Do NJ hollow point restrictions apply to bullets, or only loaded ammunition?

[ESB 244]

  

7 minutes ago, Tunaman said:

The only problem with that is say you get in a fender bender before you hit the state line...you are probably going to go to jail.

 

Whys is that?  Going from one residence to another of from your residence to a gun range is a legal exemption to the rule.  Same as going to the range with them.  Could you get in trouble with a overzealous cop/prosecutor/da?  Sure, but that applies with anything gun related, even if what you are doing is 100% legal.  

[124gr9mm 859]

1 hour ago, Tunaman said:

The only problem with that is say you get in a fender bender before you hit the state line...you are probably going to go to jail.

No, I wouldn't be.

Fender-bender is an exchange of information.  I was in one recently (my truck had a minor dent and the other car needed to be towed) and the cop didn't ask either of us what was in our vehicles, where we were going, etc, etc.

In the unrealistic event that a cop DID ask, it wouldn't matter.  Going from my property TO my property is not a crime.

Stop chasing windmills...

[Tunaman 548]

2 hours ago, ESB said:

  

 

Whys is that?  Going from one residence to another of from your residence to a gun range is a legal exemption to the rule.  Same as going to the range with them.  Could you get in trouble with a overzealous cop/prosecutor/da?  Sure, but that applies with anything gun related, even if what you are doing is 100% legal.  

You guys are missing the whole point.  It is NOT legal to have it in your possession while MOVING.  This is why Brian Aiken got screwed.  As I said before.  You can have it in your house...or to and from the range or store where you bought it..  NOWHERE else.  The statute says nothing about moving.  And I meant a small accident where the cops are called,  and the OP states he would have a carload of stuff the movers wont take...including bullet heads.  Fine if they dont see them,  but if they do you are PROBABLY going to jail.  I read the statute 20 times and i dont see anything about residence to residence.  Somebody show me where it is.  And trust me.  I am moving to Florida and I am in the same predicament.  Take the shortest route out of this state.

[124gr9mm 859]

Aiken was not moving his stuff from his old home to his new home.  He was traveling around NJ with all of his stuff in his trunk crashing on couches while he "looked for a permanent dwelling".  He was leaving Point A (house for sale in CO) but he didn't have a Point B (residence in NJ).  He just had his guns and ammo stored in his trunk while he randomly crashed with friends and relatives.  (I think it's absurd that he was charged, but that's a different discussion).

That's a very different scenario than you packing stuff in your vehicle and going directly to your new residence.

Yes the travel laws do not explicitly state that you can go from your residence to your residence, but if there is ANYWHERE you're allowed to take them (range, competition, etc) then there is an implicit implication that you can return to your home with them.

In the Aiken case the judge didn't allow the travel rules to be read to the jury because he didn't think Aiken was in the act of moving. (I again disagree)

Again, I'm not a lawyer, and you have to do what makes you comfortable, so go ahead and get rid of all your HP ammo or spend money mailing it to your new place.

I would not hesitate to pack it and go.

[leahcim 678]

On 2/27/2023 at 7:20 AM, 124gr9mm said:

Aiken was not moving his stuff from his old home to his new home.  He was traveling around NJ with all of his stuff in his trunk crashing on couches while he "looked for a permanent dwelling".  He was leaving Point A (house for sale in CO) but he didn't have a Point B (residence in NJ).  He just had his guns and ammo stored in his trunk while he randomly crashed with friends and relatives.  (I think it's absurd that he was charged, but that's a different discussion).

That's a very different scenario than you packing stuff in your vehicle and going directly to your new residence.

Yes the travel laws do not explicitly state that you can go from your residence to your residence, but if there is ANYWHERE you're allowed to take them (range, competition, etc) then there is an implicit implication that you can return to your home with them.

In the Aiken case the judge didn't allow the travel rules to be read to the jury because he didn't think Aiken was in the act of moving. (I again disagree)

Again, I'm not a lawyer, and you have to do what makes you comfortable, so go ahead and get rid of all your HP ammo or spend money mailing it to your new place.

I would not hesitate to pack it and go.

Aitken did make mistakes, especially consenting to search, but does anyone seriously think this should have earned him three felonies?

