NJ LAWMAKERS ANNOUNCE PLANS TO DESTROY RIGHT TO CARRY

[doublepar 6]

21 minutes ago, g17owner said:

I see a bit of parking lot discussion going on here. 

Think about this below. And personally, I think it confuses the issue more, rather than clarify.

We already know that we cannot possess firearms on postal property, that includes parking lots and sidewalks. That was already pre-existing law. 

For many years, Ramsey Outdoor in Ledgewood has been in the same building as the US Post Office. All of the stores are connected, share the same sidewalk. Staples sits in between Ramsey and the Post Office. Ramsey is full of guns and people walk in and out of that store with guns and ammo all the time. 

The question is, have we all been breaking the law, unwittingly, for all this time?

IIRC, it all depends on if the post office has its own parking lot or shares one with other entities, i.e., strip mall. You just can't carry in a parking lot exclusively used by the post office. 

[DirtyDigz 1,811]

31 minutes ago, Cheflife15 said:

Any updates on concealed vs open?

Must carry concealed currently.  I don't think open carry is a legal option under the parts of A4769 that aren't currently TRO'd.

[Cheflife15 455]

2 minutes ago, DirtyDigz said:

Must carry concealed currently.  I don't think open carry is a legal option under the parts of A4769 that aren't currently TRO'd.

Is printing illegal? 

I'll be good for winter but will need something smaller come summer. 

[JackDaWack 2,895]

10 minutes ago, Cheflife15 said:

Is printing illegal? 

I'll be good for winter but will need something smaller come summer. 

It's probably not gonna matter by summer. 

Bumb has outlined the entire "test" for sensitive places, to which Williams was impressed and in agreement with. If she is as true to Bruen with sensitive places, the rest of the issues will follow similar reasoning. 

Basically 90% of this law has certainty to be blocked under her current assessment given the states most recent (weak or nonexistent) arguments. 

All we needed was a "real" judge(not some activist) to assess the law under Bruen, and it seems we got that. 

[g17owner 137]

5 minutes ago, Cheflife15 said:

Is printing illegal? 

I'll be good for winter but will need something smaller come summer. 

In some communist countries printing is illegal.

In regards to "printing" while carrying, it is not directly addressed and thus not illegal.

Directly from the bill:

Quote

shall not be construed to authorize a holder to carry a handgun openly, provided that a brief, incidental exposure of a handgun while transferring it to or from a holster or due to the shifting of the person’s body position or clothing shall be deemed a de minimis infraction within the contemplation of N.J.S.2C:2-11

 

[doublepar 6]

4 minutes ago, Cheflife15 said:

Is printing illegal? 

I'll be good for winter but will need something smaller come summer. 

"...  provided that a brief, incidental exposure of a handgun while transferring it to or from a holster or due to the shifting of the person’s body position or clothing shall be deemed a de minimis infraction within the contemplation of N.J.S.2C:2-11".

This covers brief, incidental EXPOSURE.

And contrary to popular myth, printing (only showing shape of a handgun under garment) is never illegal in any jurisdiction in the U.S.

[doublepar 6]

And I don't think banning open carry passes the Bruen test. There is no historical analogue at all. Though concealed carry was restricted, under totally different rationale.

But that's another topic.

[Jfoster99 80]

11 minutes ago, doublepar said:

shall be deemed a de minimis infraction within the contemplation of N.J.S.2C:2-11".

What is a Minimis Infraction?

Normally they word exceptions  that at not illegal to be an exemption not a Minimus Infraction ( minimal infraction?)

Does that mean it is only a little bit illegal?  
Perhaps depending on the opinion of the officer it can be considered illegal?

So Minimal exposure is not Legal it is minimally illegal? Perhaps that means it is so minimally illegal that there are no consequences?

[EngineerJet 191]

There are two parts that ban open carry, one in section 3 and one in section 6. 6 isn't effective for 6 months but section 3 is effective now. So my take is no.

[doublepar 6]

9 minutes ago, Jfoster99 said:

What is a Minimis Infraction?

Normally they word exceptions  that at not illegal to be an exemption not a Minimus Infraction ( minimal infraction?)

Does that mean it is only a little bit illegal?  
Perhaps depending on the opinion of the officer it can be considered illegal?

So Minimal exposure is not Legal it is minimally illegal? Perhaps that means it is so minimally illegal that there are no consequences?

A "de minimis" infraction is still a crime. But it depends on the circumstances and it's up to the discretion of a judge to dismiss the charge. Still BS in my opinion. Exercising a constitutionally protected right shouldn't be this perilous. 

Section 2C:2-11 - De minimis infractions :: 2014 New Jersey Revised Statutes :: US Codes and Statutes :: US Law :: Justia

 

P.S. They could confiscate your firearm or even permit, though.

[ESB 244]

31 minutes ago, doublepar said:

"...  provided that a brief, incidental exposure of a handgun while transferring it to or from a holster or due to the shifting of the person’s body position or clothing shall be deemed a de minimis infraction within the contemplation of N.J.S.2C:2-11".

This covers brief, incidental EXPOSURE.

And contrary to popular myth, printing (only showing shape of a handgun under garment) is never illegal in any jurisdiction in the U.S.

I think that it also covers if you accidently expose for example while reaching up to get something on the top shelf at a store.  Vs exposing on purpose to intimidate anyone.

[ESB 244]

@Spartiati any insight into this?

  18 hours ago, JackDaWack said:

https://www.usnews.com/news/best-states/delaware/articles/2022-09-24/judge-bars-enforcement-of-delaware-ghost-gun-restrictions

  2 hours ago, ESB said:

How does that not effect NJ ghost gun law?  

2 hours ago, DirtyDigz said:

Because it was a Delaware law that was challenged and enjoined, not a NJ law.

2 hours ago, ESB said:

Bruen was a NY law that was challenged but effected NJ and other states...

 

2 hours ago, DirtyDigz said:

Bruen was a SCOTUS decision.  The Delaware law is currently at a Federal district court.

Similar to how the 5th circuit recently ruled that the bump stock ban is not enforceable, but that judgement is currently only effective in the states the 5th circuit covers.

 

1 hour ago, Walkinguf61 said:

Incorrect. The decision only affects the federal ban and not an individual state. But affects the entire federal enforcement until there is a split . And the other circuits ruled on bump stocks themselves as where the case in the 5th circuit went after how the rule was made .

Im not a lawyer so don’t take my interpretation as gospel.

  

 

[ESB 244]

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[Walkinguf61 40]

1 hour ago, DirtyDigz said:

Must carry concealed currently.  I don't think open carry is a legal option under the parts of A4769 that aren't currently TRO'd.

Concealed only unless LE or security guard

[Displaced Texan 11,731]

1 hour ago, Cheflife15 said:

Any updates on concealed vs open? Not that I would open but unfortunately I think I occasionally print (I'm buying bigger shirts and a different holster to hide it). 

I'm also probably just staring at it and it's something no one else would ever notice. 

You’ll be self conscious about printing for awhile. The feeling wears off as you find YOUR spot to carry, and as you get more comfortable with it. 
 

I wore my sidearm around the house for a few weeks in order to get used to the feeling of it, and the right clothes to wear with it. Takes time to find your combo. 

[Walkinguf61 40]

32 minutes ago, Jfoster99 said:

What is a Minimis Infraction?

Normally they word exceptions  that at not illegal to be an exemption not a Minimus Infraction ( minimal infraction?)

Does that mean it is only a little bit illegal?  
Perhaps depending on the opinion of the officer it can be considered illegal?

So Minimal exposure is not Legal it is minimally illegal? Perhaps that means it is so minimally illegal that there are no consequences?

It basically means that an accidental unintentional exposure means the police officer, prosecutors, or the judge don’t have to act on it as a crime. 

[DirtyDigz 1,811]

Transcript from yesterday's hearing is available:

https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.njd.506033/gov.uscourts.njd.506033.42.1.pdf

[DirtyDigz 1,811]

[DirtyDigz 1,811]

[DirtyDigz 1,811]

[Walkinguf61 40]

3 hours ago, g17owner said:

I see a bit of parking lot discussion going on here. 

Think about this below. And personally, I think it confuses the issue more, rather than clarify.

We already know that we cannot possess firearms on postal property, that includes parking lots and sidewalks. That was already pre-existing law. 

For many years, Ramsey Outdoor in Ledgewood has been in the same building as the US Post Office. All of the stores are connected, share the same sidewalk. Staples sits in between Ramsey and the Post Office. Ramsey is full of guns and people walk in and out of that store with guns and ammo all the time. 

