qualification thread

[CJack 138]

3 minutes ago, High Exposure said:

This is some of the worst advice I have ever seen on this forum.

Money and time spent on a high stakes life saving defensive skill with abilities that degrade quickly without regular sustainment training is never, ever a waste. 

It’s not enough to just meet the minimum. We should always strive to improve. Always be a student.

Be good
Stay safe
Get training

Be an asset, not a liability.

 

LOL..in the context of getting the application done. I see people complain about prices at the range, confusion about what is required (again, for the application process), people worried they wont / cant do HQC or RPO qual or <<whatever qual>> without first taking hours and hours of some high priced lame 'courses'.

Beyond application process, should each person be prepared best they can be in terms of training, mindset, preparedness etc sure. But that doesnt happen by sitting in some lame ass course for hours and paying money.

Spend for the sake of actual learning and improving.

[DaddyNick 408]

Has anybody done the qualification at Bob's little sport shop yet? 

 

[Combat Auto 174]

On 7/9/2022 at 11:25 AM, Xtors said:

Related to the qualification thread. Found this over at ARFCOM. NJ law says the following:

2021 New Jersey Revised Statutes
Title 2C - The New Jersey Code of Criminal Justice
Section 2C:58-4 - Permits to carry handguns.

Universal Citation: NJ Rev Stat § 2C:58-4 (2021)

2C:58-4 Permits to carry handguns. 

2C:58-4. a. Scope and duration of authority. Any person who holds a valid permit to carry a handgun issued pursuant to this section shall be authorized to carry a handgun in all parts of this State, except as prohibited by subsection e. of N.J.S.2C:39-5. One permit shall be sufficient for all handguns owned by the holder thereof, but the permit shall apply only to a handgun carried by the actual and legal holder of the permit.

This says to me, qualify with whatever you want and carry whatever you want so long as you legally own them. And you can't carry someone else's handgun.

Thoughts?

Looks pretty straight forward to me. Just have to make sure there wasn't another revision after that...The usual argument comes up (analogues to the lack of knowledge of the NJ laws on HPs - legal to have in home and shoot at range), "well if a cop doesn't know this he will arrest you anyway"...To which the answer is, I can't worry about the legal knowledge of any given cop (I'd never leave home if I did - lol), I'm interested in the actual law.

On 7/9/2022 at 11:30 AM, CJack said:

Legal Eagles can interpret that different ways. But, personally, that will be least of our worries for now.

 

[CJack 138]

Looking at the GFH Qual calendar availability, looks like the initial "wave" of people rushing apply is over.

[CapGuns&SnapsKid 33]

On 7/6/2022 at 11:42 AM, ShootersShooter said:

I just qualified at Shooters Sporting Center, standard FBI-Q target 30 rounds, 10 ea. 5-7.5-10 yards, only need an 80% to pass. Heavy fiber board targets, couldn't bring it home, but I had a 6" spread, no reload drill, no support hand shooting. Conducted by retired State Police Officer. 

This is where I'm scheduled at...Aug 13th is my appt..

[ShootersShooter 120]

Good luck

[psychwarfare 5]

I have two quals scheduled. Only because one opened up at Range 129 after I booked at Bobs.

I have Range 129 in early August and Bob's mid August.

It looks like Range 129 uses the Q target and features firing from draw, single dominant and support hand shooting and starts at 1 yard?

Bob's is B27, shoot from ready. No single hand shooting. Bob's also posted the statute about carrying any gun once you qualify. 

Not yet sure how I want to handle this...

[Combat Auto 174]

To answer your question, ask yourself what advantage if any do you see in taking the "harder" test to get your permit? I don't see any personally...I train as hard as I want independent of the carry test.

[ShootersShooter 120]

I like challenges, a reasonable test that makes me concentrate & perform as best I can. The one I took was very easy 30 rounds on a FBI_Q target, 10, 7.5 & 5 yards, 10 rounds each. I had practiced out to 25 yards from low ready and one hand and support hand only at closer ranges. So now I'm looking for a training course a bit harder to learn & test myself.

[Xtors 333]

On 7/15/2022 at 3:57 PM, CapGuns&SnapsKid said:

This is where I'm scheduled at...Aug 13th is my appt..

For those that went to Shooters, what was the process for scheduling an appointment? Can the notarize the paperwork too? From the NJSP website:

Shooters Sporting Center
Tom Gormley
1535 Route 539
Little Egg Harbor, NJ 08087
609-296-4080
[email protected]
Dave Cope - Instructor
Call for appointment:
Cell 609-839-9830

 

[ShootersShooter 120]

Just call them to schedule. 

