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Being prepared - trying to swap my grid connected system to independent system

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This is what I have been dealing with trying to transition my home’s solar system:

My question:

What is the process for transitioning a home solar system connected to the grid over to a stand-alone system which will temporarily disconnect from the grid with an automatic transfer switch so that the home will be solely powered by the solar system till the grid turns back on?

I contacted the original installation company:

([email protected])

Thank you for reaching out. Trinity Solar only installs grid-tied solar systems. My suggestion would be to reach out to Sunnova to see if they can provide you with some options.

I contacted the contracted solar account company:

([email protected])

Thank you for contacting Sunnova regarding disconnecting the grid. Please reach out to your utility company in regards to disconnecting the grid. Should you have additional questions, please do not hesitate to reach our customer service team for further assistance.

I contacted a few generic solar companies:

(Can’t remember name of generic solar company spoke on phone)

Can’t modify another company’s system, contact the original installation company

([email protected])

In most cases we would need to stay "tied" to the grid. This is what keeps the warranties in tact. You could add storage to the new system so you can use the power that you collect before pulling from the grid.

But offered no further information

I contacted my utility company:

(JCP&L)

I can understand your frustration. The utility’s only role regarding solar is to reviews the engineering plans submitted to us by the customer or the customer’s solar company and either approve or deny. The only reason we are involved in that aspect is that it will be connected to our infrastructure. We do not do any design or construction work of any kind. A solar company (yours or a new one) would need to be the ones to design and modify your system. We cannot recommend any particular solar company however.

So no one is stepping up to the plate and I’m still back at the point where I started a month ago

I'm also a little gun shy about finding the right company because dealing with the original company I inquired about receiving RECS and was told that it wasn't being done anymore only to find out later after the contract was signed and non cancelable that this wasn't actually true.

So, with so many companies out there and my internet investigation\search not really pointing to any one company being more creditable than the next, is there any company that the majority of users find reputable that would assist me in this transition?

Thanks in advance

 

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6 minutes ago, Tunaman said:

I would think any competent electrician could do this job. You better have alot of batteries if you want to stay off the grid for any amount of time.  Someday will will have the technology but now is not the time.

But wouldn't the batteries re-charge during the day for the night time usage which is usually minimal?

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As mentioned, you need a bunch of batteries and a way to keep them topped off before returning unused power to the grid.  Even if the original solar provider doesn't offer a way to get you off grid, you should still be able to use your current panels.  Most likely you would need to purchase batteries, a charge controller, and transfer switch.   Won't be cheap.  

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Post up the details of your system's size and how much power (avg and max) you usually send to grid on a daily basis.  That would determine your charge controller.  You'll then need to figure out what your avg daily power consumption would be off grid, and that will determine the size of your battery array.

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To comment on using a generator (propane or natural gas), my biggest thought is to have a system that isn't reliant on any external fuel type just in case SHTF situation and everyone decides to stop providing services for organized reasons or natural disaster reasons.  ESB I understand the parts and process, just a little bit above my capabilities, that's why I'm trying to find a "creditable" company

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4 minutes ago, ESB said:

Post up the details of your system's size and how much power (avg and max) you usually send to grid on a daily basis.  That would determine your charge controller.  You'll then need to figure out what your avg daily power consumption would be off grid, and that will determine the size of your battery array.

My monthly statement from my solar bill says - Production
1,115.1350 kWh

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5 minutes ago, byekryam said:

 ESB I understand the parts and process, just a little bit above my capabilities, that's why I'm trying to find a "creditable" company

Gotcha.  Research aftermarket whole home battery systems.  I'm sure some will ways of integrating with whatever panels you have.  

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2 hours ago, ESB said:

  Most likely you would need to purchase batteries, a charge controller, and transfer switch.   Won't be cheap.  

 For the money probably better off with a standby generator and a large tank of propane. Propane stores better than other fuels and could power appliances, heat the house, cook your food. 

What if the grid goes down in the winter during extended inclement weather? This is N.J. not southern California.

The Amish are big on propane and are the original "off grid" people.

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You don't need a transfer switch to do what you are trying to do, you just need an inverter that has that feature built in.  The Outback Radian was the most popular choice for this back in 2015 when I was taking courses on sustainable energy.  It will isolate you from the grid if the grid goes down and it will continue to provide you power if available from your solar panels or battery bank.  There are several things to consider with this setup.

1.  You will need a battery bank, a charge controller and possibly a load shunt, so excess power will always have somewhere to go safely in the event the grid is not available.

2.  Batteries can store a lot of power, but last I checked, they cannot discharge a lot of power continuously.  The best way to run off of batteries (both in terms of economic use of the stored energy and financial investment in the system itself) is to have the batteries supply power to a sub-panel which will only power critical circuits in your home.  You'll want heat for in the winter (preferably gas or propane; electric heat not recommended) minimal electric for lights and small appliance/freezer and depending on when your live, a well pump.   Its best to sacrifice central air conditioner, electric stoves, an other large draws on electricity that are not critical to sustaining life.

