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CJack

NJ Handgun Carry Permit Application Experience

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4 hours ago, Brandyep said:

Anyone who took the class at reloaderz have any issues?

My local PD is now telling me that that is not enough to qualify and that I need:

Items 1 and 3 which are the substantially equivalent training per NJSA 2C:39-6j and safe handling course

Makes no sense since that Is what I thought Reloaderz provided and I submitted to the PD

 

I disagree with your PD. I've posted the admin code before and the excerpt from the NJSP Firearm Investigator's Guidebook but they are:

Quote

NJAC 13:45-2.4

(b) Each applicant shall demonstrate a thorough familiarity with the safe handling and use of handguns by indicating in the space provided therefor on the application form, and on any sworn attachments thereto, any relevant information. Thorough familiarity with the safe handling and use of handguns shall be evidenced by:

1. Completion of a firearms training course substantially equivalent to the firearms training approved by the Police Training Commission as described by N.J.S.A. 2C:39-6j;
2. Submission of an applicant's most recent handgun qualification scores utilizing the handgun(s) he or she intends to carry as evidenced by test firings administered by a certified firearms instructor of a police academy, a certified firearms instructor of the National Rifle Association, or any other recognized certified firearms instructor; or
3. Passage of any test in this State's laws governing the use of force administered by a certified instructor of a police academy, a certified instructor of the National Rifle Association, or any other recognized certified instructor.

(c) The information in (b) above shall be accompanied and validated by certifications of the appropriate instructor(s).

See the semi-colons between 1,2,and 3 and the "or" between 2 and 3.  you only need one of these.  And that's confirmed by the NJSP Firearms Investigation Guide

Quote

Firearm Applicant Investigation Guidebook by the NJSP that is used by all local PDs and NJSP when issuing FIDs, P2P,s and Carry Permits...

"The applicant must produce evidence he or she is thoroughly familiar with the safe handling and use of handguns. This may be evidenced in one of several ways:
a. Completion of a firearms training course substantially equivalent to the firearms training approved by the Police Training Commission as described by N.J.S. 2C: 39-6.j;
b. Submission of an applicant's most recent handgun qualification scores utilizing the handgun(s) he or she intends to carry as evidenced by test firings administered by a certified firearms instructor of a police academy, a certified firearms instructor of the National Rifle Association, or any other recognized certified firearms instructor;
c. Completion of a course or test in the safe handling of a handgun administered by a certified firearms instructor of a police academy, a certified firearms instructor of the National Rifle Association, or any other recognized certified firearms instructor; or
d. Passage of any test in this State’s laws governing the use of force administered by a certified instructor of a police academy, a certified instructor of the National Rifle Association, or any other recognized certified instructor

They added a "c" which is weird but it still has the same semi-colons and the word "or". It even says specifically that "this may be evidenced in one of several ways".

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1 hour ago, Brandyep said:

My local PD just told me "its all on hold" (all carry applicants) until they get further clarification on the requirements

They reiterated that they need use of force, safe handling and the NJSA 2C:39-6j

which they feel all of these courses that are going around may not be acceptable

 

Even though the statute says “OR.”

let’s see how that goes. 

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2 hours ago, samiam said:

Thanks for that, at least. Whenever I try to call, I end up leaving VM or on hold forever. Makes me wonder why some businesses set up email if they intend to completely ignore it. My "home" range (not FMJ) is like that, too. One of my concerns is as a revolver shooter. I want to know how much time I will have to reload. I also want to know if the instructor (Hauber) expects me to have speed strips, moon clips, or some other reloading aid, and how many. I have a limited number of speed strips, but if I needed more, I'd probably have to order them on-line, and if so, I now would be rapidly running out of time to do so. If it turns out that I'm effectively required to have some item that I can't get in time, you are going to hear some harsh words directed at the instructor on July 30...

ADDED: Well, some of the information I needed is in the qualifying standards document itself. There is provision included for 5-shot weapons, which presumably would include my SP101. Anyone know if 2001 is the latest revision of this document

Semi-Annual Firearms Qualification and Requalification Standards for New Jersey Law Enforcement

Not sure if this will help anyone but he does a fair job of explaining the NJ Qualifications 

 

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3 hours ago, Brandyep said:

My local PD just told me "its all on hold" (all carry applicants) until they get further clarification on the requirements

They reiterated that they need use of force, safe handling and the NJSA 2C:39-6j

which they feel all of these courses that are going around may not be acceptable

 

Again what township or town?

 

Aren't 'feelings' great?

 

There are feeling and then there are facts....however, is anyone surpriesed?

 

This is all new to them, so I suspect they will be extra cautious....

And the statute says one of several ways...

So there is ONE, choice...but they list four...where are the other three?

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2 hours ago, JackDaWack said:

What about it? 

"6. Nothing in this Order shall be construed to supersede any federal or State law."

Thats how Nazi orders were written as well so the idiots who follow can hang but the powers be go free.

13 minutes ago, Brandyep said:

It’s Randolph.

Hopefully we get supplemental forms from reloaderz. 
 

I did quals from ReloaderZ and I had a sneaking suspicion that some towns / judges will pull some sh*t like this.

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3 hours ago, samiam said:

I think you should tell them you have contacted Evan Nappen (or pick some other name you prefer off the NJ firearms lawyers listing in another thread under the NJ laws topic) to get his opinion about the extent to which their delay of your application violates your rights as articulated in Bruen in a way that is subject to litigation. 

Looks to me as if the slimy bastard is giving himself an out he is denying to his lackeys. 

Why not just contact a lawyer and have them write a letter of intent to sue for civil and or criminal penalties if no action is taken by 60 days?

The law and Bruen are very clear, if for instance they can't understand the law, that is a huge issue. 

People bank millions for having their civil rights violated... a small time town should just rubber stamp this shit if the law isn't clear enough, and the state refuses to clarify.

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1 hour ago, CJack said:

Thats how Nazi orders were written as well so the idiots who follow can hang but the powers be go free.

Really?  They went 'free'....  

 

Did you all expect that towns and local PD's, that have no history in this stuff, where there is no guidance no precedent per se ....to just rubber stamp stuff and pass it along......or better yet that there would be no hiccups?

Ya'll can't be that naive to think there would be no difference town to town etc...cmon...  lol

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18 minutes ago, JackDaWack said:

Why not just contact a lawyer and have them write a letter of intent to sue for civil and or criminal penalties if no action is taken by 60 days?

The law and Bruen are very clear, if for instance they can't understand the law, that is a huge issue. 

People bank millions for having their civil rights violated... a small time town should just rubber stamp this shit if the law isn't clear enough, and the state refuses to clarify.

Jack we have to live in these towns lol. I don’t want to be that guy that sued his own local pd. 

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3 hours ago, Kdin1 said:

Not sure if this will help anyone but he does a fair job of explaining the NJ Qualifications 

 

Not a bad demo, except it would have been better if he didn't sweep his support hand with the muzzle every time he put the gun back in the holster.

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Im doing doylestown on monday.  Openings all day.   If you live anywhere near pa.  Lots of openings. Ewing has no openings   Btw.  All week I couldn’t figure out why I couldn’t schedule an appointment at identogo. I talked to my local pd today.  They forgot to give me a service code.  Idk if they’re all the same.  But mine is. 2f164b.  Use that code.  You will also need a case number from your pd.  

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28 minutes ago, samiam said:

Seems to me there was guidance aplenty. along with a good deal of cited precedent. in Thomas' opinion. I think that when this garbage ultimately gets into court (and I'm confident it will) I won't be alone in that opinion. Are you suggesting that we should extend compassion and patient understanding to those who refuse to recognize our rights? They had more than sufficient time to prepare for this - I have very, very little sympathy for any of them.

You and others keep quoting the court....that is fine...but bear in mind your are NOT in a state that embraces freedom...why is that?  You stated your are 70+....what failed in your time that got us to this point in time....?

 

The LEOS in my town are helpful...they support the 2a...but we r in the sticks and rednecks...what do we know

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3 hours ago, Brandyep said:

Jack we have to live in these towns lol. I don’t want to be that guy that sued his own local pd. 

I'm on the payroll in my town and will not hesitate at all to hire a lawyer if I feel I'm not being treated properly according to the Bruen decision. I do not expect any roadblocks until it goes to the judge. And then I expect to be approved.