[JohnnyB 4,322]

On 7/9/2022 at 6:36 PM, DaddyNick said:

Has anybody done the qualification at Bob's little sport shop yet? 

 

I would like to know this as well.

[JohnnyB 4,322]

On 7/16/2022 at 7:09 PM, psychwarfare said:

I have two quals scheduled. Only because one opened up at Range 129 after I booked at Bobs.

I have Range 129 in early August and Bob's mid August.

It looks like Range 129 uses the Q target and features firing from draw, single dominant and support hand shooting and starts at 1 yard?

Bob's is B27, shoot from ready. No single hand shooting. Bob's also posted the statute about carrying any gun once you qualify. 

Not yet sure how I want to handle this...

What are the details on Bob's?  Distance, # of shots, passing score, etc.

My problem is I haven't been to a range for the past 3 years due to the pandemic bullshit and lack of a shooting partner.

 

I don't really care so much about NJ carry since I don't go anywhere nasty in NJ, but I need the NJ CCW to get a PA non resident permit for when I have to go to Philadelphia, which is nasty!

[psychwarfare 5]

3 hours ago, JohnnyB said:

What are the details on Bob's?  Distance, # of shots, passing score, etc.

My problem is I haven't been to a range for the past 3 years due to the pandemic bullshit and lack of a shooting partner.

 

I don't really care so much about NJ carry since I don't go anywhere nasty in NJ, but I need the NJ CCW to get a PA non resident permit for when I have to go to Philadelphia, which is nasty!

B27 Target

Ready Position 

15 shots at 7 yds

20 shots at 10 yds

10 shots at 15 yds

5 shots at 25 yds

Need 200/250 to pass

[GRIZ 3,369]

On 7/7/2022 at 2:10 PM, ShootersShooter said:

No extra charge. 80%(24/30) in a FBI Q target 5, 7.5 and 10 yards, 10 rounds at each distance to qualify.

What is the title of this course of fire?

[High Exposure 5,661]

15 minutes ago, GRIZ said:

What is the title of this course of fire?

“Gimme your money and we’ll sign your form”

[JohnnyB 4,322]

1 minute ago, High Exposure said:

“Gimme your money and we’ll sign your form”

The question is, Which will the state accept?

[GRIZ 3,369]

39 minutes ago, JohnnyB said:

The question is, Which will the state accept?

Good question

[CAL. .30 M1 2,101]

7 hours ago, GRIZ said:

What is the title of this course of fire?

^^^^^^This

7 hours ago, High Exposure said:

“Gimme your money and we’ll sign your form”

^^^^double this

6 hours ago, GRIZ said:

Good question

^^^^^^^triple this

 

So much guess work, as I said in another thread, saw some guy at CR using NRA targets..where everything I have seen for any 'real' quals in NJ are Q targets....

My guess is that HQC-1 is what it will be....

Now the question remains, if you qualified using some.other course of fire, is your app going to be accepted? 

If it is not, is your instructor going to make good on fleecing you of green...or is it caveat emptor?

 

[Combat Auto 174]

On 7/17/2022 at 1:24 PM, ShootersShooter said:

 

Apologies Shooter, not sure why the system will not let me post without the above....

Independently, one would assume that the test would be standardized, but the only way that will happen is if NJ had a central bureaucracy running the shoot. We don't want that. The state troopers running it? Meh, not a good idea even if you can get an appointment...

They have it set up pretty decently, a qualified instructor runs the shoot.

Now here is the problem, in the past, what 90% of these quals, maybe more were aimed at retired leos. Maybe they are justified to require them to meet a higher qual, maybe not, I don't know...

But with the Mega Ruling several weeks ago all that changed. Now there will be many non-retired leos looking to qual. I personally do not think it makes sense to ask a person who wants to defend themselves legally to have to prove it at 25 yards. In reality it gives them the wrong impression of a legal self defense shoot. Where is that #? Who knows, i would say 10 yards, 15 Y tops.

This is NOT training, train all you want on your own, shoot at 25 y often and 50 y from time to time (that is what I do), but for those who want the right to basic SD outside the home it it is perfectly reasonable to require 30 or 45 feet max. You should see (short distance) standards in some of the free states, they will shock and awe you. And of course there are also many other states with Constitutional Carry.

Be careful what you wish for.

[Mr.Stu 1,916]

I am pretty much set up to run quals. Email me at [email protected] to make a booking.

