joeg 3 Posted March 15, 2023 12 minutes ago, JackDaWack said: What does that mean? Proficiency is a measured metric. Unless the law requires you be proficient with the specific firearm, and in ways outlines what that means, it's not something that can be argued against you. If you've given reason to show you lack proficiency, you start down the path of things like reckless endangerment, manslaughter etc... essentially you put a bullet where it should never have gone. That is why YOU make sure YOU are proficient. It's not because you are worried a good shoot might question why you used that gun, but to prevent yourself from an unintended consequence turning a good shoot into a bad one. No restrictions mean no guns listed... Listing guns would appear to show a restriction. Mine says no restrictions and has the gun I qualified with... The problem with having no restrictions checked and having guns listed is that it will be confusing for cops when you're pulled over. To make it easier, it should say any gun registered, this way there's no ambiguity. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NJ2AMBR 8 Posted March 15, 2023 I would opine they would get you out a revised court order. Mine doesn’t have pistol info listed on card but all in court order 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ESB 240 Posted March 15, 2023 On 3/14/2023 at 12:05 PM, 124gr9mm said: For what it's worth, I'm in Morris county and I received a carry permit with a separate court order listing the firearms i qualified with and was allowed to carry. instructions indicated that I should contact the court to have additional firearms added. I contacted the Morris County Superior Court yesterday and they confirmed that I could send in proof of ownership and qualification for additional firearms and they would be added. Hunterdon County is the same I believe. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
124gr9mm 857 Posted March 15, 2023 2 hours ago, joeg said: So you can send in proof of ownership (model, serial #, etc) and then they issue a new card that lists the new guns? I heard from the PD that you could carry any gun you own, but what if you want to add 10 guns - I doubt there would be enough room. I wish they would just add a note that says something like 'Allowed to carry any gun registered to him/her' In my case there are no guns listed on the actual permit. The guns are listed on a separate court order (that needs to be with me when I'm carrying). The court says I can submit the additional paperwork and the additional guns would be added to the order. Should be a moot point in 2 years when i renew through my local PD and receive an unrestricted permit. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
joeg 3 Posted March 15, 2023 Just now, 124gr9mm said: In my case there are no guns listed on the actual permit. The guns are listed on a separate court order (that needs to be with me when I'm carrying). The court says I can submit the additional paperwork and the additional guns would be added to the order. Should be a moot point in 2 years when i renew through my local PD and receive an unrestricted permit. Oh. Another stupid thing is that nothing is uniform. 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JackDaWack 2,894 Posted March 15, 2023 2 hours ago, joeg said: Mine says no restrictions and has the gun I qualified with... The problem with having no restrictions checked and having guns listed is that it will be confusing for cops whenj 26th you're pulled over. To make it easier, it should say any gun registered, this way there's no ambiguity. The only thing at this point keeping anyone from carrying any firearm they own is a court order, which is accompanied by the check on the restrictions field. Cops or whoever should know that.. 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CMJeepster 2,766 Posted March 15, 2023 25 minutes ago, joeg said: Oh. Another stupid thing is that nothing is uniform. It's Jersey. What do you expect? 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tunaman 538 Posted March 15, 2023 Demonstrating proficiency is what the qualification is all about. If you dont have the qualiification sheet to prove your are proficient with that firearm, my quess is that you really aren't, and a prosecutor will have a field day with you. That is why Nappen says carry the guns you qualified with and can prove it. I believe the cops can only carry what they qualify with...but I may be wrong. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Vdep217 61 Posted March 15, 2023 3 hours ago, JackDaWack said: What does that mean? Proficiency is a measured metric. Unless the law requires you be proficient with the specific firearm, and in ways outlines what that means, it's not something that can be argued against you. If you've given reason to show you lack proficiency, you start down the path of things like reckless endangerment, manslaughter etc... essentially you put a bullet where it should never have gone. That is why YOU make sure YOU are proficient. It's not because you are worried a good shoot might question why you used that gun, but to prevent yourself from an unintended consequence turning a good shoot into a bad one. No restrictions mean no guns listed... Listing guns would appear to show a restriction. They will scrutinize every aspect of it right down to the smallest detail. As for the restrictions part my permit is checked unrestricted and I have no court order but firearms I qualified with are listed Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JackDaWack 2,894 Posted March 15, 2023 1 hour ago, Vdep217 said: They will scrutinize every aspect of it right down to the smallest detail. As for the restrictions part my permit is checked unrestricted and I have no court order but firearms I qualified with are listed Then carry what you want so long you own it. The permit is unrestricted, unless you have a court order. Guns being listed on a permit with no instructions or restrictions.... is meaningless. You are not breaking a law by carrying a gun not listed on your permit. 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tunaman 538 Posted March 15, 2023 I believe the "restrictions" box on the permit was for security guards that were "restricted" to carry only while at work or on the job. I dont think that box has anything to do with what guns you can carry. The problem comes when you shoot somebody and you haven't qualified with the gun you shot him with. This state will ruin your life forever in that scenario. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Vdep217 61 Posted March 15, 2023 28 minutes ago, Tunaman said: I believe the "restrictions" box on the permit was for security guards that were "restricted" to carry only while at work or on the job. I dont think that box has anything to do with what guns you can carry. The problem comes when you shoot somebody and you haven't qualified with the gun you shot him with. This state will ruin your life forever in that scenario. There is three boxes unrestricted see below and see order. If it said see below than I'd be restricted to guns listed. A buddy has an order and he has see order checked with guns listed and he can nit carry in vehicle. He is having it ammended Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