The question is, have we all been breaking the law, unwittingly, for all this time?

The answer is no. It’s not postal properly or in control of the postal service . There is case law on this . 
 

From the 10th circuit “Bonidy” case involving the postal reg and the parking lot:

“The Court offered two approaches which it could find that the prohibition was constitutional. First, it looked at the layout of the parking lot, finding that it was attached to the postal building and was for the exclusive use of it. “

[DirtyDigz 1,811]

[DirtyDigz 1,811]

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[Jfoster99 80]

1 hour ago, doublepar said:

A "de minimis" infraction is still a crime. But it depends on the circumstances and it's up to the discretion of a judge to dismiss the charge. Still BS in my opinion. Exercising a constitutionally protected right shouldn't be this perilous. 

Section 2C:2-11 - De minimis infractions :: 2014 New Jersey Revised Statutes :: US Codes and Statutes :: US Law :: Justia

 

P.S. They could confiscate your firearm or even permit, though.

Great Answer… Thank you…

So every time I have to unholster, unload, open the trunk, open my storage box to secure my weapon it will be plainly visible to anyone in a 10 meter radius.  Could it be done in a stealthy manner, sure but to do it 3-4 times per typical outing as a normal course of action it will certainly be getting exposed.

Not to mention the danger of  all this loading and unloading… Did they know most Police Stations have a special bullet  proof container to point the weapon in to load/unload because of all the accidental discharges that happen!   I now have to point it at my balls in the front seat of my car to load/unload without being seen.

My head just spins with all of this…

[Walkinguf61 40]

1 hour ago, Displaced Texan said:

You’ll be self conscious about printing for awhile. The feeling wears off as you find YOUR spot to carry, and as you get more comfortable with it. 
 

I wore my sidearm around the house for a few weeks in order to get used to the feeling of it, and the right clothes to wear with it. Takes time to find your combo. 

Wearing a pants size bigger helps and loose fitting shirts are a big help. Being comfortable is important. What would telegraph someone was wearing a gun was when they had to adjust it after moving or getting up. 
There is a reason people wear flannel shirts. The pattern breaks up the outline of the gun. 
A good belt is a must to keep the “ droop” on the belt from happening. 
I tell you this from experience of both carrying myself and making gun arrests . 
 

[Walkinguf61 40]

20 minutes ago, Jfoster99 said:

Great Answer… Thank you…

So every time I have to unholster, unload, open the trunk, open my storage box to secure my weapon it will be plainly visible to anyone in a 10 meter radius.  Could it be done in a stealthy manner, sure but to do it 3-4 times per typical outing as a normal course of action it will certainly be getting exposed.

Not to mention the danger of  all this loading and unloading… Did they know most Police Stations have a special bullet  proof container to point the weapon in to load/unload because of all the accidental discharges that happen!   I now have to point it at my balls in the front seat of my car to load/unload without being seen.

My head just spins with all of this…

And don’t forget about bullet setback . 

[Mike77 169]

3 hours ago, Displaced Texan said:

You’ll be self conscious about printing for awhile. The feeling wears off as you find YOUR spot to carry, and as you get more comfortable with it. 
 

I wore my sidearm around the house for a few weeks in order to get used to the feeling of it, and the right clothes to wear with it. Takes time to find your combo. 

I been doing that myself. realizing my underarmor shirts I wear for work are too "tight" for CCW.  Also finding good undershirts making it more comfortable. 

I used to open carry, as armed security, (Taurus 38 revolver)....clunky thing.....my Shield plus, and Tulster is like hardly carrying.

[124gr9mm 859]

5 hours ago, Cheflife15 said:

Any updates on concealed vs open? Not that I would open but unfortunately I think I occasionally print (I'm buying bigger shirts and a different holster to hide it). 

I'm also probably just staring at it and it's something no one else would ever notice. 

"Printing" is not a crime.

[DirtyDigz 1,811]

The consolidation order is out from Judge Williams in the Siegel case:

https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.njd.506026/gov.uscourts.njd.506026.34.0.pdf



 

 

[Scorpio64 5,147]

2 hours ago, Walkinguf61 said:

Wearing a pants size bigger helps

Over the past few years my weight has started fluctuating more between warm and cold seasons.   I got into the habit of buying pants with stretchy/adjustable waistbands.