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qualification thread

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5 minutes ago, DAHL said:

Requiring civilians to pass a test designed for law enforcement that have  police academy training is asinine.

 Lets also not forget that we are qualifying with compact carry pistols with short barrels around 3".

On the other hand, if you shoot much at all it’s pretty easy to pass the full HQC1 course.  Even with a 3” bbl pistol. 
 

I’m not saying it should be a requirement, just that it’s not much of a barrier. 

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2 hours ago, DAHL said:

It has become obvious to me that Tactical Training is NOT the place to try to qual. The qual that they use is just about the FBI/Police qual.  There is NO reason to put people that wish to carry through such a stringent test. All the law says is that you must demonstrate proficiency with the pistols that you will carry. Thats it.  Requiring civilians to pass a test designed for law enforcement that have  police academy training is asinine. In view of this I urge all of you that wish to qual  to avoid the Tactical Training Center in Flemington, NJ.  The fact that TTC is reporting a high failure rate only proves that they want you to fail and spend more money doing the qual all over again. I totally disagree with the last sentence from ESB. You can be very proficient shooting 50 shots from the ready position (fast and slow) at a Q target at 15, 10, and 7 yards (R-L). Lets also not forget that we are qualifying with compact carry pistols with short barrels around 3".

Total nonsense.  I qualified at TTC last Sunday, and it was a piece of cake.  It is NOT the police qualification, and only goes out to 15 yards.  We had 16 people in our group, and one person failed.  He failed because he did not know how to operate his pistol.  They did the qualifications in two groups of eight people.  The guy next to me lost count of his rounds and only shot 38 of 50.  They let him go in the 2nd group and he passed, no problem.  The staff at TTC is fantastic, and extremely supportive.

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Regardless, a qual is mandatory.

So, instead of wishing for an easier test, work to be a better shooter.

25 yard shots with a 3” barrel is not a challenge - unless you never train at that distance.

ETA: I just wanted to say that Pre-Covid, I was a member at @TacticalTrainingCenter.  

I went just about every other Wednesday evening after work for a couple years. For almost a year we ended up having almost an informal NJGF meet up there, with a mix of 4 or 6 forum members meeting on the regular. I have only been back a few times in the last 6 months or so, and in my experience, nothing has changed. The staff is as pleasant, helpful, and eager to share their knowledge and experience as they ever were.

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20 hours ago, DAHL said:

It has become obvious to me that Tactical Training is NOT the place to try to qual. The qual that they use is just about the FBI/Police qual.  There is NO reason to put people that wish to carry through such a stringent test. All the law says is that you must demonstrate proficiency with the pistols that you will carry. Thats it.  Requiring civilians to pass a test designed for law enforcement that have  police academy training is asinine. In view of this I urge all of you that wish to qual  to avoid the Tactical Training Center in Flemington, NJ.  The fact that TTC is reporting a high failure rate only proves that they want you to fail and spend more money doing the qual all over again. I totally disagree with the last sentence from ESB. You can be very proficient shooting 50 shots from the ready position (fast and slow) at a Q target at 15, 10, and 7 yards (R-L). Lets also not forget that we are qualifying with compact carry pistols with short barrels around 3".

It was not that stringent. 15 yards is not that far.  Can you draw, fire, hit the target from 2-15yrds 80% of the time, and reload your gun safely on command in a very reasonable time limit?  I passed very easily with 50 out of 50 mostly in a tight group with a 3.3" gun and I don't consider myself a great shot.  The majority of the issues where because people were not proficient enough with their guns to either operate them properly or safely under just a little stress.  Imagine what would happen in a real world life or death situation.  These people would be putting innocent by standers at risk.  

There were people who could not operate the safety, could not operate the slide lock, could not seat the mag properly when reloading, where flagging people when reloading, or could not even hit the paper.  If you feel you are this bad with your gun and can't pass, don't go somewhere else that doesn't actually test you.  You have a much higher chance of winding up in jail or dead and making the rest of the CCW community look bad and be an example to the gun grabbers why CCW needs to be more restrictive.  Just don't do it.  

