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49 minutes ago, samiam said:

Is the June, 2003 revision of the 5 shot revolver sequence part of the current NJSP firearms qualifications standard HQC2? I ask because I found links in this forum to two different versions of the NJSP qualification standards posted to different NJSP pages. One includes an HQC2 CoF modified for 5-shot revolvers; one does not. My plan is to at least speak to the instructor this morning and ask him what my options are with him. 

Countless police officers and detectives have qualified over the years with 5 shot revolvers as their primary or backup weapon.  While the popularity of the small revolvers may be on the decline, I'm sure many still qualify with one--I'd think using the HQC2 modified for 5-shot revolvers.  I'd ask the instructor to qualify you using the same modified 5-shot revolver course that is approved for police.   Or at least the same distances and time limits, I'd think it reasonable to ask for accommodations on the standing-to-kneeling stages if those are a problem.  

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5 hours ago, 10X said:

Countless police officers and detectives have qualified over the years with 5 shot revolvers as their primary or backup weapon.  While the popularity of the small revolvers may be on the decline, I'm sure many still qualify with one--I'd think using the HQC2 modified for 5-shot revolvers.  I'd ask the instructor to qualify you using the same modified 5-shot revolver course that is approved for police.   Or at least the same distances and time limits, I'd think it reasonable to ask for accommodations on the standing-to-kneeling stages if those are a problem.  

So, I called the instructor, Fred Hauber, shortly after 9 AM this morning, per his instructions to me on Sunday, and he was in the middle of a qual shoot. I made arrangements to call him back after 3 PM, which I just did. He informed me that he had "talked to several of his contacts who are NJ detectives" and they told him there is no longer a NJSP HQC protocol for 5-shot revolver in use. Funny, I didn't mention the 5-shot variant to him on Sunday, and he never brought it up as an option, either. He was working only from the standard HQC 2 list. He then recommended that I procure and learn to use a semi-auto (stating that they have a good selection there at FMJ) and he would "work with me" to learn it well enough to qualify. I didn't ask directly (I should have) but the implication I got was that he would be billing me for his time for this. I'm over the guy, at this point. Yes, as I posted here, I had already entertained the idea that I might want to change to a semi-auto handgun, but he didn't know that. I also recall that when I first had difficulty reholstering in qual he pointedly asked me (about my SP101) "Does that seem like a good self-defense handgun to you?" Hmmmm. I now recall that there were some other things he talked about that weren't directly training related that didn't quite seem to hang together, either, although I didn't take particular notice at the time. Sadly, the qual and the NRA CCW classrom work are linked, so I can't get the cert if I don't qualify with this guy. Oh, well, I'll live. I now need to talk to my son, who is a retired Coastie GM1, and get his recommendations on a semi-auto. After that, I'll take several deep breaths and decide how to continue this quest, if I do continue (leaning that way at the moment). 

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15 minutes ago, samiam said:

So, I called the instructor, Fred Hauber, shortly after 9 AM this morning, per his instructions to me on Sunday, and he was in the middle of a qual shoot. I made arrangements to call him back after 3 PM, which I just did. He informed me that he had "talked to several of his contacts who are NJ detectives" and they told him there is no longer a NJSP HQC protocol for 5-shot revolver in use. Funny, I didn't mention the 5-shot variant to him on Sunday, and he never brought it up as an option, either. He was working only from the standard HQC 2 list. He then recommended that I procure and learn to use a semi-auto (stating that they have a good selection there at FMJ) and he would "work with me" to learn it well enough to qualify. I didn't ask directly (I should have) but the implication I got was that he would be billing me for his time for this. I'm over the guy, at this point. Yes, as I posted here, I had already entertained the idea that I might want to change to a semi-auto handgun, but he didn't know that. I also recall that when I first had difficulty reholstering in qual he pointedly asked me (about my SP101) "Does that seem like a good self-defense handgun to you?" Hmmmm. I now recall that there were some other things he talked about that weren't directly training related that didn't quite seem to hang together, either, although I didn't take particular notice at the time. Sadly, the qual and the NRA CCW classrom work are linked, so I can't get the cert if I don't qualify with this guy. Oh, well, I'll live. I now need to talk to my son, who is a retired Coastie GM1, and get his recommendations on a semi-auto. After that, I'll take several deep breaths and decide how to continue this quest, if I do continue (leaning that way at the moment). 