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2 hours ago, samiam said:

The lawyer might want to be paid up front for that work. Why should the applicant need to fork over money because the local cop shop is staffed by morons with delusions of competence? Just maybe, a plausible threat could spook those a$$-clowns into moving off the dime, and costs nothing. I suspect there will be no lack of class action suits looking for additional plantiffs before very long, and those will almost certainly cost those claiming injury nothing up front to take part. 

Because cops are told all day "I'm going to sue you".  I think it's lost it's teeth.

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I would advise patience. I have several non resident permits and everyone took a month or so to process, some longer. There’s a bureaucratic process that needs to happen and in this case it is new for all involved. I personally think that it will take somewhere between 4 to six weeks. My application has been in for a little over lof two weeks, PD have received the prints, references have been contacted and they sent the letters back… things are moving, not as fas as we would like it but moving. I’m trying to nit thing too much about it, go to the range, shoot a match and get a nice carry rig while you wait ;)


 

 

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4 hours ago, JackDaWack said:

Why not just contact a lawyer and have them write a letter of intent to sue for civil and or criminal penalties if no action is taken by 60 days?

The law and Bruen are very clear, if for instance they can't understand the law, that is a huge issue. 

People bank millions for having their civil rights violated... a small time town should just rubber stamp this shit if the law isn't clear enough, and the state refuses to clarify.

Not sure if you're serious?

Local PD has never done this before, so they're working to understand and execute on a new firearms process.  They have things temporarily on hold while they work out their issues and your recommendation is to spend hundreds/thousands of dollars (depending on the lawyer) to send threatening letters?

How about pausing ans working WITH the police department to smooth out the process.

Provide them with as much information as possible and share what other municipalities are doing?

Refer them to a contact in a city where permits are being processed and tell them to follow suit?

Be respectful and direct them to Nappan and/or other lawyers for reference?

IMO waiting an extra 30 days for something that has never been available will go a long way to building good will with your local PD...
 

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1 hour ago, 124gr9mm said:

Not sure if you're serious?

Local PD has never done this before, so they're working to understand and execute on a new firearms process.  They have things temporarily on hold while they work out their issues and your recommendation is to spend hundreds/thousands of dollars (depending on the lawyer) to send threatening letters?

How about pausing ans working WITH the police department to smooth out the process.

Provide them with as much information as possible and share what other municipalities are doing?

Refer them to a contact in a city where permits are being processed and tell them to follow suit?

Be respectful and direct them to Nappan and/or other lawyers for reference?

IMO waiting an extra 30 days for something that has never been available will go a long way to building good will with your local PD...
 

Good will? LoL. 

A number of towns are already approving and squared away. This process isn't new, at all. It's just that regular people get to do it now. To say the town has never done it, I doubt it very much. 

MANY towns are accepting the passing qualifications and processing permits. Why should any towns PD get to simply delay a process? I'm also not sure what guidance they are waiting on? And how long they plan to wait. 

If the PDs can't get their shit together, it's not mine or yours job to do it for them. 

So yes, a properly penned letter of intent from a lawyer is typically how you get shit done in this respect. Call up NJ2AS ANJRPC, see if they are willing to help, they literally have written dozens of letters sent to municipalities to get into compliance with FPIDs. They have 60 days to figure it out... 2 months is a pretty long time when they could just call the NJSP, or NJ AG if they really can't figure it out themselves....

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52 minutes ago, 124gr9mm said:

Not sure if you're serious?

Local PD has never done this before, so they're working to understand and execute on a new firearms process.  They have things temporarily on hold while they work out their issues and your recommendation is to spend hundreds/thousands of dollars (depending on the lawyer) to send threatening letters?

How about pausing ans working WITH the police department to smooth out the process.

Provide them with as much information as possible and share what other municipalities are doing?

Refer them to a contact in a city where permits are being processed and tell them to follow suit?

Be respectful and direct them to Nappan and/or other lawyers for reference?

IMO waiting an extra 30 days for something that has never been available will go a long way to building good will with your local PD...
 

While it's true you catch more flies with honey than vinegar, it is also true this is not a new process.

We are always told ignorance of the law is no excuse. Just because many PD's may have never had to do this much before, it is still a well established law. If they can't figure it out in 60 days, the law clearly states the application is approved unless the applicant agrees to an extension on writing.

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10 hours ago, Brandyep said:

My local PD just told me "its all on hold" (all carry applicants) until they get further clarification on the requirements

They reiterated that they need use of force, safe handling and the NJSA 2C:39-6j

which they feel all of these courses that are going around may not be acceptable

 

That’s what strikeforce is for. Contact ANJRPC and they can get the ball rolling. 

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1 hour ago, maintenanceguy said:

Because cops are told all day "I'm going to sue you".  I think it's lost it's teeth.

We're not talking about a traffic incident or some schmuck who got arrested. 

If they are found within reason to have violated your civil rights, and state statutes, which is really just a game of will the clock run out? Why would a PD risk a very material court case and potential a huge financial burden? 

The plaintiff is the entire police department, the town itself... 

I wouldn't sit on a letter like that...

Between Bruen and the State statute, if the PD really can't figure it out in a timely manner... then actions become warranted.. 

I'm not saying to send the letter out now, but after 60 days, I would say send a damn letter acknowledging their time is up... contact the mayor... there is a number of things you could do. 

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7 hours ago, Mr.Stu said:

While it's true you catch more flies with honey than vinegar, it is also true this is not a new process.

We are always told ignorance of the law is no excuse. Just because many PD's may have never had to do this much before, it is still a well established law. If they can't figure it out in 60 days, the law clearly states the application is approved unless the applicant agrees to an extension on writing.

I think it's not the process, it's the qualifiers.....that is what the hangup is from what I am reading. 

There is interpretation of the requirements, that may seem ambiguous.

This should be expected, not tolerated, but expected till it gets sorted out.

Additionally, I did not multi quote, and this is not meant for you,  but I think with firearms it's better to fly below the radar, in lieu of projecting a very large signature. 

Threats of suits, damming letters lawyers oh my....  what a great way to alienate and put a bullseye on your back.

Now I am not saying roll over, but jeez....walk a bit softly..

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49 minutes ago, CAL. .30 M1 said:

I think it's not the process, it's the qualifiers.....that is what the hangup is from what I am reading. 

.........

Threats of suits, damming letters lawyers oh my....  what a great way to alienate and put a bullseye on your back.

Now I am not saying roll over, but jeez....walk a bit softly..

So we should play nice or else ..  from the very PDs we are supposed to build "alliance" with ? 
Qualifiers are as clear as they ever can be. They even have damn names to them HQC-1. There  is a published PDF we all shared that clearly describes that course of fires is for what. There is even clearly spelled out RPO, less stringent than HQC-1.

You want to know what PDs are pulling ?  Here is some directly from first hand experience posted on FB Pages:

1. Refusing to take application entirely claiming they dont have guidance - Massive Lie.
2. Records Staff disappeared completely without even lights on during working hours .
3. Sending reference letters, again, despite the actual application clearly has certification.

4. Demanding reference letters be notatized.
5. MANDATING social security number and drivers license number from references. Or else, application aint moving
6. THREATENING  language in reference letters about getting jammed up if  you are not truthful (how the F are you supposed to know someone so deeply that even PDs cannot dig dirt up )
7. Atleast one PD, are doing their own testing.  Treating their own tax payers like children and only way to get qualification is to show up to the PD range and shoot quals.  If you fail Quals 3 times, you ain't getting permit at all.

This BS is not the mark of good police departments. And no one should be laying low and play ball .. and fear for "or else".

There is MORE from Superior Courts.  Mr. Cheeseman (the guy with bunch of denials and cases) posted on FB saying once they even dug up "unpaid dog license". So yeah, thats the kinda shit they are pulling.

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39 minutes ago, CJack said:

So we should play nice or else ..  from the very PDs we are supposed to build "alliance" with ? 
Qualifiers are as clear as they ever can be. They even have damn names to them HQC-1. There  is a published PDF we all shared that clearly describes that course of fires is for what. There is even clearly spelled out RPO, less stringent than HQC-1.

You want to know what PDs are pulling ?  Here is some directly from first hand experience posted on FB Pages:

1. Refusing to take application entirely claiming they dont have guidance - Massive Lie.
2. Records Staff disappeared completely without even lights on during working hours .
3. Sending reference letters, again, despite the actual application clearly has certification.

