Spud 4 Posted January 9, 2023 If I qualify (concealed carry) with, say, a Sig M17, but then i want to carry a Sig P365 (or any other NJ legal handgun, for that matter), can I? Or would i have to qualify with every handgun I want to carry (which is ludicrous, but I wouldn't put that past Murphy)? Thanks, Spud Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mike77 169 Posted January 9, 2023 8 minutes ago, Spud said: If I qualify (concealed carry) with, say, a Sig M17, but then i want to carry a Sig P365 (or any other NJ legal handgun, for that matter), can I? Or would i have to qualify with every handgun I want to carry (which is ludicrous, but I wouldn't put that past Murphy)? Thanks, Spud Depends who you ask, and what county you are in..... Some counties are mandating qual with the gun you carry..... Others no restrictions.... The law of the Permit says 1 permit covers all guns .... 2C:58-4 Permits to carry handguns 2C:58-4. a. Scope and duration of authority. Any person who holds a valid permit to carry a handgun issued pursuant to this section shall be authorized to carry a handgun in all parts of this State, except as prohibited by subsection e. of N.J.S.2C:39-5. One permit shall be sufficient for all handguns owned by the holder thereof, but the permit shall apply only to a handgun carried by the actual and legal holder of the permit. 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mr.Stu 1,882 Posted January 9, 2023 2 minutes ago, Spud said: If I qualify (concealed carry) with, say, a Sig M17, but then i want to carry a Sig P365 (or any other NJ legal handgun, for that matter), can I? Or would i have to qualify with every handgun I want to carry (which is ludicrous, but I wouldn't put that past Murphy)? Thanks, Spud It depends on what the Judge said when they issued your permit. In Hunterdon, the Judge said only the guns you have qualified with, but could just send in the proof of qualification for any other gun to have it added to the permit. Since A4769 was signed into law, there is no involvement by the Judge so new permits cannot be restricted by court order. The letter of the law says "One permit shall be sufficient for all handguns owned by the holder thereof, but the permit shall apply only to a handgun carried by the actual and legal holder of the permit." The Admin code says "Submission of an applicant's most recent handgun qualification scores utilizing the handgun(s) he or she intends to carry as evidenced by test firings administered by a certified firearms instructor of a police academy, a certified firearms instructor of the National Rifle Association, or any other recognized certified firearms instructor;" Therefore, at the time that you apply for your permit you must submit the quals for the gun you intend to carry - your intention at the time of applying. If you haven't applied yet, you would need to submit quals for the P365 as that is the gun you intend to carry. You can't qual with the M17 because it is easier, and then carry the P365 because the M17, from your statement above, is not the gun you intend to carry. Personally, I would qual with both. In consideration of when you have to legally defend your use of force, it would do you no harm to be able to show that you had previously qualified with the gun you used, but I don't see it as required. 3 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Spud 4 Posted January 9, 2023 Thanks to both of you. Mr. Stu, your logic (qualify with both) makes a lot of sense, especially from the legal standpoint. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mike77 169 Posted January 9, 2023 Again, i never understand how there can be 2 opposite laws contradicting themselves. I mean, I can. It's NJ. 2 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
YankeeSC 1,204 Posted January 10, 2023 15 hours ago, Mike77 said: i never understand how there can be 2 opposite laws contradicting themselves I don't read them as contradictory 15 hours ago, Mr.Stu said: One permit shall be sufficient for all handguns owned by the holder I think that's very clear. "one" permit and "all' handguns, there is no limit. 15 hours ago, Mr.Stu said: utilizing the handgun(s) he or she intends to carry The key word here is "intends", which is essentially "a plan" https://www.dictionary.com/browse/intend So quite simply, that was your plan at the time you qualified, but plans can and do change. You are not locked into your plan. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Spud 4 Posted January 10, 2023 No argument with what you said, SC. I don't know if you lived in the PRNJ prior to moving to SC, but knowing this State and some of its prosecutors...I'm gonna Qual with both guns. Same reason (kicking hornet's nest ;-) I use Hornady Critical Defense or Duty as my SD ammo - I don't want them to even get a toenail in the door ;-). Spud 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ReconMarine 3 Posted January 10, 2023 I just obtained my permit last week and this is a question I need an answer for as well . I submitted my application back in August and at the time I qualified the range wanted us to take a photograph of the handgun we used for the qualification. Subsequent to the test I have purchased a Glock 19 which is more geared for carry ( as opposed to the CZ75B I had used). That CZ is listed on the back of my permit but Now I am leaning towards the clause which seems to allow ANY gun legally owned by the permit holder . I will check this out at the PD. Thanks for comments that have made things clearer. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