Sounds like a car salesman to me.....  a good revolver and knowing how tonuse it will not fail you....

Move on from this guy....

I know where there is a nice Glock 26...if you need info ping me.

I used to carry it, it's now my daughter's up in VT...  she handles it quite well and I am sure you would too.  However don't give up in that wheel gun....

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17 minutes ago, samiam said:

So, I called the instructor, Fred Hauber, shortly after 9 AM this morning, per his instructions to me on Sunday, and he was in the middle of a qual shoot. I made arrangements to call him back after 3 PM, which I just did. He informed me that he had "talked to several of his contacts who are NJ detectives" and they told him there is no longer a NJSP HQC protocol for 5-shot revolver in use. Funny, I didn't mention the 5-shot variant to him on Sunday, and he never brought it up as an option, either. He was working only from the standard HQC 2 list. He then recommended that I procure and learn to use a semi-auto (stating that they have a good selection there at FMJ) and he would "work with me" to learn it well enough to qualify. I didn't ask directly (I should have) but the implication I got was that he would be billing me for his time for this. I'm over the guy, at this point. Yes, as I posted here, I had already entertained the idea that I might want to change to a semi-auto handgun, but he didn't know that. I also recall that when I first had difficulty reholstering in qual he pointedly asked me (about my SP101) "Does that seem like a good self-defense handgun to you?" Hmmmm. I now recall that there were some other things he talked about that weren't directly training related that didn't quite seem to hang together, either, although I didn't take particular notice at the time. Sadly, the qual and the NRA CCW classrom work are linked, so I can't get the cert if I don't qualify with this guy. Oh, well, I'll live. I now need to talk to my son, who is a retired Coastie GM1, and get his recommendations on a semi-auto. After that, I'll take several deep breaths and decide how to continue this quest, if I do continue (leaning that way at the moment). 

You should have went to Gunforhire.  I will bet money that they can get you qualified with that 5 shot firearm.

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12 minutes ago, Krdshrk said:

I think GFH is a bit far north for him, being in Atlantic county.

Cape May County, actually, and yes, a bit more of a drive to GFH than I would prefer. Shooters isn't too awful for distance from me, I've purchased firearms there several times. I went to FMJ for two reasons: they are on the official NJSP qualification list, and they are 10 minutes from my house. That seemed to add up to a good decision. Sadly, it did not work out that way.

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11 minutes ago, samiam said:

Cape May County, actually, and yes, a bit more of a drive than I would prefer. Shooters isn't too bad for distance from me. I went to FMJ for two reasons: they are on the official NJSP qualification list, and they are 10 minutes from my house. That seemed to add up to a good decision. Sadly, it did not work out that way.

Shooters is on the NJSP qualification list also, $90 +tax if paying cash, add a little more for plastic surcharge. They're on 539 at GSP. Call or stop in and ask them about a revolver. When I took the qual, he asked if anyone had a revolver, nobody did, so I don't know the process. Potential downside is the faster pace and single hand shooting. Upside is no holsters and no 25 yards. When given the command to holster, the gun is placed on the counter. The guy that did my qual seemed pretty down to earth. He's also retired NJSP. Based on responses to some questions I think he'd be accommodating. https://www.shootersnj.com/

Not sure I could provide much more info, but PM me if you wish. 

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5 minutes ago, kc17 said:

Shooters is on the NJSP qualification list also, $90 +tax if paying cash, add a little more for plastic surcharge. They're on 539 at GSP. Call or stop in and ask them about a revolver. When I took the qual, he asked if anyone had a revolver, nobody did, so I don't know the process. Potential downside is the faster pace and single hand shooting. Upside is no holsters and no 25 yards. When given the command to holster, the gun is placed on the counter. The guy that did my qual seemed pretty down to earth. He's also retired NJSP. Based on responses to some questions I think he'd be accommodating. https://www.shootersnj.com/

Not sure I could provide much more info, but PM me if you wish. 