4. Demanding reference letters be notatized.
5. MANDATING social security number and drivers license number from references. Or else, application aint moving
6. THREATENING  language in reference letters about getting jammed up if  you are not truthful (how the F are you supposed to know someone so deeply that even PDs cannot dig dirt up )
7. Atleast one PD, are doing their own testing.  Treating their own tax payers like children and only way to get qualification is to show up to the PD range and shoot quals.  If you fail Quals 3 times, you ain't getting permit at all.

This BS is not the mark of good police departments. And no one should be laying low and play ball .. and fear for "or else".

There is MORE from Superior Courts.  Mr. Cheeseman (the guy with bunch of denials and cases) posted on FB saying once they even dug up "unpaid dog license". So yeah, thats the kinda shit they are pulling.

Right it's on facebook it MUST be true.....

Look, it is possible that there are problems with local PD's and applicants as well....

My statements are not to alleviate the local pd or courts, who *may* be stonewalling, from allowing us to exercise our rights.

But you have GOT to be living in fantasy land if you thought this process was going to be smooth and easy.

You cannot take a state that has a history of anti 2A behavior to allow all of a sudden, due to a ruling from the SCOTUS, that this state was mot part of, to all of a sudden just be, " oh ok here are your permits "...no fuss no muss.

I don't put a lot of stock into stuff on facebook,, there are always two-sided to every story.

Shoot there is a thread on here about how to get passport photos...think about that, people applying to carry a deadly weapon for self defense and they can't figure out how to get a flipping passport photo done...  yea makes you wonder.

Again not to make an excuse for a PD that may be clueless as to what to do, or adding roadblocks etc. - but for Pete's sake - walk softly and use a big stick only if you have to.

Also if you are going to make stateme to as you have done above, citations and facts are appropriate- additionally if in fact that is happening- that is GREAT, and a win for us...

Why?  It will generate additional lawsuits to finally settle this once and for all, as it pertains to any onerous requirements and those abusing power.

In lieu of bitching on Facebook, who still does that BTW, get the information to the ANJRPC legal teams.

 

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1 hour ago, CJack said:

So we should play nice or else ..  from the very PDs we are supposed to build "alliance" with ? 
Qualifiers are as clear as they ever can be. They even have damn names to them HQC-1. There  is a published PDF we all shared that clearly describes that course of fires is for what. There is even clearly spelled out RPO, less stringent than HQC-1.

You want to know what PDs are pulling ?  Here is some directly from first hand experience posted on FB Pages:

1. Refusing to take application entirely claiming they dont have guidance - Massive Lie.
2. Records Staff disappeared completely without even lights on during working hours .
3. Sending reference letters, again, despite the actual application clearly has certification.

4. Demanding reference letters be notatized.
5. MANDATING social security number and drivers license number from references. Or else, application aint moving
6. THREATENING  language in reference letters about getting jammed up if  you are not truthful (how the F are you supposed to know someone so deeply that even PDs cannot dig dirt up )
7. Atleast one PD, are doing their own testing.  Treating their own tax payers like children and only way to get qualification is to show up to the PD range and shoot quals.  If you fail Quals 3 times, you ain't getting permit at all.

This BS is not the mark of good police departments. And no one should be laying low and play ball .. and fear for "or else".

There is MORE from Superior Courts.  Mr. Cheeseman (the guy with bunch of denials and cases) posted on FB saying once they even dug up "unpaid dog license". So yeah, thats the kinda shit they are pulling.

#3 happened in my town, but they gave me the applicant the letters and let us bring them to the reference to fill out and they let us return them. There was no threatening statements on there either.  My police department has been really great! I talked to Evan Nappen’s office yesterday and they said just have patience. If you did everything right, just have patience. They also confirmed that the entire application process must be completed in 60 days, including the superior court part. If not then would be the time to start discussing if there needs to be legal action. So far I think it everyone needs to take a deep breath and be patient.  The local PDs are learning just like we are. 

Side note.   We should all be thanking President Trump(the real President that actually won the 2020 election) for making this happen! If it wasnt for him our 2A rights would have been infringed on for the rest of our lives. Greatest President of all time! #FJB #LGB

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