3.  Careful calculations have to be made when considering how long the battery bank can sustain your demand for its power and these calculations are best done when considering worse case scenario.  If the power goes out at night, in the winter when the days are shorter and the next 2 days are cloudy and snowing, you will not be able to recharge the system if it was designed to only sustain you for 1 day.  Typically in a system like this, 3 to 5 days of stored power is ideal. 

4.  The calculations have to be correct for how many panels are required to recharged said system when the batteries are near depleted and they have to do it in December when the days are the shortest. 

Overall, its very possible to have a system that can stand alone when the grid goes down, but its extremely expensive.  When I priced it out several years ago for my house, it would have cost around $60k total, where the normal system with just the panels and inverter was about 1/4 of that.  A whole house standby generator seemed like a better choice for the money.  I'm not saying a generator is a better choice, just saying its a more affordable choice.  I definitely recognize the genny's disadvantages. 

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3 hours ago, Bomber said:

 For the money probably better off with a standby generator and a large tank of propane. Propane stores better than other fuels and could power appliances, heat the house, cook your food. 

What if the grid goes down in the winter during extended inclement weather? This is N.J. not southern California.

The Amish are big on propane and are the original "off grid" people.

I'm curious two things....

How long would a big tank of propane power a generator continuously?

Are there issues with propane in winter thickening up or is that an old wives tale?

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3 hours ago, Bomber said:

 For the money probably better off with a standby generator and a large tank of propane. Propane stores better than other fuels and could power appliances, heat the house, cook your food. 

What if the grid goes down in the winter during extended inclement weather? This is N.J. not southern California.

The Amish are big on propane and are the original "off grid" people.

According to my bill, I haven't paid a dime for electric from the grid for a few years, so doesn't that mean that my system even in the winter is producing enough?

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13 minutes ago, byekryam said:

According to my bill, I haven't paid a dime for electric from the grid for a few years, so doesn't that mean that my system even in the winter is producing enough?

If yours is in NJ, then state law requires that the system only produce as much power each year as what you used the year prior to purchasing the system.  Since the days are longer in the summer, you typically make more power than you need in summer.  Without batteries to store the charge, this excess power goes to the transformer that feeds your house, gets stepped up from 240 volts to line voltage (18k volts irc) and gets sent down the street to other houses.  I live in Atlantic City Electric grid area so my excess generation shows up on page 2 of my bill as a credit.  Every kilowatt extra I produce for them adds a kilowatt to my credit balance.  Your bill is required to show you excess generation, but depending on your utility provider, the format of the bill may be different.

Anyway, the utility companies fiscal year runs from March to February.  So starting in March, the days slowly get longer and more importantly, the tropic of cancer is aligned directly with the sun for us in the northern hemisphere.  This puts the sun at noon at the optimal 90 degree angle to your solar panels if they are installed with a tilt between 18 and 22 degrees (most are). So your system will began making a lot of power this time of year.  As the earth continues to tilt through the summer, the angle to the sun becomes slightly less and less optimal, but the days get longer so it evens out and the excess power generation continues, especially if you have a well insulated house that doesn't need A/C running 24/7 through the hot months. 

Eventually, winter rolls around and the days are fairly short.  You most likely use more grid power in December, January and February, but instead of them charging you for the kilowatts you are using, they deduct it from the credits you built up over the first part of their fiscal year.  It should balance out to where you never pay.  When the following March rolls around, what ever kilowatts of credits you still have gets wiped off your account and they send you a check to pay you for it at the rate they charge customers per kilowatt.   

So just because you don't pay a bill doesn't necessarily mean you produce enough in the dead of winter to be self sufficient and top off a depleted bank of batteries.

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44 minutes ago, byekryam said:

I'm curious two things....

How long would a big tank of propane power a generator continuously?

Are there issues with propane in winter thickening up or is that an old wives tale?

Last I checked, a 20kw standby generator fueled by propane running at half load could run continuously for 30 days off of a full 1,000 gallon propane tank.  I have propane for my furnace and water heater.  The tank is underground but my brother in law has an above ground tank.  Never heard of it getting cold enough in NJ to cause issues with it.  Liquid propane vaporizes at -44 degrees.  The temp would have to get under that to cause the propane to remain in a liquid state and cause you to stop getting propane gas into your house. 

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6 hours ago, Regular Guy said:

You don't need a transfer switch to do what you are trying to do, you just need an inverter that has that feature built in.  The Outback Radian was the most popular choice for this back in 2015 when I was taking courses on sustainable energy.  It will isolate you from the grid if the grid goes down and it will continue to provide you power if available from your solar panels or battery bank.  There are several things to consider with this setup.

1.  You will need a battery bank, a charge controller and possibly a load shunt, so excess power will always have somewhere to go safely in the event the grid is not available.

2.  Batteries can store a lot of power, but last I checked, they cannot discharge a lot of power continuously.  The best way to run off of batteries (both in terms of economic use of the stored energy and financial investment in the system itself) is to have the batteries supply power to a sub-panel which will only power critical circuits in your home.  You'll want heat for in the winter (preferably gas or propane; electric heat not recommended) minimal electric for lights and small appliance/freezer and depending on when your live, a well pump.   Its best to sacrifice central air conditioner, electric stoves, an other large draws on electricity that are not critical to sustaining life.

3.  Careful calculations have to be made when considering how long the battery bank can sustain your demand for its power and these calculations are best done when considering worse case scenario.  If the power goes out at night, in the winter when the days are shorter and the next 2 days are cloudy and snowing, you will not be able to recharge the system if it was designed to only sustain you for 1 day.  Typically in a system like this, 3 to 5 days of stored power is ideal. 

4.  The calculations have to be correct for how many panels are required to recharged said system when the batteries are near depleted and they have to do it in December when the days are the shortest. 

Overall, its very possible to have a system that can stand alone when the grid goes down, but its extremely expensive.  When I priced it out several years ago for my house, it would have cost around $60k total, where the normal system with just the panels and inverter was about 1/4 of that.  A whole house standby generator seemed like a better choice for the money.  I'm not saying a generator is a better choice, just saying its a more affordable choice.  I definitely recognize the genny's disadvantages. 

Thank you, very informative!

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2 hours ago, Regular Guy said:

If yours is in NJ, then state law requires that the system only produce as much power each year as what you used the year prior to purchasing the system.  Since the days are longer in the summer, you typically make more power than you need in summer.  Without batteries to store the charge, this excess power goes to the transformer that feeds your house, gets stepped up from 240 volts to line voltage (18k volts irc) and gets sent down the street to other houses.  I live in Atlantic City Electric grid area so my excess generation shows up on page 2 of my bill as a credit.  Every kilowatt extra I produce for them adds a kilowatt to my credit balance.  Your bill is required to show you excess generation, but depending on your utility provider, the format of the bill may be different.

Anyway, the utility companies fiscal year runs from March to February.  So starting in March, the days slowly get longer and more importantly, the tropic of cancer is aligned directly with the sun for us in the northern hemisphere.  This puts the sun at noon at the optimal 90 degree angle to your solar panels if they are installed with a tilt between 18 and 22 degrees (most are). So your system will began making a lot of power this time of year.  As the earth continues to tilt through the summer, the angle to the sun becomes slightly less and less optimal, but the days get longer so it evens out and the excess power generation continues, especially if you have a well insulated house that doesn't need A/C running 24/7 through the hot months. 

Eventually, winter rolls around and the days are fairly short.  You most likely use more grid power in December, January and February, but instead of them charging you for the kilowatts you are using, they deduct it from the credits you built up over the first part of their fiscal year.  It should balance out to where you never pay.  When the following March rolls around, what ever kilowatts of credits you still have gets wiped off your account and they send you a check to pay you for it at the rate they charge customers per kilowatt.   

So just because you don't pay a bill doesn't necessarily mean you produce enough in the dead of winter to be self sufficient and top off a depleted bank of batteries.

Very informative

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On 10/10/2022 at 9:49 PM, byekryam said:

I'm curious two things....

How long would a big tank of propane power a generator continuously?

Are there issues with propane in winter thickening up or is that an old wives tale?

My neighbors had a standby gen on propane, also for heat/hot water and stove.  When we lost power in the March 2018 wind storm their gen ran continuously for 3 or 4 days.  I think they had two one hundred gallon tanks at the time.

So quite a while for a 4800 sq. ft. house.

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39 minutes ago, Bomber said:

My neighbors had a standby gen on propane also for heat and gas stove.  When we lost power in the March 2018 wind storm their gen ran continuously for 3 or 4 days.  I think they had two one hundred gallon tanks at the time.

So quite a while for 4800 sq. ft. house.

Thanks

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On 10/10/2022 at 2:56 PM, byekryam said:

This is what I have been dealing with trying to transition my home’s solar system:

My question:

What is the process for transitioning a home solar system connected to the grid over to a stand-alone system which will temporarily disconnect from the grid with an automatic transfer switch so that the home will be solely powered by the solar system till the grid turns back on?

I contacted the original installation company:

([email protected])

Thank you for reaching out. Trinity Solar only installs grid-tied solar systems. My suggestion would be to reach out to Sunnova to see if they can provide you with some options.

I contacted the contracted solar account company:

([email protected])

Thank you for contacting Sunnova regarding disconnecting the grid. Please reach out to your utility company in regards to disconnecting the grid. Should you have additional questions, please do not hesitate to reach our customer service team for further assistance.

I contacted a few generic solar companies:

(Can’t remember name of generic solar company spoke on phone)

Can’t modify another company’s system, contact the original installation company

([email protected])

In most cases we would need to stay "tied" to the grid. This is what keeps the warranties in tact. You could add storage to the new system so you can use the power that you collect before pulling from the grid.

But offered no further information

I contacted my utility company:

(JCP&L)

I can understand your frustration. The utility’s only role regarding solar is to reviews the engineering plans submitted to us by the customer or the customer’s solar company and either approve or deny. The only reason we are involved in that aspect is that it will be connected to our infrastructure. We do not do any design or construction work of any kind. A solar company (yours or a new one) would need to be the ones to design and modify your system. We cannot recommend any particular solar company however.

So no one is stepping up to the plate and I’m still back at the point where I started a month ago

I'm also a little gun shy about finding the right company because dealing with the original company I inquired about receiving RECS and was told that it wasn't being done anymore only to find out later after the contract was signed and non cancelable that this wasn't actually true.

So, with so many companies out there and my internet investigation\search not really pointing to any one company being more creditable than the next, is there any company that the majority of users find reputable that would assist me in this transition?

Thanks in advance

 

Have you tried reaching out to your electrical code official in your municipality?  They may have some ideas.  Also, an electrician with solar experience should be able to provide you some answers.  I recently upgraded the electrical service to my home to 200A service.  The electrician did a great job.  He's in south jersey, so I don't know if that's any help.

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Not sure where the OP is located but he said he reached out to JCP&L so he must be in their coverage area.  I've used Green Power Energy out of Ewing before.  They are licensed in NJ, Connecticut and PA.  They came all the way down to Salem County to install my system.  They do good work. 

Another resource to get multiple quotes to upgrade your system is www.energysage.com  This website allows you to enter the property address and some simple information about the existing electrical system and contractors that service your area can put together a proposal and a quote. 

One of the main benefits of this site is that the contractors can only contact you through this site.  To have them reach you by phone or email, you have to specifically select to have your personal info shown to a contractor who submitted a proposal.  Once you accept a proposal, the other contractors can no longer contact you since their bid was not accepted. 

Another benefit is the contractors all provide a proposal based on the same set of criteria.  That way you are comparing apples to apples.  The attached is what the basic proposal info includes, but each one has much more detail once you open it.  The site gives the contractor the ability to add photos, equipment specs and manuals, energy usage and production graphs, as well as financial charts, but it puts you in control and makes it easier to find someone to get your job done.      

Energy Sage.png

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10 hours ago, dilbert1967 said:

Have you tried reaching out to your electrical code official in your municipality?  They may have some ideas.  Also, an electrician with solar experience should be able to provide you some answers.  I recently upgraded the electrical service to my home to 200A service.  The electrician did a great job.  He's in south jersey, so I don't know if that's any help.

It's absolutely worth asking.  Unfortunately I'm in northern NJ, but thanks

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7 hours ago, Regular Guy said:

Not sure where the OP is located but he said he reached out to JCP&L so he must be in their coverage area.  I've used Green Power Energy out of Ewing before.  They are licensed in NJ, Connecticut and PA.  They came all the way down to Salem County to install my system.  They do good work. 

Another resource to get multiple quotes to upgrade your system is www.energysage.com  This website allows you to enter the property address and some simple information about the existing electrical system and contractors that service your area can put together a proposal and a quote. 

One of the main benefits of this site is that the contractors can only contact you through this site.  To have them reach you by phone or email, you have to specifically select to have your personal info shown to a contractor who submitted a proposal.  Once you accept a proposal, the other contractors can no longer contact you since their bid was not accepted. 

Another benefit is the contractors all provide a proposal based on the same set of criteria.  That way you are comparing apples to apples.  The attached is what the basic proposal info includes, but each one has much more detail once you open it.  The site gives the contractor the ability to add photos, equipment specs and manuals, energy usage and production graphs, as well as financial charts, but it puts you in control and makes it easier to find someone to get your job done.      

Energy Sage.png

Thanks

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On 10/10/2022 at 2:56 PM, byekryam said:

What is the process for transitioning a home solar system connected to the grid over to a stand-alone system which will temporarily disconnect from the grid with an automatic transfer switch so that the home will be solely powered by the solar system till the grid turns back on?

Any update on this?  Is there a solution to be able to do this?  

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ESB, I have been sidetracked by several smaller projects and have temporarily put this on hold till I get these other things cleared up so I can dedicate the proper amount of time to it.  It is doable, I just don't have all the complete info yet.  As soon as I do move forward, I will certainly update things here for everyone's benefit who might be in a similar situation.  Thanks

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