We're all the shoots singled handed. What were the distances 

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4 minutes ago, kc17 said:

Shooters is on the NJSP qualification list also, $90 +tax if paying cash, add a little more for plastic surcharge. They're on 539 at GSP. Call or stop in and ask them about a revolver. When I took the qual, he asked if anyone had a revolver, nobody did, so I don't know the process. Potential downside is the faster pace and single hand shooting. Upside is no holsters and no 25 yards. When given the command to holster, the gun is placed on the counter. The guy that did my qual seemed pretty down to earth. He's also retired NJSP. Based on responses to some questions I think he'd be accommodating. https://www.shootersnj.com/

Not sure I could provide much more info, but PM me if you wish. 

If I decide to stick with my Sp101, I'll give them a shout. Another issue I had in qual was I have never shot single handed with my off-hand before in my life. Another skill I need to practice. These suggestions are all all very helpful :) but I really need to get out to the range and practice my a$$ off (with whatever gun I decide on) before I even think about another qualification. 

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5 minutes ago, Kdin1 said:

We're all the shoots singled handed. What were the distances 

No. Mix of strong hand, support hand and two hands. He didn't call out distances. Max maybe 15 yards? See more more detailed review one or two pages back from Saturday. 

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Nothing wrong with a revolver for CCW.  

From the 06/03 Rev on HQC1

Note: Participants using 5-shot weapons will fire a total of 50 rounds when completing this course (HQC1). These participants will fire the number of rounds indicated for each drill until all rounds within the weapon have been expended. The total number of rounds fired in all but two phases (Phases II and V) must be adjusted to accommodate 5-shot weapons. To achieve a passing score of 80%, participants using 5-shot weapons and firing a 50-round course must place a minimum of 40 shots within the border of the Q target silhouette.

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10 hours ago, samiam said:

If I decide to stick with my Sp101, I'll give them a shout. Another issue I had in qual was I have never shot single handed with my off-hand before in my life. Another skill I need to practice. These suggestions are all all very helpful :) but I really need to get out to the range and practice my a$$ off (with whatever gun I decide on) before I even think about another qualification. 

No.

You need to dry fire* your ass off! 10-15 minutes a day is all you need. You can improve your administrative handling of the firearm (draw and re-holstering, loading, presentation) by a million percent without ever firing a shot simply by dedicating a few minutes a week to dry fire.

Then go to the range and confirm your progress (identify any sustains and needs improvements) with live fire.

To get the most out of it, you need to take notes about what is and isn’t working and what skills need low round maintenance practice and what skills are going to require ammo intensive skill  building improvements.

Then, when you go to the range, you need to go with a plan on what skills you are maintaining, what skills you are working on, and what skills still need to be evaluated.

If you just go and shoot, you are wasting ammo/money - which is OK too, if your goal is to just have fun - I have days where I just blast away turning money into noise. But, when I want to improve a particular skill, I plan and document.

 

 

* Follow all appropriate safety measures when you are dry firing - most importantly no ammo in the room, and a backstop that will stop rounds.

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25 minutes ago, High Exposure said:

No.

You need to dry fire* your ass off! 10-15 minutes a day is all you need. You can improve your administrative handling of the firearm (draw and re-holstering, loading, presentation) by a million percent without ever firing a shot simply by dedicating a few minutes a week to dry fire.

Then go to the range and confirm your progress (identify any sustains and needs improvements) with live fire.

To get the most out of it, you need to take notes about what is and isn’t working and what skills need low round maintenance practice and what skills are going to require ammo intensive skill improvements.

Then, when you go to the range, you need to go with a plan on what skills you are maintaining, what skills you are working on, and what skills still need to be evaluated.