Currently quals will be held at Phillipsburg Pistol Club where, in order to prevent a high volume of quals from preventing the general membership from using the facilities, the range can be booked from 8am-12pm Monday thru Thursday. I need to give them some notice to make the range booking and it needs to fit in with my day job. Right now, I could take a booking for Thursday morning (7/21) but you need to let me know today. Future sessions will available depending on my work schedule. I am also working on getting approval to run quals at EFGA which should make some evenings and weekends possible. It will take 20-30 minutes per person, per gun and I would prefer small groups rather than set up for just 1 person.

The CoF will be HQC1 - 60 rounds at a Q target from 1 to 25 yards.

You'll need to bring:

1. the gun(s) you intend to carry
2. 60 rounds per gun
3. 2 magazines or a speedloader (there is a mandatory reload on the clock in the CoF)
4. a strong side hip holster (IWB or OWB is fine. No AIWB, SoB or shoulder holsters allowed)
5. a magazine/speedloader pouch is useful but not required
6. eye & ear protection
7. Appropriate outdoor gear (sun hat, rain jacket, etc.)

I will be signing the certification based on the shooter scoring a minimum of 80% (48 hits) and observed safe gun handling. Safe gun handling will be assessed based on the well established rules that have been used in IDPA/USPSA/ICORE for years.

The fees will be $65 per person for the first gun and $40 for each additional gun during the same session.

N.B. When you sign the qualification certificate you will be attesting that you have read the New Jersey Statutes pertaining to your responsibilities and liabilities regarding carrying a handgun, N.J.S.A. 2C:3-1, et seq. These statutes describe the laws pertaining to use of force in NJ. I am not qualified to teach use of force and will not be doing so. This is purely a certificate to satisfy N.J.A.C. 13:54-2.4 (b). I will include a copy of my certification as an NRA Instructor to satisfy N.J.A.C. 13:54-2.4 (c).

[Mr.Stu 1,916]

6 minutes ago, Combat Auto said:

But with the Mega Ruling several weeks ago all that changed. Now there will be many non-retired leos looking to qual. I personally do not think it makes sense to ask a person who wants to defend themselves legally to have to prove it at 25 yards. In reality it gives them the wrong impression of a legal self defense shoot. Where is that #? Who knows, i would say 10 yards, 15 Y tops.

This is NOT training, train all you want on your own, shoot at 25 y often and 50 y from time to time (that is what I do), but for those who want the right to basic SD outside the home it it is perfectly reasonable to require 30 or 45 feet max. You should see (short distance) standards in some of the free states, they will shock and awe you. And of course there are also many other states with Constitutional Carry

As much as I disagree with State mandated tests, I also disagree with this mindset. Check out the mall shooting in Indiana this weekend. The good guy engaged the perp at 50 yards. Did he take some risk doing that? Sure. Did he save the day? Abso-frickin-lutely!

The bad guy had a rifle. You are not safe from incoming fire that originates outside your "45 feet max" bubble. As a permit holder, you need to know your skills and abilities and be able to decide in a split second if the risk of you missing the bad guy outweighs the certain carnage that the bad guy is inflicting.

[ShootersShooter 120]

To: Combat Auto

I wasn't advocating long, difficult qualifications. I agree 10-15 yard max for basic civilian self-defense is quite adequate. I simply related that based on info I received prior to qualifying I practiced things not required when I did and am very aware of the difference between practice and training and never implied that the test was sufficient in itself to prepare a gun owner for defensive situations. The skills needed are, indeed, a life-long learning experience. I wish everyone here best luck in whatever test they go through, and hope they continue to hone the skills necessary for their safety.

[Combat Auto 174]

14 minutes ago, Mr.Stu said:

As much as I disagree with State mandated tests, I also disagree with this mindset. Check out the mall shooting in Indiana this weekend. The good guy engaged the perp at 50 yards. Did he take some risk doing that? Sure. Did he save the day? Abso-frickin-lutely!

The bad guy had a rifle. You are not safe from incoming fire that originates outside your "45 feet max" bubble. As a permit holder, you need to know your skills and abilities and be able to decide in a split second if the risk of you missing the bad guy outweighs the certain carnage that the bad guy is inflicting.

LOL, I was expecting someone to say this...Sorry, we are not being qualified to go on the offense. Some people with carry may want to, but some people may not. It is called self defense with a hand gun.

That kid was an absolute hero, but not every has the skills, guts, and mental acuity to do so.

Ridiculous to say that is the standard for everyone who wants the basic right to self defense outside the home.

You want to train to take out mass shooters, kudos, but don't require Granny to have to do it too.

[Mr.Stu 1,916]

5 minutes ago, Combat Auto said:

LOL, I was expecting someone to say this...Sorry, we are not being qualified to go on the offense. Some people with carry may want to, but some people may not. It is called self defense with a hand gun.

That kid was an absolute hero, but not every has the skills, guts, and mental acuity to do so.

Ridiculous to say that is the standard for everyone who wants the basic right to self defense outside the home.

You want to train to take out mass shooters, kudos, but don't require Granny to have to do it too.

Your inference was that a shot greater than 45 feet is not self defense, and now you imply that what the kid in Indiana was "go on the offensive". My mind is boggled that the Indiana situation could be perceived as anything but defensive. The kid was in no way the aggressor.

[Combat Auto 174]

7 minutes ago, Mr.Stu said:

Your inference was that a shot greater than 45 feet is not self defense, and now you imply that what the kid in Indiana was "go on the offensive". My mind is boggled that the Indiana situation could be perceived as anything but defensive. The kid was in no way the aggressor.

Do you honestly believe that everyone who want to get a carry permit for SD needs to be proficient at 40-50 yards with a pistol? It tells me you don't understand the law in NJ or have much knowledge of a SD encounter.

I am not telling YOU not to have that skill, I am telling you it is ridiculous that you think everyone with a carry should be forced to have that level of proficiency. You're not even understanding the Constitution with that mind set.

[Mr.Stu 1,916]

1 minute ago, Combat Auto said:

Do you honestly believe that everyone who want to get a carry permit for SD needs to be proficient at 40-50 yards with a pistol? It tells me you don't understand the law in NJ or have much knowledge of a SD encounter.

I am not telling YOU not to have that skill, I am telling you it is ridiculous that you think everyone with a carry should be forced to have that level of proficiency. Your not even understanding the Constitution with that mind set.

As I stated before, I do not agree with State mandated tests at all.

I also do not agree with the notion that self defense encounters only happen within 15 yards.

Distance is only a consideration in a deadly force legal defense when determining the imminence of the threat. A guy with a knife at 50 yards is not an imminent threat to you (but may be to someone else so deadly force may be justified in defense of another). A guy with a rifle can absolutely be an imminent threat to you at 50 yards. 

[Combat Auto 174]

9 minutes ago, Mr.Stu said:

As I stated before, I do not agree with State mandated tests at all.

I also do not agree with the notion that self defense encounters only happen within 15 yards.

Distance is only a consideration in a deadly force legal defense when determining the imminence of the threat. A guy with a knife at 50 yards is not an imminent threat to you (but may be to someone else so deadly force may be justified in defense of another). A guy with a rifle can absolutely be an imminent threat to you at 50 yards. 

Nobody said that SD "only" happen to 15 Y...The discussion is what should people be expected to qualify at...We all know the statistics on self defense encounters, no one has to repeat them, they are MOSTLY amazingly close. Much closer than 15 yards...

So are you going to require everyone to qualify at 50Y when it is an extremely unlikely event. An amazingly extremely unlikely event.

If you do you will be helping the Lefty, not too many people are going to be getting their carry permits. In fact you might be giving Murphy a new idea for a law, raise the requirement to 50Y qaul. 

[Mr.Stu 1,916]

1 minute ago, Combat Auto said:

Nobody said that SD "only" happen to 15 Y...

Except you, that is

1 hour ago, Combat Auto said:

In reality it gives them the wrong impression of a legal self defense shoot. Where is that #? Who knows, i would say 10 yards, 15 Y tops

I never said I thought everybody should be made to qualify at greater distances. I said, twice in fact, that I thought nobody should be made to qualify at all.

What I DID say, was that self defense can easily happen at greater distances. Indiana is an extreme example, an outlier even, but "15 Y tops" is not realistic.

Just to be absolutely clear: I do not believe that anybody should have to do a test in order to exercise their Constitutionally protected right to carry a firearm for self defense.

I also believe exercising a right carries responsibility, one of which is understanding lawful use of force. To suggest that shooting beyond 15 yards is not or cannot be self defense is just plain wrong.

[Combat Auto 174]

1 hour ago, Mr.Stu said:

. To suggest that shooting beyond 15 yards is not or cannot be self defense is just plain wrong.

Check your "inferral" skills, I don't know anyone who said such a thing...What I did say, it is reasonable to qualify people up to 30-45 feet max. To which you responded and started this debate, and now have change it to no qual at all. So the entire discussion in moot at this point.