124gr9mm 857 Posted January 10, 2023 I just received my permit (Morris county) and it says to add additional guns I need to notify the court in writing with the make, model, serial number, and quals and they will be added as an amendment. You may want to check with the court. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
10X 3,278 Posted January 10, 2023 1 minute ago, 124gr9mm said: I just received my permit (Morris county) and it says to add additional guns I need to notify the court in writing with the make, model, serial number, and quals and they will be added as an amendment. You may want to check with the court. WooHoo--congratulations! Did you pick it up from the court, or did they first send it back to your local PD who then notified you? 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
124gr9mm 857 Posted January 10, 2023 2 minutes ago, 10X said: WooHoo--congratulations! Did you pick it up from the court, or did they first send it back to your local PD who then notified you? They sen tit to my PD, so it was actually approved last week Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ESB 240 Posted January 10, 2023 6 hours ago, YankeeSC said: I don't read them as contradictory I think that's very clear. "one" permit and "all' handguns, there is no limit. The key word here is "intends", which is essentially "a plan" https://www.dictionary.com/browse/intend So quite simply, that was your plan at the time you qualified, but plans can and do change. You are not locked into your plan. Is seems to me in my IANAL, that if they aren't contradictory then that means one law is for how to get the permit and the other applies to when you already have it. Ie in order to get your permit, you must submit quals with all of the guns you intend to CCW with. Once you have your permit it covers all handguns you own. So technically if you go out and buy a new gun after you got your permit, it would be lawful for you to carry it since at the time you got your permit you did not own it therefor could not have known you would ever intend to use it at the time you got your permit. 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CMJeepster 2,765 Posted January 11, 2023 17 hours ago, 124gr9mm said: They sen tit to my PD, so it was actually approved last week Freudian slip? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
YankeeSC 1,204 Posted January 11, 2023 22 hours ago, Spud said: I don't know if you lived in the PRNJ prior to moving to SC 52 years, I escaped in 2018. Just in time. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ReconMarine 3 Posted January 11, 2023 21 hours ago, ReconMarine said: I just obtained my permit last week and this is a question I need an answer for as well . I submitted my application back in August and at the time I qualified the range wanted us to take a photograph of the handgun we used for the qualification. Subsequent to the test I have purchased a Glock 19 which is more geared for carry ( as opposed to the CZ75B I had used). That CZ is listed on the back of my permit but Now I am leaning towards the clause which seems to allow ANY gun legally owned by the permit holder . I will check this out at the PD. Thanks for comments that have made things clearer. So I just reread this clause and it seems unambiguous to me . I just emailed the Atlantic County Superior Court representative with my question about additional handguns and I will post her response when I receive it. ref ; One permit shall be sufficient for all handguns owned by the holder thereof, but the permit shall apply only to a handgun carried by the actual and legal holder of the permit and shall not be construed to authorize a holder to carry a handgun openly 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ReconMarine 3 Posted January 11, 2023 I received this response from the court . As of 12/22/22 the Judiciary is out of the GP applications, so in order for you to add to your current card, you would have to reach out to your Township. They are just getting ready to start the whole new process as this is all new to them, so in all honest truth not sure when you would be able to complete that with them. 2 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Spud 4 Posted January 11, 2023 23 minutes ago, ReconMarine said: So I just reread this clause and it seems unambiguous to me . I just emailed the Atlantic County Superior Court representative with my question about additional handguns and I will post her response when I receive it. ref ; One permit shall be sufficient for all handguns owned by the holder thereof, but the permit shall apply only to a handgun carried by the actual and legal holder of the permit and shall not be construed to authorize a holder to carry a handgun openly It *is* unambiguous, I agree. That said, I wouldn't put it past an overzealous NJ prosecutor to make a big deal out of the fact that you Qualified with Gun A, but shot someone in self-defense with Gun B. Seems to me if they wanted to go that route, they'd have to argue that your "lack of demonstrated competence" caused you to shoot the attacker when you wouldn't have otherwise. Makes no sense. Now - I wonder - if you shot in self-defense, but (God Forbid) harmed an innocent bystander in the process...seems like they might be able to use an argument that you're "not competent" with Gun B in *that* scenario. 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DirtyDigz 1,793 Posted January 11, 2023 What would be the charge for carrying a handgun that was not on the list ordered by a NJ superior court - contempt of court? 1 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ReconMarine 3 Posted January 11, 2023 It is county to county here in this crazy state. My permit (Atlantic County) lists the gun I qualified with on the back where restrictions are listed. I believe it will change shortly but I am going to check back with my local PD in a few weeks . Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mike77 169 Posted January 11, 2023 1 hour ago, ReconMarine said: It is county to county here in this crazy state. My permit (Atlantic County) lists the gun I qualified with on the back where restrictions are listed. I believe it will change shortly but I am going to check back with my local PD in a few weeks . If it's non restricted, that gun listed means jack shit. Just if NJ listed the car you tested with on your DL exam. Nothing on that permit or license says this is all you can carry/drive. The 2c title the PTC os issue thru says "any gun on the holder of the gun" 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
124gr9mm 857 Posted January 12, 2023 1 hour ago, Mike77 said: If it's non restricted, that gun listed means jack shit. Just if NJ listed the car you tested with on your DL exam. Nothing on that permit or license says this is all you can carry/drive. The 2c title the PTC os issue thru says "any gun on the holder of the gun" The analogy would be if a superior court judge issued you your driver license and it came with a court order that stipulated you could only drive the vehicle you passed the road test with. The order says you can add additional vehicles any time by submitting a written request to the court. Moot point until you get pulled over by the wrong cop (in both cases)... 1 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChrisJM981 924 Posted January 13, 2023 2C is the law. The New Jersey Administrative Code (N.J.A.C.) is the codification of all rules and regulations made by the executive branch agencies of New Jersey. As I see it that is the opinion of the OAG. You'd need to ask an attorney about its legal weight on the side of a road or in a courtroom. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JackDaWack 2,894 Posted January 13, 2023 On 1/11/2023 at 12:47 PM, DirtyDigz said: What would be the charge for carrying a handgun that was not on the list ordered by a NJ superior court - contempt of court? If you violate the court order, the permit is automatically revoked and you are now carrying illegally. NOT GOOD 20 minutes ago, ChrisJM981 said: 2C is the law. The New Jersey Administrative Code (N.J.A.C.) is the codification of all rules and regulations made by the executive branch agencies of New Jersey. As I see it that is the opinion of the OAG. You'd need to ask an attorney about its legal weight on the side of a road or in a courtroom. Legal questions shouldn't be directed at PDs or Courts, they are under no obligation to provide you with accurate information or legal advice. 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChrisJM981 924 Posted January 13, 2023 4 minutes ago, JackDaWack said: If you violate the court order, the permit is automatically revoked and you are now carrying illegally. NOT GOOD Legal questions shouldn't be directed at PDs or Courts, they are under no obligation to provide you with accurate information or legal advice. That's why I said ask an attorney. 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JackDaWack 2,894 Posted January 13, 2023 5 minutes ago, ChrisJM981 said: That's why I said ask an attorney. 100% I was just clarifying why an attorney is the proper choice. At the very least, with a lawyer you claim you were provided improper council if they were to give you false information. Can't do that with anyone else. 2 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites