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plumbshotsam

Small rifle primers not firing in handgun ammo

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Last time I was in Pa. , five weeks ago, I bought 400 small rifle primers (at two different retail stores) as no SPPs were available at either .......WHAT A SHOCK!!!!!  I have formerly used SRPs in place of SPPs in my 38 special loads with no problem whatsoever. Usually, CCIs over 4 grns. Bullseye for the Xtreme 125 plated RNFP, and 2.9 grn. Bullseye for the 148 grn. WCs. Both of these are nice loads that work well for me. So, imagine my surprise when about 40 of the 70 rounds I fired did not go bang!!! First failure was through an older Rossi with a 3" bbl, so I tried my S&W model 67 4" bbl, also an older handgun, with similar results. Next was the Ruger Match Champion about two years old (maybe 1000 rounds down the bbl) also sketchy, but better than the older guns. I have seen posts about the different composition of primers, SPPs vs. SRPs but have not heard of or seen this discussion/problem. Anyone else have an experience like this?  Don't know if you can see it but all are good primer strikes! Cases are mixed headstamps, some new starline brass!!!

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1 minute ago, JackDaWack said:

What primers exactly were used here? 

There are lots of hard small rifle primers. 

Especially the CCI #41 SRPs.   They are made extra hard so no accidents in .223/556 with the free floating firing pin.

 

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Hey guys,  I bought and used CCI BR-4 SRPs.  Still have over 300 loaded but untested/unfired reloads sitting here. Guess I will just have to try them. If NG will knock down for components. You think CCI would give any assistance?

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15 minutes ago, plumbshotsam said:

Hey guys,  I bought and used CCI BR-4 SRPs.  Still have over 300 loaded but untested/unfired reloads sitting here. Guess I will just have to try them. If NG will knock down for components. You think CCI would give any assistance?

The BR4 is a match primer and has a thicker cup than the 400s. CCI won't help since you are using bench rest rifle primers as pistol primers. The #400 SRPs should work in a pistol. If you wanted to knock them down, I have the CCI 400s and SPPs but you are too far North to travel for 400 lousy primers.

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29 minutes ago, Tunaman said:

Pull the bullets and fire them

He's pulling the bullets because the primers will not detonate reliably.

I say just keep rechambering those fuckers till they go bang.  Unless you have a short firing pin, that might not be enough to satisfy the primer.

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1 hour ago, Scorpio64 said:

How do you plan on depriming brass of live primers?

I have done this many times!  Wear safety goggles and don't slam the handle on the press.  Slow, easy pressure and I guarantee not one will go off.  If you use the RCBS Universal depriming die, there is plenty room in it for the expanding gasses. 

The soaking the primed brass in oil trick is BS! Primers are hard to kill!  Just remove them gently with the press. With the goggles on and your head turned away, if one did go off, no big deal!:)

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I have punched out a few live primers in my day and never had one go off yet either.  It would be good to try and fire a few after you pulled the bullet and powder just to confirm the reason why they are not firing.  Have you measured the primer pockets and the primers to be sure they are seated all the way down?  What is the clearance from the top of the seated primer to the case?  Any chance they got wet somehow?v  Looks like you are getting a pretty good strike.

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2 hours ago, Tunaman said:

I have punched out a few live primers in my day and never had one go off yet either.  It would be good to try and fire a few after you pulled the bullet and powder just to confirm the reason why they are not firing.  Have you measured the primer pockets and the primers to be sure they are seated all the way down?  What is the clearance from the top of the seated primer to the case?  Any chance they got wet somehow?v  Looks like you are getting a pretty good strike.

Looking at at the pictures of the primers, all have a shadow around them!  Looks seated too deep to me!  Perhaps those SRPs are shorter than standard SPPs.  @Tunaman you are definitely on target! No pun intended.

PS.  I stand by my statement that with proper precautions, It's safe to remove live primers!

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Just an FYI. When discussing primer ignition problems, pictures of the bullet end of things are seldom useful. A profile shot of the case head end of things would be useful to see if the curves at the edge of the primer are due to being extra shallow or a bit proud. 

 

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23 minutes ago, JackDaWack said:

I dont think the primers are set to deep, the firing pin detents look good, just not enough force to set them off... 

They don't look like "light" primer strikes. 

I am thinking possibly not deep enough.  He said he used multiple firearms with the same results.  Some primers need to go all the way in for them to go off.  Maybe that batch of primers are no good or wet or old?

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2 minutes ago, Tunaman said:

I am thinking possibly not deep enough.  He said he used multiple firearms with the same results.  Some primers need to go all the way in for them to go off.  Maybe that batch of primers are no good or wet or old?

They look like solid strikes, which is why a profile shot would be useful. If they are proud at all after that hit, the issue is how they seat. 

If they are just flush after that hit, possibly the same. 

Like if I try to prime on my lee cast press, you don't get full depth seating. It'll work for most things, but sometimes not. So when I was using that for handgun ammo, I'd prime off press with a hand primer. The anvil needs to be braced against the bottom of the pocket. I'm suspicious of any primers that retain the profile they had in the box 100% when seated. They probably aren't seated well enough. 

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OK, WOW!!  Thanks guys.  

      Here's where I am; I did rechamber and refire the crap out of them. About half did fire after 4 or 5 strikes. The rest I did knock down and put one case in a soft faced vise and hit it with a pointed set. It took quite a shot but it did fire. All deprimed with no incident.   (why am I reminded of the VERY old Bill Cosby routine about how he put a bullet in the furnace in shop class!!!?) 

     So, I did take closer up pics which are attached but at this point I am thinking that it is the hardness of the primers. As for the other 300 or so I already loaded they will go to the range with me and I will cycle them and see what happens. Nothing to lose at this point of the game. Will update as progress or lack thereof occurs.

     Thanks, again, guys.

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If I was faced with the prospect of pulling 300 bullets (especially the WCs) from 38 sp cases because they'd been primed with rifle primers, I think I'd go buy a .38/.357 lever action rifle instead.  Pulling bullets is so very tedious, at least with a kinetic puller.

 

Maybe not so cost effective, but you'd get another gun out of the deal.  :)

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