45Doll 5,848 Posted March 15, 2023 27 minutes ago, Tunaman said: I believe the "restrictions" box on the permit was for security guards that were "restricted" to carry only while at work or on the job. I dont think that box has anything to do with what guns you can carry. This is correct. 27 minutes ago, Tunaman said: The problem comes when you shoot somebody and you haven't qualified with the gun you shot him with. This state will ruin your life forever in that scenario. Doesn't successfully hitting a perp in a justifiable shooting demonstrate your qualification for carrying that handgun? If you missed the perp and accidentally shot someone else, I could understand. But you're right about prosecutions. This is New Jersey. And like the 'everything is banned from the get-go' statute principles, it's also their 'you should never have defended yourself and let the criminal get on with it' attitude that we have to anticipate. 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Regular Guy 264 Posted March 16, 2023 9/7/2022: I dropped off my application to NJSP Woodstown station. 12/21/2022: References contacted. 1/26/2023: I emailed NJSP at Woodstown for update. They said since the Judges were taken out of the process on 12/23/2022, my app may or may not go to court, depending on when it gets processed in Trenton. No word since then. Today makes 190 calendar days since I dropped it off. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Dude,Sweet 4 Posted March 16, 2023 So, quick question: For those who submitted to the courts and are still waiting, are you not able to submit another app to your township/local PD and ask for a refund from the state? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mr.Stu 1,884 Posted March 16, 2023 3 hours ago, Tunaman said: I believe the "restrictions" box on the permit was for security guards that were "restricted" to carry only while at work or on the job. I dont think that box has anything to do with what guns you can carry. The problem comes when you shoot somebody and you haven't qualified with the gun you shot him with. This state will ruin your life forever in that scenario. This only makes sense if you claim you didn't mean to shoot the person. If you shoot someone and claim self defense, you not only admit that you shot them, but that you intended to. What prosecutor is going to see any benefit in claiming that you are not capable of doing what you said you intended to do, but instead claim that you hit your target by accident? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
joeg 3 Posted March 16, 2023 3 hours ago, Tunaman said: I believe the "restrictions" box on the permit was for security guards that were "restricted" to carry only while at work or on the job. I dont think that box has anything to do with what guns you can carry. The problem comes when you shoot somebody and you haven't qualified with the gun you shot him with. This state will ruin your life forever in that scenario. That makes sense, given these are the same permits they've been using for years. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tunaman 538 Posted March 16, 2023 25 minutes ago, Mr.Stu said: This only makes sense if you claim you didn't mean to shoot the person. If you shoot someone and claim self defense, you not only admit that you shot them, but that you intended to. What prosecutor is going to see any benefit in claiming that you are not capable of doing what you said you intended to do, but instead claim that you hit your target by accident? I just think that the prosecuting attorney(NJ) would try to use that against you. If you didn't qualify with the gun then you should not have been carrying it in the first place. That is the argument they will use guaranteed. Just my opinion of course. I hope none of this ever happens. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Dooly 41 Posted March 16, 2023 On 3/14/2023 at 8:07 AM, MB24 said: What is it your trying to accomplish. To carry something not on the qualified list? I'm only trying to get clarification on what's been printed on the back of the permit. That is... No restrictions BUT there is a list of the firearms that were used to qualify. So if there are "None" restrictions, what's the list for? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
45Doll 5,848 Posted March 16, 2023 6 minutes ago, Dooly said: So if there are "None" restrictions, what's the list for? It's a statement of fact that you did in fact qualify with one or more handguns. End of statement. 1 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JackDaWack 2,894 Posted March 16, 2023 14 hours ago, Tunaman said: I believe the "restrictions" box on the permit was for security guards that were "restricted" to carry only while at work or on the job. I dont think that box has anything to do with what guns you can carry. The problem comes when you shoot somebody and you haven't qualified with the gun you shot him with. This state will ruin your life forever in that scenario. I think the point is to avoid confusion if it's presented to LEO. If the box is checked, or an order is present and you also have guns listed in either case. If nothing is checked off in those 3 boxes, your permit falls squarely under current law. Those 3 boxes establish any modifications you must follow. If any of the boxes are checked, I would carry only what is listed, if listed, regardless of what "restricted" applied to in the past. Just to CYA. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Dooly 41 Posted March 16, 2023 Thanks all but it's ridiculous that it's soo ambiguous and not even attorneys know the exact answer. The only legitimate legal advice I received from an actual 2A attorney is..."best to err on the side of caution and carry only what is listed but if I carry something else, at least get qualified with that just in case something happens so I can try to use that in court as supporting information for whatever the case may be." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JackDaWack 2,894 Posted March 16, 2023 57 minutes ago, 45Doll said: It's a statement of fact that you did in fact qualify with one or more handguns. End of statement. Without "instructions" for the permit holder as to why the guns are listed, I came to the same conclusion. Those 3 checkboxes establish a condition must be met for the permit to be valid, no check no conditions. My court order specifically states if I carry anything other than the listed firearms, my permit is revoked. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Malaka 4 Posted March 16, 2023 58 minutes ago, Dooly said: I'm only trying to get clarification on what's been printed on the back of the permit. That is... No restrictions BUT there is a list of the firearms that were used to qualify. So if there are "None" restrictions, what's the list for? I don't think you'll find a good answer for this. The list is to show what handguns you qualified with. Whether they are gonna expect or claim that's what your limited to carrying is up to whoever is scrutinizing it. Every county, court and PD has been doing this differently for everyone. There is no correct answer because telling you to ignore it and it's just a list without a disclaimer is bad advice. No restrictions, no court order, law says anything you own. That's what I'm gonna follow. But I know there could be that one guy out there who is convinced I'm limited to what's listed and I'll have some headaches. Let's be honest here, we've heard of instances where cops don't know the law and it gets cleared up in court but do you wanna deal with that? That's kinda your decision and your risk to take. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
124gr9mm 857 Posted March 16, 2023 1 hour ago, Dooly said: Thanks all but it's ridiculous that it's soo ambiguous and not even attorneys know the exact answer. The only legitimate legal advice I received from an actual 2A attorney is..."best to err on the side of caution and carry only what is listed but if I carry something else, at least get qualified with that just in case something happens so I can try to use that in court as supporting information for whatever the case may be." Sounds like reasonable guidance... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JackDaWack 2,894 Posted March 16, 2023 1 hour ago, Malaka said: I don't think you'll find a good answer for this. The list is to show what handguns you qualified with. Whether they are gonna expect or claim that's what your limited to carrying is up to whoever is scrutinizing it. Every county, court and PD has been doing this differently for everyone. There is no correct answer because telling you to ignore it and it's just a list without a disclaimer is bad advice. No restrictions, no court order, law says anything you own. That's what I'm gonna follow. But I know there could be that one guy out there who is convinced I'm limited to what's listed and I'll have some headaches. Let's be honest here, we've heard of instances where cops don't know the law and it gets cleared up in court but do you wanna deal with that? That's kinda your decision and your risk to take. It's not a disclaimer.. The permit has literal instructions to follow if they are present for it to be valid. A cop can make any claim about anything. If no guns are listed, can't they just claim you don't have any guns you can carry if this is the standing argument? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
joeg 3 Posted March 16, 2023 3 hours ago, JackDaWack said: Without "instructions" for the permit holder as to why the guns are listed, I came to the same conclusion. Those 3 checkboxes establish a condition must be met for the permit to be valid, no check no conditions. My court order specifically states if I carry anything other than the listed firearms, my permit is revoked. If you have a court order, then you're restricted to the guns on the court order. I'd love to force some gang member to read this thread, as part of their punishment and see how many times they laugh at how paranoid we all are to follow the law precisely. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Malaka 4 Posted March 16, 2023 2 hours ago, JackDaWack said: It's not a disclaimer.. The permit has literal instructions to follow if they are present for it to be valid. A cop can make any claim about anything. If no guns are listed, can't they just claim you don't have any guns you can carry if this is the standing argument? What I'm saying is some people said your good to go and carry anything you want. This is advice for those without a court order, essentially no restrictions box is ticked. Whether it lists the guns or not shouldn't matter as there is no restriction and no court order. Hence why people say its just a list of what you qualified with and nothing else. If you have a court order, unfortunately you must follow it entirely. Hence why the restrictions box may be checked for those individuals. But the disclaimer I'm talking about is a warning that even though it is no restrictions, you may have some trouble when it comes to an interaction as the police don't seem to be all on the same page. I can't flat out tell people carry anything you want/own without that disclaimer/warning. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
124gr9mm 857 Posted March 16, 2023 26 minutes ago, Malaka said: But the disclaimer I'm talking about is a warning that even though it is no restrictions, you may have some trouble when it comes to an interaction as the police don't seem to be all on the same page. I can't flat out tell people carry anything you want/own without that disclaimer/warning. Unless there are pistols listed on your permit or listed in a court order, the police won't have access to what you qualified for at the time of a stop. That means that if you're carrying a permit with 'no restrictions' and no guns listed, you're good to go. At a traffic stop it doesn't matter how well versed on gun laws (or not) the police may be, there's no latitude for them to do anything. Beyond that you could say "well cops can do whatever they want..." but that's true in any situation. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
45Doll 5,848 Posted March 16, 2023 People with a court order can carry the court order. If in fact I get a permit with No Restrictions checked (and no court order now) I'll have a copy of the statute with me. Just in case an officer is uninformed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites