45Doll 5,848 Posted February 17, 2023 This article has opinions from a variety of sources. Overall they seem to be pretty accurate. One thing I think they all agree on is New Jersey puts most of the legal burden on the victim. How nice. When you can use a gun in NJ to defend your home or self (nj1015.com) 2 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CMJeepster 2,766 Posted February 17, 2023 I read that article yesterday and didn't post it here because I thought it would stir up a shit storm. 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BigGuns 262 Posted February 17, 2023 1 hour ago, 45Doll said: One thing I think they all agree on is New Jersey puts most of the legal burden on the victim. Such horse crap: It’s simple, Reale says, “In New Jersey, we have a presumption of innocence, but we don't have a presumption that you made the right choice.” “And what we're asking people to do is, is make a split-second decision. It's not even a split second, it is milliseconds. You're processing all that information that you're seeing and what you're hearing, and trying to decide what is it I'm confronting, and what force can I use?” “And New Jersey is always going to second-guess you in the process.” So, at the end of the day, it comes down to this simple question, do you want to be carried by 6, or judged by 12? Tough decision in this state. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CMJeepster 2,766 Posted February 17, 2023 4 minutes ago, BigGuns said: So, at the end of the day, it comes down to this simple question, do you want to be carried by 6, or judged by 12? Tough decision in this state. Judged by 12. 2 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
45Doll 5,848 Posted February 17, 2023 15 minutes ago, CMJeepster said: I read that article yesterday and didn't post it here because I thought it would stir up a shit storm. 2 minutes ago, BigGuns said: So, at the end of the day, it comes down to this simple question, do you want to be carried by 6, or judged by 12? Tough decision in this state. I posted it because all the opinions were from people involved in law enforcement. And if their opinions are accurate, it means the legal treatment of anyone in NJ who uses deadly force will indeed be prejudiced. Which should stir up a shit storm. Since NJ is a progressive stronghold I'm sure that article didn't surprise many of us. And this community's members are probably not the ones who should be reading it. But we should be well aware of what we're up against. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BigGuns 262 Posted February 17, 2023 3 minutes ago, CMJeepster said: Judged by 12. That would be my choice too. 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BigGuns 262 Posted February 17, 2023 1 minute ago, 45Doll said: Since NJ is a progressive stronghold I'm sure that article didn't surprise many of us. And this community's members are probably not the ones who should be reading it. But we should be well aware of what we're up against. I agree, many people here are aware of the situation. But they make up a really small percentage of gun owners in the state. Just look at how few people participate here, out of the 1 million gun owners in the state. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RichP 115 Posted February 17, 2023 I consider Mas Ayoob an authority on the subject, and its definitely worthwhile to watch his videos or read his books on the subject. For example, in his 20 year-old video, he explains that a woman running down the street screaming rape and being chased by a guy could very well be a hooker trying to escape from an undercover cop. Would not be a good idea to draw down and shoot. Or the guy knocking at your door at 3am could be an officer trying to inform you of an emergency/accident, etc.. 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
45Doll 5,848 Posted February 17, 2023 BTW, did you notice this: 57K 'gun registrations'? That has to refer to handguns at least, and I think there's definitely more than that purchased in this state since purchase permits were required, resulting in 'registration'. And what's the difference between 'permits' and 'registrations'? These are ATF numbers, and they may not at all be accurate, or have the same definitions as New Jermany. 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NickySantoro 211 Posted February 17, 2023 32 minutes ago, CMJeepster said: Judged by 12. Just a hypothetical of course, but if a body is NOT found on your living room floor, are you actually involved? 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
124gr9mm 857 Posted February 17, 2023 45 minutes ago, 45Doll said: BTW, did you notice this: 57K 'gun registrations'? That has to refer to handguns at least, and I think there's definitely more than that purchased in this state since purchase permits were required, resulting in 'registration'. And what's the difference between 'permits' and 'registrations'? These are ATF numbers, and they may not at all be accurate, or have the same definitions as New Jermany. Yeah, it would be interesting to know more about the dataset. ATF would have access to NICS data for the permits, but no idea what the "registrations" represent. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BigGuns 262 Posted February 17, 2023 1 hour ago, NickySantoro said: Just a hypothetical of course, but if a body is NOT found on your living room floor, are you actually involved? There are definitely some people who subscribe to the S, S, S. Shoot, Shovel and Shut-up. 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GRIZ 3,365 Posted February 18, 2023 8 hours ago, NickySantoro said: Just a hypothetical of course, but if a body is NOT found on your living room floor, are you actually involved? Tough talk but concealing a death is a crime in most jurisdictions. 1 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Old Glock guy 1,125 Posted February 18, 2023 10 hours ago, GRIZ said: Tough talk but concealing a death is a crime in most jurisdictions. And talking about it on the internet is not a smart thing to do. 2 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
leahcim 673 Posted February 24, 2023 On 2/17/2023 at 8:26 PM, GRIZ said: Tough talk but concealing a death is a crime in most jurisdictions. And at the present time, very high likelihood they'll figure it out, with all the technology at police disposal, and neighbors ring camera etc. And I'm pretty sure this kind of action would pretty much destroy any self defense claim you might have had. Don't mess with evidence, they will figure it out and jury will assume you're guilty. 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NickySantoro 211 Posted March 5, 2023 On 2/17/2023 at 8:26 PM, GRIZ said: Tough talk but concealing a death is a crime in most jurisdictions. Smart talk, which would explain why the logic of it eluded you. 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GRIZ 3,365 Posted March 5, 2023 4 hours ago, NickySantoro said: Smart talk, which would explain why the logic of it eluded you. No logic in your initial statement. 2 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tunaman 538 Posted March 5, 2023 If you havent already done so, everyone who carries should read this and know it to the letter. https://www.nj.gov/oag/dcj/agguide/directives/ag-Directive-2022-4_Statewide-Vehicular-Pursuit-Policy-and-Use-of-Force-Policy-Addendum-A-Addendum-B.pdf 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
45Doll 5,848 Posted March 6, 2023 35 minutes ago, Tunaman said: If you havent already done so, everyone who carries should read this and know it to the letter. https://www.nj.gov/oag/dcj/agguide/directives/ag-Directive-2022-4_Statewide-Vehicular-Pursuit-Policy-and-Use-of-Force-Policy-Addendum-A-Addendum-B.pdf I haven't read the entire thing yet. But I would point out that this document's target audience is police officers, not citizens. For example, I don't think citizens will ever be employing 'positional asphyxiation' as an alternative to a concealed handgun. However I definitely agree with your sentiment that those who carry should be fully informed about the use of force law as it pertains to them. I have posted recommended reading elsewhere. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
leahcim 673 Posted March 6, 2023 On 2/17/2023 at 11:03 AM, CMJeepster said: Judged by 12. Unfortunately, in NJ, you could do everything right, you could follow NJ law perfectly and clearly defending against deadly force. Still it is highly likely you will be indicted and charged and you will be judged by 12; hopefully acquitted. And you, the victim, will end up paying a boatload of money for the privilege. From the original story: "Even if you are rightly defending yourself or a family member or any other person, Reale says the climate in New Jersey will impact the decisions of investigators and law enforcement with regard to how they proceed, “and while in maybe 48 states, you wouldn't get indicted, in New Jersey, you run the serious risk of being charged. Even if common sense says it's a righteous shoot, it's likely you're going to have to go through a court of law.” Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tunaman 538 Posted March 6, 2023 I know that link pertains to Police or Law enforcement, but i do believe in following that guide where it pertains to firearms as it is likely that anyone that uses force or deadly force will be held to those standards...and I agree that we should be. Like the old saying goes..."when in Rome" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Krdshrk 3,872 Posted March 6, 2023 Basically - you'll most likely get charged. I highly recommend getting some insurance to help cover (US Law Shield). 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
High Exposure 5,635 Posted March 6, 2023 3 hours ago, Tunaman said: I know that link pertains to Police or Law enforcement, but i do believe in following that guide where it pertains to firearms as it is likely that anyone that uses force or deadly force will be held to those standards...and I agree that we should be. Like the old saying goes..."when in Rome" There are quite a few things that a cop can do in the furtherance of a law enforcement objectives that a non-cop can not do. Conversely, there are a few things that non-cops can do that sworn LE can not. A non sworn individual will not be held to the same standard as a sworn officer in the event deadly force is used. It’s apples to hand grenades. A non-officer’s ability to use deadly force is pretty narrow. It starts and stops where your immediate safety, at your exact location (without the ability to get away), is at risk of serious injury or death due to the purposeful/reckless actions of another. Officers, on the other hand are expected to literally “go looking for trouble” when necessary and are permitted to use force (including deadly) to protect the community at large - not just themselves, or their immediate surroundings. It’s not a bad thing to know the AG Guidelines, just don’t take it out of context or follow it beyond what is legal for you as an individual. 1 3 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites