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CAL. .30 M1

Ammunition and Notice

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Two questions - one I know the answer too - but want to ask anyway:

1)  Carry Ammo - HP's Verboten?  

a)  Would it make sense then to carry similar ammo to say your local PD or NJSP?

2)  Is NJ a DUTY TO INFORM State?

 

:)

 

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Dunno what your game is, but I'll play:
 

8 minutes ago, CAL. .30 M1 said:

1)  Carry Ammo - HP's Verboten?  

Yes, Hollow Point ammunition still illegal outside of certain exemptions, regardless if granted carry permit or not.
 

8 minutes ago, CAL. .30 M1 said:

a)  Would it make sense then to carry similar ammo to say your local PD or NJSP?

No, unless you're a NJ LEO - NJ LEO's are exempted from hollow point restrictions.

8 minutes ago, CAL. .30 M1 said:

2)  Is NJ a DUTY TO INFORM State?

No it is not.  You do not have a duty to inform a police officer you're carrying if you're stopped.
 

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Conventional hollow points are a no-no, stick with Hornady Critical Defense/ Critical duty. 
Unless your PD carry’s critical defense or critical duty then no.

And I haven’t seen anything about informing police that you are legally carrying a gun. I see NJ becoming a duty to inform state tho.

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17 hours ago, CAL. .30 M1 said:

Two questions - one I know the answer too - but want to ask anyway:

1)  Carry Ammo - HP's Verboten?  

a)  Would it make sense then to carry similar ammo to say your local PD or NJSP?

2)  Is NJ a DUTY TO INFORM State?

 

:)

 

according to the class i took, yes. no hp. critical defense though seems to have an exception mentioned on state pd website?  i think that at least one of my local depts does in fact carry holllow points. seen them in one officers mag.

 

 2....i'd like to know that one too. i'm sure that somehow, our ccw status will get linked to our DL, and they'll already know when they stop us. big question will be if we get targeted because we have ccw.

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5 hours ago, 1LtCAP said:

according to the class i took, yes. no hp. critical defense though seems to have an exception mentioned on state pd website?  i think that at least one of my local depts does in fact carry holllow points. seen them in one officers mag.

 

 2....i'd like to know that one too. i'm sure that somehow, our ccw status will get linked to our DL, and they'll already know when they stop us. big question will be if we get targeted because we have ccw.

I have four non-resident permits and have done enough driving in some of those states to (tentatively) conclude that I am not the target of unusual "random" stops in those states, or in NJ, as a result. So if what you are predicting comes to pass, it will be entirely an internal NJ thing. That wouldn't cause them to hesitate for in instant, of course. 

Here is a nightmarish thought. If such a link exists, or is created, suppose you (as a person permitted to carry in NJ) decide to drive somewhere without your handgun (I understand where some proponents are coming from who advocate NEVER going unarmed, but that isn't me, and probably never will be), are stopped, and the cop is convinced that you MUST have the gun on your person or in your vehicle...

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6 hours ago, CAL. .30 M1 said:

Unless they carry that then no?  What do you mean by that....

 

 

Anyone have any comments about frangible ammunition?

Don't have a cite, but I have been told by several people who should be knowledgeable that ammo that the owner has made frangible (e.g., dum dums) is illegal in NJ. Ammo manufactured to do that, I'm not so sure, that might vary. Personally, I wouldn't risk carrying ammo that might be questioned unless there is a clear, demonstrated improvement in effectiveness. 

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4 hours ago, samiam said:

Don't have a cite, but I have been told by several people who should be knowledgeable that ammo that the owner has made frangible (e.g., dum dums) is illegal in NJ. Ammo manufactured to do that, I'm not so sure, that might vary. Personally, I wouldn't risk carrying ammo that might be questioned unless there is a clear, demonstrated improvement in effectiveness. 

So, ball....  

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Dum dums by definition are bullets that expand. I dont see frangible bullets meeting that criteria. 

NJ doesn't differentiate between who made the cartridge, so manufactured or reloaded shouldn't have a legal impact with this regard.

I would stick with ball ammo, any bullet like Hornady Critical Defense, while not hollow point could be considered a dum dum. 

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13 hours ago, CAL. .30 M1 said:

So, ball....  

I keep Hornady Critical Defense and LeverRevolution at home for our revolvers and our Rossi carbine. Seems like those expand very similarly to a HP, but I have never seen any verifiable claim or other indication that NJ considers them to be illegal. I woudn't hesitate to carry these if I get my permit. Ricochet and over-penetration issues could make for liabiilty if you were ever in a self-defense situation on the street. Presumably, HCD would exhibit less of that behavior than ball. 

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10 hours ago, JackDaWack said:

Dum dums by definition are bullets that expand. I dont see frangible bullets meeting that criteria. 

NJ doesn't differentiate between who made the cartridge, so manufactured or reloaded shouldn't have a legal impact with this regard.

I would stick with ball ammo, any bullet like Hornady Critical Defense, while not hollow point could be considered a dum dum. 

