was always condition 1 or 2. I would not call it garbage though.

 

 

Not a very good technique if your support hand is unavailable for some reason: Managing a child, grappling with your assailant, injured, etc.

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4 minutes ago, Mr.Stu said:

Not a very good technique if your support hand is unavailable for some reason: Managing a child, grappling with your assailant, injured, etc.

It's more of a handsgun technique.

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26 minutes ago, marlintag said:

there may be times where condition 3

 

41 minutes ago, High Exposure said:

Carrying a handgun with an empty chamber when you don’t have to is garbage.

 

Jeeze @marlintag, you're getting angry but it seems to me that you both AGREE

Sometimes we look for a fight where one doesn't exist...

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2 minutes ago, Mr.Stu said:

Not a very good technique if your support hand is unavailable for some reason: Managing a child, grappling with your assailant, injured, etc.

who's says he can't rack the slide off his belt, holster, some hard surface? he's simply illustrating the basic technique which he has mastered and his reloads would put many to shame.

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1 minute ago, marlintag said:

who's says he can't rack the slide off his belt, holster, some hard surface? he's simply illustrating the basic technique which he has mastered and his reloads would put many to shame.

Nobody says that.

Also, nobody says that drawing, finding something solid enough to rack the gun on, racking the gun, then presenting the gun is as efficient as drawing the gun and then immediately presenting the gun.

Also, his ability to reload is meaningless with respect to his ability to get the gun into the fight initially. It might only be relevant if he was starting with no mag in the gun either, but nobody is that afraid of an ND, I'm sure. 

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2 minutes ago, marlintag said:

No anger here, just facts.

I didn't say you were angry, just that you appeared to be looking for a fight.

I was referring to "You "been around a while" and "tried different techniques" so, you know it all right?".

I think most here would recognize that practice/training can be the great equalizer and close the efficiency/effectiveness gap between techniques.

 

 

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4 minutes ago, Mr.Stu said:

Not a very good technique if your support hand is unavailable for some reason: Managing a child, grappling with your assailant, injured, etc.

All while praying that you don't have a failure to feed, have enough space to manipulate the slide without short stroking, and...having 1 less round available to you.

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1 hour ago, RichP said:

All while praying that you don't have a failure to feed, have enough space to manipulate the slide without short stroking, and...having 1 less round available to you.

 

1 hour ago, Mr.Stu said:

Nobody says that.

Also, nobody says that drawing, finding something solid enough to rack the gun on, racking the gun, then presenting the gun is as efficient as drawing the gun and then immediately presenting the gun.

Also, his ability to reload is meaningless with respect to his ability to get the gun into the fight initially. It might only be relevant if he was starting with no mag in the gun either, but nobody is that afraid of an ND, I'm sure. 

I think both of you are losing sight of the purpose of my initial response, which was to illustrate that this "style" or "technique" is not garbage. Everything from appendix carry to SOB carry has positives and negatives along with condition 3 carry. We can appreciate other "styles" or "techniques" without disregarding them as garbage and realize there may be times when condition 3 is a safer alternative. 

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I don't think either of us said it was "garbage", just pointing-out that there are some pretty compelling points against it. Since you didn't do so, I'll point out some things that condition 3 carry is useful for.

Open carry in public settings, especially if using a holster without retention

Added protection for guns without a drop safety or FPB

Newer shooters (think 50 beginner shooters in a line all drawing and firing a weapon on command)

And lastly, some just like the belt and suspenders approach.

Obviously, any preference requires diligent training.

 

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On 6/26/2022 at 10:31 PM, father-of-three said:

I will assume that it would be difficult to qualify with a pocket pistol that has a 10 yard range on a good day.

But I have back up plans...

I qualified with my Seecamp .380 pocket gun with 2” barrel out to 25 yards.  Scored an 88.  The grip screw broke with six shots to go, but was able to keep it together to finish the qual.  Definitely not meant to shoot that far, but that’s what we’re stuck with.  

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I qualify with my Gen1 Ruger LCP .380 (the early model with the tiny bumps for sights) twice a year - each qual is 90 rounds total for the HQC and HNQC including 10 rounds at 25 yards and ~30 with a handheld flashlight.

The shooting fundamentals don’t change with caliber or because they are pocket sized guns.

Align the sights properly, work the trigger without disturbing your sight picture, and follow through.

Thats not to say I don’t shoot my full size guns better* - because I do - I’m just pointing out that qualifying with small guns is doable if you stick to the fundamentals and do your part.
 

 

 

* better = tighter groups with faster splits.

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@High Exposure when i was working people would want to carry the smallest gun possible but not put the effort into learning how to shoot it.

I would take my Beretta Minx, 22 short or my Jetfire, 25 ACP and shoot a qual course resulting in a more than passing but often a max score.

Have I carried the Minx or Jetfire as my only armament.  Yes, where I knew I'd be in a VERY low risk environment.  Most of the time now I carry my S&W Boduguard 380.  About the same size as the Berettas but a 380.

Higher threat? A G19 or Smith 66.

I've only been carrying guns for almost 50 years.  WTF do I know.

 

 

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@High Exposure wouldn't try a qual course with  Raven but confident it would do the job within 5 yards.

Jimmy Cirillo told me a story.  This was when NYPD had transitioned to semi-autos and before hollowpoints IIRC. 

His partner had dumped 15 rds from his 5946 (?). The guy with 6 rds in his Model 10 withb158 SWCS took out the bad guy with 6 in the pumper.

How you shootbin quals has zip how you shoot in a gunfight.