If you just go and shoot, you are wasting ammo/money - which is OK too, if your goal is to just have fun - I have days where I just blast always turning money into noise.  But, when I want to improve a particular skill, I plan and document.

 

 

* Follow all appropriate safety measures when you are dry firing - most importantly no ammo in the room, and a backstop that will stop rounds.

I was speaking figuratively with the "my a$$ off" comment, but I do need a lot of work before I try to requalify, no matter where, or with what. Forget Fred Hauber, I vastly underperformed my own minimum standards on Sunday. You gave sound advice, I thank you and will follow it. 

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On 8/1/2022 at 4:08 PM, Tunaman said:

You should have went to Gunforhire.  I will bet money that they can get you qualified with that 5 shot firearm.

All you guys are reaching out for failure  Hey I can do a HQC with a j frame  Bot as good as I used to.

I Qualify under LEOSA and Rpo. Not as good as I used to be.

So much "I can shoot better than the cops".

You wouldn't want to meet the cops I've trained!!!!

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14 hours ago, Kdin1 said:

We're all the shoots singled handed. What were the distances 

It depends on the instructor. I had Paul Whittaker. The COF was 10 rounds at each distance of 5, 7.5 and 10 yards. All two handed, untimed, and from the bench with no holster, silhouette target. Very forgiving format. Short classroom presentation, followed by 5 or 6 shooters to the line at a time. Up to four guns certified, shooting one only. Shooters is a couple hundred feet east of the Tuckerton Parkway exit.

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5 hours ago, ShootersShooter said:

It depends on the instructor. I had Paul Whittaker. The COF was 10 rounds at each distance of 5, 7.5 and 10 yards. All two handed, untimed, and from the bench with no holster, silhouette target. Very forgiving format. Short classroom presentation, followed by 5 or 6 shooters to the line at a time. Up to four guns certified, shooting one only. Shooters is a couple hundred feet east of the Tuckerton Parkway exit.

Great, thank you for the information, where did you do that?

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23 hours ago, CAL. .30 M1 said:

Sounds like a car salesman to me.....  a good revolver and knowing how tonuse it will not fail you....

Move on from this guy....

I know where there is a nice Glock 26...if you need info ping me.

I used to carry it, it's now my daughter's up in VT...  she handles it quite well and I am sure you would too.  However don't give up in that wheel gun....

About an hour ago I got a VM from this instructor, telling me that "I was able to talk to a contact at the state, and I found out that we will be able to do that for you, and I got a copy of it" (that and it being the 5-shot revolver qualification variant). Maybe I'm foolish, since I'm burning the $295 I paid for this class in the process, but I have no faith in this guy, and I'm still done with him. He told our class that he was on the "NRA team that worked to develop" an NJ compliant curriculum for the class months ago on the presumption that Bruen would eliminate justifiable need in NJ. Well, I would expect that someone who was that much a part of the effort (assuming there really was such a project) would be considerably more  knowledgeable about the NJ qualification standards, including the existence of the 5-shot revolver qual. As far as "getting a copy" is concerned, two or three web searches, max, should allow anyone to do the same. NTM that the previous day, he claimed to have talked to knowledgeable NJ contacts who told him that the 5-shot revolver qual was dead meat. Not intending this post to be a major new rant, just updating the experience that I already posted. 

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8 minutes ago, samiam said:

I found out that we will be able to do that for you

He sounds like a huckster, but if he's willing to bring you in and complete the 5 shot revolver qual free of charge then it might be worth it.

If there's any additional charge (at all) I'd say bail and go to Shooters.

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9 minutes ago, 124gr9mm said:

He sounds like a huckster, but if he's willing to bring you in and complete the 5 shot revolver qual free of charge then it might be worth it.

If there's any additional charge (at all) I'd say bail and go to Shooters.

Yeah.   That.  

If there is no extra charge, the worst case is you get free practice time.  The best case is you get a qualification cert.  Either way, you won't have to deal with that instructor after one more session.

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3 minutes ago, 10X said:

Yeah.   That.  

If there is no extra charge, the worst case is you get free practice time.  The best case is you get a qualification cert.  Either way, you won't have to deal with that instructor after one more session.