If you think you cannot pass the simple test TTC gives, you really should not carry until you are proficient enough to do so.  Buying some $10 snap caps and doing some dry fire training with your gun at home would have helped these people tremendously.  

You don't just go out and buy a gun and think you can CCW.  You should be experienced, you should be proficient, you should be able to hit a large paper target at 15 yards that isn't shooting back at you.  

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5 minutes ago, ESB said:

 

It was not that stringent. 15 yards is not that far.  Can you draw, fire, hit the target from 2-15yrds 80% of the time, and reload your gun safely on command in a very reasonable time limit?  I passed very easily with 50 out of 50 mostly in a tight group with a 3.3" gun and I don't consider myself a great shot.  The majority of the issues where because people were not proficient enough with their guns to either operate them properly or safely under just a little stress.  Imagine what would happen in a real world life or death situation.  These people would be putting innocent by standers at risk.  

There were people who could not operate the safety, could not operate the slide lock, could not seat the mag properly when reloading, where flagging people when reloading, or could not even hit the paper.  If you feel you are this bad with your gun and can't pass, don't go somewhere else that doesn't actually test you.  You have a much higher chance of winding up in jail or dead and making the rest of the CCW community look bad and be an example to the gun grabbers why CCW needs to be more restrictive.  Just don't do it.  

If you think you cannot pass the simple test TTC gives, you really should not carry until you are proficient enough to do so.  Buying some $10 snap caps and doing some dry fire training with your gun at home would have helped these people tremendously.  

You don't just go out and buy a gun and think you can CCW.  You should be experienced, you should be proficient, you should be able to hit a large paper target at 15 yards.  

Very well said.  If you can’t score above 90% out to 15 yards, you have no business carrying a gun.  I saw so many people that looked like they just bought their gun and then tried to qualify, but failed.  Couldn’t even perform basic safe handling.  Do us all a favor and practice, get some training, and then try to qualify.  

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On 8/30/2022 at 7:39 AM, DAHL said:

I live in a rural area at the junction of Somerset, Hunterdon and Mercer Counties where there are many small and medium size family farms. My qual was done on a farm with an NRA complaint range constructed and owned by a friend. It is my friends private range not open to the public.  He chooses to remain anonymous. The instructor held a 3 hour class on safety and the use of legal force before I started. The qual was based somewhat upon the RPO requirement by a certified NRA instructor who is also certified to do the police qual. It was done sitting, standing, two hand, single hand, right hand and left hand. You can find many instructors who work for ranges that are listed on the NJ state police website who could come out to your private range if you have one .  I wouldn't call the qual easy but I shot over 90% with a Glock 26.

This sounds like a similar qual that TTC is doing but TTC only goes out to 15yards and there was no sitting or weak hand shooting.  Why do you think the one you took was easy for you but TTC's with less requirements is overly stringent?   

What I saw was that TTC's qual method worked and exposed those that were not proficient.  I was just surprised so many people showed up that hadn't practiced in a while and thought they would pass.  Without looking at the scores, just by watching them shoot I knew who was going to fail.  For most who failed, it was pretty obvious.  TTC did not want people to fail, and even helped out and gave extra time to some if they had to reload if the course of fire did not call for a reload.  

 

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45 minutes ago, ESB said:

This sounds like a similar qual that TTC is doing but TTC only goes out to 15yards and there was no sitting or weak hand shooting.  Why do you think the one you took was easy for you but TTC's with less requirements is overly stringent?   

Holster draw?

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Yes, most of the stuff was Holster Draw, but some was from ready position.  The idea was to see how you handled the gun in the ready position and make sure you kept it safe.  

They did 2 hand, strong hand, holstered, ready position, standing and kneeling.  2-15yrds. 

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I have had some people come to me for quals and within the first mag I could tell they were not sufficiently proficient to pass the qual. Some can't get even half their shots on the paper at 25 yards. Most have never used a holster before. It is amazing how many people feel the need to support the holster with their support hand while putting the gun into the holster and as a result sweep their support hand with the muzzle of  loaded pistol - never a good thing.