Just my experience.

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@GRIZ I agree. Qualification is a test, not training.

However, if a qual is a prerequisite to carry, a particular firearm, you have to pass it with that gun.

I can’t just carry my LCP because I want to. I have to demonstrate competency with it first.

The State (NJ AG’s office, to be precise) has determined that in order to be deemed proficient with that firearm and be granted permission to carry it on my person in public, in an official capacity I have to pass the HQC and the HNQC.

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@High Exposure   I used to give my people tips on how to do well in Qualification.  Training used to come before Qualification so no one could qualify and then sneak out.  Most of my people enjoyed and appreciated shooting with me. I stole a line from Cirillo.  I'll get you to shoot a good Qualification score and then I'll teach you to shoot to stay alive.

Yeah I had a few that wanted to do the minimum.  But most wanted to learn and perform. I laugh at those who say "I shoot better than the cops". They never saw my people shoot.

Too many focus on what "platform" they're using. Most of my life I've been told what "platform" I'd use. M14, M16, 1911, Model 10, Model 66, 659, 6906, and G19 to name a few. Never concerned about the platform.  Just willing to learn it to fight.

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 I laugh at those who say "I shoot better than the cops".

I’m not sure why. The average firearms enthusiast and casual shooter is a far better shot than the average cop. It’s unfortunate, and also ironic since half of the country thinks only cops should have guns. 

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4 hours ago, Variant said:

 I laugh at those who say "I shoot better than the cops".

I’m not sure why. The average firearms enthusiast and casual shooter is a far better shot than the average cop. It’s unfortunate, and also ironic since half of the country thinks only cops should have guns. 

Shooting is just a part of fighting.

 

 

 

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3 hours ago, GRIZ said:

Shooting is just a part of fighting.

 

I’m not sure what that means or how it applies.

You laugh at people who say they shoot better than cops. That’s a very serious problem when cops are the ones who everyone expects to be a very good shot. And it’s even worse when considering that such a huge amount of people think only cop should be the ones carrying guns.

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Since my first shotgun when I was 14 way back in 1974,  all my guns had a safety.  11 handguns later they all still have a safety.  If you dont have time to work a safety there probably isnt time for much else either...

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8 minutes ago, Tunaman said:

Since my first shotgun when I was 14 way back in 1974,  all my guns had a safety.  11 handguns later they all still have a safety.  

I'm not disagreeing, but 11 handguns later it's high time you get a revolver or two.

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I've owned guns for over 50 yrs. and trained with handguns on and off for the better part of 40.  What I've learned is there is always someone better than me who I learn from and most importantly that I don't ever want to use what I learned. Two police officers I used to shoot better than both saved lives in real situations because they were able to use the training they did effectively. 

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On 7/5/2022 at 12:30 PM, ShootersShooter said:

Shooters Sporting Center in Little Egg Harbor. 

1535 Route 539 Little Egg Harbor NJ 08087

1-609-296-4080

I'm a member & not paid to recommend them, just a really well-run shop/range.

I went to Shooters last month to use the indoor range.  It’s needs some upgrades.  The target trolly system is old, and gets stuck.  Then you have to wait for the RO to come over and try to free it up.  Happened three times to me in one visit.  There’s virtually no ventilation in the range.  There’s no place to put your stuff.  No countertop or cubbies.  Very basic range.  On the plus side, the store is great.  Awesome gun selection!  

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9 hours ago, Variant said:

I’m not sure what that means or how it applies.

You laugh at people who say they shoot better than cops. That’s a very serious problem when cops are the ones who everyone expects to be a very good shot. And it’s even worse when considering that such a huge amount of people think only cop should be the ones carrying guns.

Gunfighting is more mental than skill with firearms.  Some think I buy a $3000 1911, go to a few bullshit 2 day shooting schools, and feel they are proficient gunfighters.

You need to understand the belief that cops should be a very good shot is false.

Don't believe me?  Watch "Mental Preparation for Combat Shooting" by Jeff Cooper.  One of the founders of modern combat shooting.  The principles he speaks of haven't changed although the video was made about 50 years ago.

So if you shoot well on paper targets that's good.  But how will you fight? I benefited from NCOs who had already fought in 2 wars when I was in Vietnam.  Military combat shooting is different than civilian.  More on that if you want.

I can tell you stories about how someone that barely qualified put 6 rounds from his Model 10 S&W in the target that stopped the BG. Not a $3000 gun.

I can also tell you stories about cops who carried "wonder 9s".  Qualified expert every time they qualified  who dumped 15 rds toward the target...and didn't hit it once.

Having been a police firearms instructor since 1976 I've seen it all. One of the things that restricts most police agencies is budget. I still do private instruction.  I charge good money for that but have also have those after maybe 5-6 hrs on the range told my client "don't carry a gun, you'd only be fooling yourself. Keep a gun at home when you'll be shooting at 10 feet.  Carry a pepper blaster."

Smaller agencies don't have the money to spend like larger agencies.  Some agencies in NJ only can afford the 2x a year qualification.

When I worked for a municipal police department in NJ.  it was 2 quals a year, duty weapon only.  I had a chief, who didn't belong as chief because he hated cops.

When I went to a Federal agency it was qualification and training 4x a year. About 200rds for training. Plus 100 rds a month for practice.

You can ask anyone who has been on this forum since inception.  They can verify my credentials.

FWIW I saw a stat years ago.

Cops will shoot in a lethal force confrontation before civilians.  That's because of their training.

WTF DO I KNOW.

I have never been an advocate of only cops carrying guns.

 

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