A dum dum (at least the ones I am familiar with) is made by removing part of the nose of a lead-cored, jacketed bullet. It was originally developed by the British for use in their Express rifle in India (at Dum Dum arsenal). I've seen homemade dum dums where the jacket of an fmj round is scored in an "X" pattern. My understanding is that, depending on the contour and depth of the material removed, on impact the bullet may expand, fragment, or both. I have never come across any case citation or authoritative official source claiming that HCD is considered a dum dum, a HP, or has otherwise been found to be illegal in NJ. Have you?

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1 hour ago, samiam said:

A dum dum (at least the ones I am familiar with) is made by removing part of the nose of a lead-cored, jacketed bullet. It was originally developed by the British for use in their Express rifle in India (at Dum Dum arsenal). I've seen homemade dum dums where the jacket of an fmj round is scored in an "X" pattern. My understanding is that, depending on the contour and depth of the material removed, on impact the bullet may expand, fragment, or both. I have never come across any case citation or authoritative official source claiming that HCD is considered a dum dum, a HP, or has otherwise been found to be illegal in NJ. Have you?

Take a closer look at the critical defense/duty, they have the scoring in the jacket and part of the lead core removed at the nose.

I'm not saying they have, I'm saying they "may", based on its configuration. 

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/95/78/1b/95781b2c9668bd9c26792fb0583f6b39.jpg

 

NJSP don't offer official "legal advice", either. While they say HCD is not hollow point, they don't say it's NOT a dum dum. 

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Just to clarify and help in ammo selection, this is from the NJSP website (in the FAQ section).

  1. I’m not a police officer, are hollow points legal for me to possess?

    Yes.  They are legal for purchase and possess in your home or on land owned by you.  They are legal to possess and use at a gun range.  They are also legal to possess while traveling to and from such places. Ammunition lacking a hollow cavity at the tip, such as those with a polymer filling, are not considered to be hollow point ammunition.  An example of this can be seen with the Hornady Critical Defense / Critical Duty, Cor-Bon PowRball / Glaser Safety Slug and Nosler Inc. Defense ammunition.

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Firearms Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ's) | New Jersey State Police (nj.gov)

See question 13 on the NJSP FAQ.  Basically, use Critical Defense or Critical Duty.  From what I read Critical Defense was designed for smaller guns, Critical Duty is more for full sized guns.  The Defense will penetrate less, the Duty will penetrate car doors and windows better.  

 

While HCD seems to do well in ballistics tests as far as expanding, when researching it, I've read a few stories of people being shot with it and it not opening.  At any rate it would still be better than ball ammo.  

 

Is there any good soft point handgun bullets?  Spear Gold Dot 5.56/.223 ammo is soft point and is supposed to work well with good expansion, but the Speer Gold Dot hand gun ammo is hollow point.  I'm guessing this is due to velocity difference between HG ammo and rifle ammo.  

 

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On 9/26/2022 at 7:57 PM, ESB said:

From what I read Critical Defense was designed for smaller guns, Critical Duty is more for full sized guns.  The Defense will penetrate less, the Duty will penetrate car doors and windows better.  

https://www.hornadyle.com/the-difference-between-critical-defense-and-critical-duty

The Hornady site doesn't give load information, but I'm guessing that Critical Duty has more powder/develops more pressure than critical defense; "Better in Full Size guns" is probably layman-speak for "will have more velocity in longer barrels".

If that's true, I'd also expect Critical Duty to have more flash effect in a short barrel/compact handgun than Critical Defense.

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19 hours ago, Lostboy said:

So whats the best option in .22 for something like an LCP thats NJ legal?

.22LR defensive handgun ammo?  Federal Punch.  Check out reviews and video of it.  It will consistently hit the 12-16" in ballistics gel. 

Most .22LR HP ammo will not expand, or if it does will not penetrate very far, even in rifles (Stingers may be the exception out of a rifle).  .22LR HP out of a handgun will have a really hard time expanding and penetrating.  

In a rifle you might want to do 1 Stinger then 1 Punch, alternating.    In .22LR handgun I would do Federal Punch only.     

Realize that with .22LR you are going to need well placed shots, and probably several of them.  

 

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1 hour ago, ESB said:

.22LR defensive handgun ammo?  Federal Punch.  Check out reviews and video of it.  It will consistently hit the 12-16" in ballistics gel. 

Most .22LR HP ammo will not expand, or if it does will not penetrate very far, even in rifles (Stingers may be the exception out of a rifle).  .22LR HP out of a handgun will have a really hard time expanding and penetrating.  

In a rifle you might want to do 1 Stinger then 1 Punch, alternating.    In .22LR handgun I would do Federal Punch only.     

Realize that with .22LR you are going to need well placed shots, and probably several of them.  

 

Thank you. I watched a bunch of reviews and yeah that's true especially out of a tiny gun like an lcp2. I don't intend on carrying it often, but it is a nice alternative when dressing light. I'll look into the federal punch. 

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