To their credit, all of these people I have worked with accept that they had no idea how any things they need to be aware of to be able to safely handle their gun and I have been providing classes for they to develop the knowledge that they weren't even aware that they were missing. I even have one guy, that after he has fired however many shots in a string, he takes his finger off the trigger and indexes it - no issue. But when he brings the gun down into a low ready position, his finger goes back inside the trigger guard - big issue.

I think, for a lot of casual or new gun owners, there are several safety considerations that they just don't know about and develop bad habits while standing in a shooting port.

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45 minutes ago, Mr.Stu said:

I think, for a lot of casual or new gun owners, there are several safety considerations that they just don't know about and develop bad habits while standing in a shooting port.

As trainers/coaches the ability to guide someone through the four levels of achievement  - from level 1 (unconscious Incompetence) through at least a solid grounded base at level 3 (conscious competence) and a glimpse at level 4 (unconscious competence) is priority. As is giving the trainee the tools necessary to obtain and remain in level 4 for many of the task associated with gunfighting.

Sometimes the hardest part is navigating through level one where the student has no frame of reference and doesn’t know what they don’t know. This is usually worse in students with egos and student who base their knowledge on movies and video games. With patience and a strong curriculum, you can usually punch through - but damn, it’s difficult and sometimes the “rule of 100” has to be applied. 

45 minutes ago, Mr.Stu said:

I even have one guy, that after he has fired however many shots in a string, he takes his finger off the trigger and indexes it - no issue. But when he brings the gun down into a low ready position, his finger goes back inside the trigger guard - big issue.

This is more common than you would hope. I see this the most when teaching low-light classes. Even very experienced shooters feel a need to re-assure themselves that the trigger did not disappear with the coming of the dark-monster by touching it when they shouldn’t be. It’s weird.

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1 hour ago, High Exposure said:

Sometimes the hardest part is navigating through level one where the student has no frame of reference and doesn’t know what they don’t know. This is usually worse in students with egos and student who base their knowledge on movies and video games. With patience and a strong curriculum, you can usually punch through - but damn, it’s difficult

It hardest ones to help are those that think they know things and you have to break that down in order to build good techniques and skills from a firm foundation. Although it takes a good deal of instruction, an absolutely green student is easier because they are starting from a clean slate.

1 hour ago, High Exposure said:

sometimes the “rule of 100” has to be applied.

Not familiar with that. What is "rule of 100"?

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9 minutes ago, Mr.Stu said:

It hardest ones to help are those that think they know things and you have to break that down in order to build good techniques and skills from a firm foundation. Although it takes a good deal of instruction, an absolutely green student is easier because they are starting from a clean slate.

Ego. Ego is what makes teaching people (especially guys) to shoot difficult. Every guy inherently thinks they can drive, shoot, fight, and fuck. The second you tell them different, ego gets involved. Then it’s a battle. Students need to let go of ego.

That’s why female students rule. No ego involved in learning new skills. They listen, process, and are able to put the lesson into action without ego. So much better.

9 minutes ago, Mr.Stu said:

Not familiar with that. What is "rule of 100"?

I’ll try to teach you a skill 100 times. After that, if you aren’t getting it, you’re on your own.

You ever see an instructor-student interaction change from: “here, let me show you; do it like this.” to *smile* “having fun? OK! Great!” And moves on to the next student. That’s “The Rule of 100” in action.

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Reminds me of when I was in bootcamp.  Prior to joining the military, I was busting my ass working two jobs.  Bootcamp was fairly easy for me, but not for most.  The goal of drill instructors is to break people down to the same basic level.  Get rid of the egos.  Shave everyone’s head and get them into the same clothing.  Remove individuality.  Get people to work as a team.  Teach very basic skills at the level of the least common denominator.  Seems pretty simple.  Au contraire!  The simple act of following basic instructions to fold underwear and tee shirts was mind boggling to some.  Nothing against people from the south, but they seemed like the slowest, weakest link in the bunch.  No matter how many times you teach them how to fold a tee shirt, they still managed to screw it up.  Think of the movie Platoon.  Plenty of examples in that movie.  

Where am I going with this, and how does this apply to this thread?  No matter how hard you try to teach someone something, they just may not be able to focus and absorb what you are telling them.  It could be nerves, lack of confidence, lack of concentration, or they just don’t give a damn.  That’s why it’s so important that instructors doing CCW qualifications do not just push people through and pass them if they don’t know the basics of handgun safety, operation and marksmanship.  Fail them and make them practice some more and pay to qualify again.  We shouldn’t settle for mediocrity just to have more people with guns on their hips.  Let’s prove the left wrong by promoting safe and responsible concealed carry.  

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I had  to go through  HQC1 and HQC2 it was intense glad  i practiced  for  a couple  months  straight  live  and dry fire with laser trainer  in basement.  We had to draw  from OWB holster  reload  shooting  was from 1  to 25 Yds  and including  last 40 rounds  in dark holding  flashlights  oh and the first  part also  included  one handed shooting  both strong and weak  hand.

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10 minutes ago, Wrigs4095 said:

I had  to go through  HQC1 and HQC2 it was intense glad  i practiced  for  a couple  months  straight  live  and dry fire with laser trainer  in basement.  We had to draw  from OWB holster  reload  shooting  was from 1  to 25 Yds  and including  last 40 rounds  in dark holding  flashlights  oh and the first  part also  included  one handed shooting  both strong and weak  hand.

That would have been HNQC, not HQC2.

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No one can convince me that a timed qual draw from holster and down on your knees is a fair nor is a timed reload and fire sequence.    Maybe for an egoist or LEO but not for the average gun owner.   As a long time gun owner,  I did the qual standing ( 10 rds sitting) at the ready (Glock 26/Ruger LC9) out to 20 yds, 10 yds, 7 yds and 3 yds,  slow fire, rapid fire with a segment using the off hand and scored 49 out of 50 on the target and easily passed. The GFH qual is very similar to this and I consider that very adequate for a civilian.  Passing should indicate safety and proficiency to hit the target. In NJ the CCW applicant is being  vetted far more stringently than anyone applying for a carry license in other states. I didn't take the TTC qual as it presents a far fetched scenario to new gun owners, seniors and women as most self defense situations are done standing within 15 feet with few shots being necessary, but at times you can never satisfy the "what if" and "may issue" people among some gun owners.

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All that the law requires is to "demonstrate thorough familiarity with the use and safe handling" of your firearm.

It's up to the discretion of the instructor what he or she needs to see in order to have faith that you have met the requirement above.

Since using a firearm for self defense so rarely happens at distances over 10 yards,  I personally don't think it's necessary to shoot out to 25 yards. There's also no requirement in the law for a certain number of rounds, or even a specific score to pass.  Since the HCQ1, HCQ2, and RPO courses of fire require a score of 80, I think everyone has adopted that as the standard, even though there really is no standard score for non-LEO qualifiers.

What I do think is critical is safe handling.  Don't muzzle your fingers, don't muzzle your neighbor, don't put your finger on the trigger until you're ready to fire, don't wave the gun around when clearing a malfunction.   Getting that wrong should disqualify someone.

But different instructors have different opinions about what the "right" course of fire should be.

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11 minutes ago, SJ Guns said:

All that the law requires is to "demonstrate thorough familiarity with the use and safe handling" of your firearm.

It's up to the discretion of the instructor what he or she needs to see in order to have faith that you have met the requirement above.

Since using a firearm for self defense so rarely happens at distances over 10 yards,  I personally don't think it's necessary to shoot out to 25 yards. There's also no requirement in the law for a certain number of rounds, or even a specific score to pass.  Since the HCQ1, HCQ2, and RPO courses of fire require a score of 80, I think everyone has adopted that as the standard, even though there really is no standard score for non-LEO qualifiers.

What I do think is critical is safe handling.  Don't muzzle your fingers, don't muzzle your neighbor, don't put your finger on the trigger until you're ready to fire, don't wave the gun around when clearing a malfunction.   Getting that wrong should disqualify someone.

But different instructors have different opinions about what the "right" course of fire should be.

1 gun in my collection is a p238. I couldnt hit 10 at 25yrds no matter how i try. Id be lucky to hit 2. Lets be honest... If you NEED to defend yourself at 25yrds, it's no longer self defense. 

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14 hours ago, SJ Guns said:

What I do think is critical is safe handling.  Don't muzzle your fingers, don't muzzle your neighbor, don't put your finger on the trigger until you're ready to fire, don't wave the gun around when clearing a malfunction.   Getting that wrong should disqualify

You forgot don't put rounds into your neighbors target at 25 yards. Yes happened to me. Ruined a perfect score. Instructor said it didn't matter I passed anyway but 100 is better than 94 with my sp 2022.

 

13 hours ago, Mike77 said:

gun in my collection is a p238. I couldnt hit 10 at 25yrds no matter how i try. Id be lucky to hit 2.

I scored a 97 with my p 938 basically same firearm. It's not easy by any means but 10 out of 10 at 25 yards is doable.

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6 minutes ago, brucin said:

You forgot don't put rounds into your neighbors target at 25 yards.

That happened to me, and the target was only at 15 yards during my qual.

RO's came over to check targets and the guy next to me called out the "extra" that he put on my target.

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13 minutes ago, 124gr9mm said:

That happened to me, and the target was only at 15 yards during my qual.

RO's came over to check targets and the guy next to me called out the "extra" that he put on my target.

Guy next to me didn't own up to it but he did fail the qualification

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30 minutes ago, brucin said:

I scored a 97 with my p 938 basically same firearm. It's not easy by any means but 10 out of 10 at 25 yards is doable.

Do'able for one, isn't always do'able for others.....does that make one non proficient? No.....again, having to hit a target at 25yrds, to me, is a joke....because, for self defense, you shouldn't be pulling a gun out at someone 25yrds away. Plenty of room/time to retreat. 

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1 hour ago, Mike77 said:

Do'able for one, isn't always do'able for others.....does that make one non proficient? No.....again, having to hit a target at 25yrds, to me, is a joke....because, for self defense, you shouldn't be pulling a gun out at someone 25yrds away. Plenty of room/time to retreat. 

I totally agree 25 yards is a joke. FL accepted my hunters ed course, NY at the time I got it was a 3 hour handgun safety course and PA you just need a heartbeat. 

Qualification should be similar to the hunters ed course with maybe 5-10 shots at 7 yards.

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1 hour ago, brucin said:

I totally agree 25 yards is a joke. FL accepted my hunters ed course, NY at the time I got it was a 3 hour handgun safety course and PA you just need a heartbeat. 

Qualification should be similar to the hunters ed course with maybe 5-10 shots at 7 yards.

I have to disagree.  When you’re hunting, you’re shooting at an animal, and if you miss, the shot will likely hit something like a tree or something else with little consequence.  In a self defense situation, there’s a higher likelihood that other people with be around, whether it’s a neighbor, passersby, other people in a store, etc.  That’s where accuracy and control really matter.  I’m all for qualifying with 50 rounds at different distances, and even some using weak hand, and in different positions.  The stakes are so high that we really don’t want inexperienced shooters out and about.  

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16 hours ago, Mike77 said:

1 gun in my collection is a p238. I couldnt hit 10 at 25yrds no matter how i try. Id be lucky to hit 2. Lets be honest... If you NEED to defend yourself at 25yrds, it's no longer self defense. 

Think about it from a disabled person’s standpoint.  25 yds may very well be a self defense distance, as they may not have the time or ability to duck and dodge or retreat.  

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2 minutes ago, LeaveNJ said:

Think about it from a disabled person’s standpoint.  25 yds may very well be a self defense distance, as they may not have the time or ability to duck and dodge or retreat.  

But yet places make you duck dodge knell to test? 

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There is arguably a position that longer shots for self defense can be found unreasonable because the option of retreat in complete safety is more likely.

However, don't forget that you may also find yourself in the position of defending another person. Maybe that person is someone you feel deeply for, a wife, husband, mother, father, son, daughter, grandfather, grandmother, etc. and they are being attacked outside of your typical 7-10 yard personal self defense distance. Would you rather decline to take that shot, risk flubbing the shot, or have confidence that you can make that shot, without undue risk to the victim that you care deeply about?

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