I think the worst case is that he manipulates the pea to appear from under yet another shell, and I get set back even further in this quest, ntm needing to deal with even more disgust. Appreciate the advice, but I am no longer confident this guy is even capable of dealing squarely, and I'm firmly in "fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me" mode now...

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Everytime someone says "I know guys in high places, I used to..,  I have to kill you if I tell you where I worked.. blah blah blah ...", I turn around and run in other direction. Fng sc&mbags taking advantage of people.

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3 minutes ago, samiam said:

I think the worst case is that he manipulates the pea to appear from under yet another shell, and I get set back even further in this quest, ntm needing to deal with even more disgust. Appreciate the advice, but I am no longer confident this guy is even capable of dealing squarely, and I'm firmly in "fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me" mode now...

Don't feel bad. I paid a guy twice for two bad trainings. Hoped the first time was a fluke. It wasn't. 

 

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1 hour ago, samiam said:

About an hour ago I got a VM from this instructor, telling me that "I was able to talk to a contact at the state, and I found out that we will be able to do that for you, and I got a copy of it" (that and it being the 5-shot revolver qualification variant). Maybe I'm foolish, since I'm burning the $295 I paid for this class in the process, but I have no faith in this guy, and I'm still done with him. He told our class that he was on the "NRA team that worked to develop" an NJ compliant curriculum for the class months ago on the presumption that Bruen would eliminate justifiable need in NJ. Well, I would expect that someone who was that much a part of the effort (assuming there really was such a project) would be considerably more  knowledgeable about the NJ qualification standards, including the existence of the 5-shot revolver qual. As far as "getting a copy" is concerned, two or three web searches, max, should allow anyone to do the same. NTM that the previous day, he claimed to have talked to knowledgeable NJ contacts who told him that the 5-shot revolver qual was dead meat. Not intending this post to be a major new rant, just updating the experience that I already posted. 

19715__84374.1627966179.jpg?c=1

 

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1 hour ago, CAL. .30 M1 said:

19715__84374.1627966179.jpg?c=1

 

Exactly. No insult intended to our resident carny guy, but I spent nearly 4 years working on an Atlantic CIty amusement pier with  a number of folks who excelled at separating members of the general public from their money on various "games of skill and chance" there in the Summer, and went with the travelling shows the rest of the year. And in that context, there was nothing wrong with that, nearly all of the "marks" played for amusement and entertainment, and I'm pretty sure most of them understood that the odds were not as they appeared. Firearms instruction is a different story, imo...

 

 

 

 

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On 8/2/2022 at 7:11 AM, ShootersShooter said:

It depends on the instructor. I had Paul Whittaker. The COF was 10 rounds at each distance of 5, 7.5 and 10 yards. All two handed, untimed, and from the bench with no holster, silhouette target. Very forgiving format. Short classroom presentation, followed by 5 or 6 shooters to the line at a time. Up to four guns certified, shooting one only. Shooters is a couple hundred feet east of the Tuckerton Parkway exit.

Did those qualifying for more than one gun shoot with all of them? Thanks.

NM I need to learn to read more slowly and carefully. Sorry!

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2 hours ago, samiam said:

Did those qualifying for more than one gun shoot with all of them? Thanks.

NM I need to learn to read more slowly and carefully. Sorry!

I called Reloaderz, in north Jersey, to ask about an option to qualify with more than one gun, since they don't list that option on their website.  I was told that if the guns are substantially similar (both revolvers, both striker fired, both hammer fired) you can qualify with one and they'll list both the permit.  They want you to bring in both guns with proof of ownership, though.

I've not actually gone there to qualify, I don't know if you can push beyond the two gun limit, or how flexible they are on 'substantially similar'.   For example could one qualify with a big honking G34 and then have a little G43 listed on the permit as well?  They shoot the full HQC-1 course, and while any of the little defensive guns should be accurate enough to keep all shots on the Q target, it does get easier to do so at 25 yards if you have the extra sight radius.

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