As for the OPs HPs, you can transport HPs from home to range and from range back home, right?  Why not just drive from house A to the range (literally just pull into the parking lot) then drive from the range to house B?

[ESB 244]

On 2/26/2023 at 9:06 PM, Tunaman said:

You guys are missing the whole point.  It is NOT legal to have it in your possession while MOVING.  This is why Brian Aiken got screwed.  As I said before.  You can have it in your house...or to and from the range or store where you bought it..  NOWHERE else.  The statute says nothing about moving.  And I meant a small accident where the cops are called,  and the OP states he would have a carload of stuff the movers wont take...including bullet heads.  Fine if they dont see them,  but if they do you are PROBABLY going to jail.  I read the statute 20 times and i dont see anything about residence to residence.  Somebody show me where it is.  And trust me.  I am moving to Florida and I am in the same predicament.  Take the shortest route out of this state.

You are missing the point.  Aiken did NOT get in trouble because he had them while moving.  Read that again.  It is legal to possess HP if you are travelling from one home to another. 

It says so right on the NJ State Police FAQ website.    Please show me the law that specifically states that you cannot possess HP ammo when moving.  Also please email the NJ State Police and let them know that their website is wrong.  That you cannot actually travel from one home to another with HP ammo.  

 

Firearms Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ's) | New Jersey State Police (nj.gov)

1. I’m not a police officer, are hollow points legal for me to possess?

   Yes.  They are legal for purchase and possess in your home or on land owned by you.  They are legal to possess and use at a gun range.  They are also legal to possess while traveling to and from such places. Ammunition lacking a hollow cavity at the tip, such as those with a polymer filling, are not considered to be hollow point ammunition.  An example of this can be seen with the Hornady Critical Defense / Critical Duty, Cor-Bon PowRball / Glaser Safety Slug and Nosler Inc. Defense ammunition.

[RadioGunner 218]

3 hours ago, ESB said:

You are missing the point.  Aiken did NOT get in trouble because he had them while moving.  Read that again.  It is legal to possess HP if you are travelling from one home to another. 

It says so right on the NJ State Police FAQ website.    Please show me the law that specifically states that you cannot possess HP ammo when moving.  Also please email the NJ State Police and let them know that their website is wrong.  That you cannot actually travel from one home to another with HP ammo.  

 

Firearms Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ's) | New Jersey State Police (nj.gov)

1. I’m not a police officer, are hollow points legal for me to possess?

   Yes.  They are legal for purchase and possess in your home or on land owned by you.  They are legal to possess and use at a gun range.  They are also legal to possess while traveling to and from such places. Ammunition lacking a hollow cavity at the tip, such as those with a polymer filling, are not considered to be hollow point ammunition.  An example of this can be seen with the Hornady Critical Defense / Critical Duty, Cor-Bon PowRball / Glaser Safety Slug and Nosler Inc. Defense ammunition.

That is incorrect.

 

NJSA 2C:39-3 f.Dum-dum or body armor penetrating bullets.  (1) Any person, other than a law enforcement officer or persons engaged in activities pursuant to subsection f. of N.J.S.2C:39-6

The exemption for moving is NJS 2C:39-6(e). 

NJS 2C:39-6(f) is strictly about target practice. 
 

Instead of NJS 2C:39-6(e) they put a narrower exemption. 

NJSA 2C:39-3g(2)  a.  Nothing in subsection f. (1) shall be construed to prevent a person from keeping such ammunition at his dwelling, premises or other land owned or possessed by him, or from carrying such ammunition from the place of purchase to said dwelling or land, 

 

Says nothing about moving. Only says you’re legal to possess at your dwelling, premises, land owned or possessed - and - only FROM place of purchase to your home. You can’t even take it out of your home unless you’re going to target practice. 
 

 

[Tunaman 548]

53 minutes ago, RadioGunner said:

That is incorrect.

 

NJSA 2C:39-3 f.Dum-dum or body armor penetrating bullets.  (1) Any person, other than a law enforcement officer or persons engaged in activities pursuant to subsection f. of N.J.S.2C:39-6

The exemption for moving is NJS 2C:39-6(e). 

NJS 2C:39-6(f) is strictly about target practice. 
 

Instead of NJS 2C:39-6(e) they put a narrower exemption. 

NJSA 2C:39-3g(2)  a.  Nothing in subsection f. (1) shall be construed to prevent a person from keeping such ammunition at his dwelling, premises or other land owned or possessed by him, or from carrying such ammunition from the place of purchase to said dwelling or land, 

 

Says nothing about moving. Only says you’re legal to possess at your dwelling, premises, land owned or possessed - and - only FROM place of purchase to your home. You can’t even take it out of your home unless you’re going to target practice. 
 

 

Correct.  He was NOT going to any place he could say was his home at the time.  That is why they charged him because he wasn't within the exemption.  Whether it was a correct decision by the cops to arrest him was moot.  He was driving around going from place to place (friends houses) which is not covered.  They tried to call it "moving"" but they charged him anyway.  Christ they even arrested and charged a security guard for having Critical Duty rounds when it says right in the NJSP website that they are not considered hollowpoints.  If it wasnt for Nappen he would still be in jail.

[leahcim 678]

5 hours ago, ESB said:

You are missing the point.  Aiken did NOT get in trouble because he had them while moving.  Read that again.  It is legal to possess HP if you are travelling from one home to another. 

It says so right on the NJ State Police FAQ website.    Please show me the law that specifically states that you cannot possess HP ammo when moving.  Also please email the NJ State Police and let them know that their website is wrong.  That you cannot actually travel from one home to another with HP ammo.  

 

Firearms Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ's) | New Jersey State Police (nj.gov)

1. I’m not a police officer, are hollow points legal for me to possess?

   Yes.  They are legal for purchase and possess in your home or on land owned by you.  They are legal to possess and use at a gun range.  They are also legal to possess while traveling to and from such places. Ammunition lacking a hollow cavity at the tip, such as those with a polymer filling, are not considered to be hollow point ammunition.  An example of this can be seen with the Hornady Critical Defense / Critical Duty, Cor-Bon PowRball / Glaser Safety Slug and Nosler Inc. Defense ammunition.

That count (HP) is literally the only charge that was not overturned on appeal:

"and fourth-degree possession of prohibited ammunition (hollow nose bullets), in violation of N.J.S.A. 2C:39-3(f)(1) (count three). We reverse the convictions on counts one and two, but affirm the conviction on count three."

Case text-State v Aitken

Their argument was: "APPELLANT WAS ERRONEOUSLY CONVICTED FROM POSSESSING HOLLOW NOSE AMMUNITION BECAUSE THE STATUTE BANNING SUCH AMMUNITION IS VOID FOR VAGUENESS AND THE STATE WAS
UNABLE TO PROVE ITS CASE; FURTHER, THE APPELLANT'S POSSESSION OF SUCH AMMUNITION IS EXEMPTED.
POINT 7: THE DEFENDANT'S POSSESSION OF HIS LAWFULLY ACQUIRED PROPERTY WAS PROTECTED UNDER THE SECOND AMENDMENT."

but they lost in NJ court and in appeal.

HP are illegal in NJ, but there are exceptions/exemptions,

"N.J.S.A. 2C:39-3(f)(l) specifically prohibits possession of "hollow nose or dum-dum bullet

The court in Aitken specifically cites the difference in there transport law for weapons vs HP ammunition, and the fact that HP does not allow for transport between homes, as the law for weapon transport does:

 

"Brian also argues that, using the rule of lenity, we should interpret N.J.S.A. 2C:39-3(g)(2)(a) as including an exception for moving hollow nose bullets between residences, even though it is not included in the statutory language.

....

N.J.S.A. 2C:39-3(g)(2)(a) provides as follows: "Nothing in subsection [(f)](1) shall be construed to prevent a person from keeping such ammunition at his dwelling, premises or other land owned or possessed by him, or from carrying such ammunition from the place of purchase to said dwelling or land . . . ." In contrast to N.J.S.A. 2C:39-6(e), which concerns exemptions with respect to the possession of weapons, N.J.S.A. 2C:39-3(g)(2)(a) does not contain a specific exemption for possession while moving between residences. Citing the concept of lenity, Brian argues that we should read that exemption into the statute."

 

[45Doll 5,873]

26 minutes ago, leahcim said:

The court in Aitken specifically cites the difference in there transport law for weapons vs HP ammunition, and the fact that HP does not allow for transport between homes, as the law for weapon transport does:

This illustrates how poorly and inconsistently NJ writes laws that later entrap citizens harboring no criminal intent. They treat hollow point bullets (yes, just the bullet, not the assembled round) as though they were nuclear weapons.

It may be helpful to recall that the starting point in NJ statutes is that EVERYTHING is banned. And then EXCEPTIONS are 'granted' to us lowly serfs.

[leahcim 678]

8 hours ago, 45Doll said:

This illustrates how poorly and inconsistently NJ writes laws that later entrap citizens harboring no criminal intent. They treat hollow point bullets (yes, just the bullet, not the assembled round) as though they were nuclear weapons.

It may be helpful to recall that the starting point in NJ statutes is that EVERYTHING is banned. And then EXCEPTIONS are 'granted' to us lowly serfs.

And this was a big part of Aitken defense argument, that the law was overly vague. Unfortunately the appeal court did not agree.

 

[ESB 244]

On 3/2/2023 at 8:09 PM, RadioGunner said:

That is incorrect.

 

NJSA 2C:39-3 f.Dum-dum or body armor penetrating bullets.  (1) Any person, other than a law enforcement officer or persons engaged in activities pursuant to subsection f. of N.J.S.2C:39-6

The exemption for moving is NJS 2C:39-6(e). 

NJS 2C:39-6(f) is strictly about target practice. 
 

Instead of NJS 2C:39-6(e) they put a narrower exemption. 

NJSA 2C:39-3g(2)  a.  Nothing in subsection f. (1) shall be construed to prevent a person from keeping such ammunition at his dwelling, premises or other land owned or possessed by him, or from carrying such ammunition from the place of purchase to said dwelling or land, 

 

Says nothing about moving. Only says you’re legal to possess at your dwelling, premises, land owned or possessed - and - only FROM place of purchase to your home. You can’t even take it out of your home unless you’re going to target practice. 
 

 

 

It does not say only from place of purchase to home.  

 They are legal for purchase and possess in your home or on land owned by you.  They are legal to possess and use at a gun range.  They are also legal to possess while traveling to and from such places.

 

If you own a home and you also own land at a separate location, they are legal to possess while traveling to and from such places.  If you own 2 homes, they are legal to possess while traveling to and from such places. 

Do you have ANY OTHER example other than Aiken (in which the sentence was commuted and he was pardoned)?  

[Tunaman 548]

23 minutes ago, ESB said:

 

It does not say only from place of purchase to home.  

 They are legal for purchase and possess in your home or on land owned by you.  They are legal to possess and use at a gun range.  They are also legal to possess while traveling to and from such places.

 

If you own a home and you also own land at a separate location, they are legal to possess while traveling to and from such places.  If you own 2 homes, they are legal to possess while traveling to and from such places. 

Do you have ANY OTHER example other than Aiken (in which the sentence was commuted and he was pardoned)?  

but he wasn't going to his home or land owned by him.  He was bouncing around at different friends houses. He should have left the hollow points home until he established a residence,  then he could have gone back for the hollow points.  I dont agree that he should have been arrested for them,  but that is the strict (too strict as that is reason he was pardoned) letter of the law that the cops followed. You cant drive around with them in your car going nowhere special.  They treat them the same as handguns in this god forsaken state.

[ESB 244]

Exactly so STOP trying to apply Aitken to this situation of the OP who IS traveling from one home to another!  

[Tunaman 548]

My advice ONLY pertains to a move within the state of NJ.  Once he crosses the state line,  he need only follow the laws of the state he is now in.

[GRIZ 3,369]

Put your hollowpoint bullets in your car or let the mover move them.

IANAL but I can't see a prosecutor going after you.

I related earlier someone was arrested at Newark Airport for having a hollowpoint bullet on a Keychain but not prosecuted.

If it comes down to that, you don't need a "gun lawyer"  you need a good criminal defense lawyer.

I predict you will make your move with no problems.

[leahcim 678]

27 minutes ago, GRIZ said:

Put your hollowpoint bullets in your car or let the mover move them.

IANAL but I can't see a prosecutor going after you.

I related earlier someone was arrested at Newark Airport for having a hollowpoint bullet on a Keychain but not prosecuted.

If it comes down to that, you don't need a "gun lawyer"  you need a good criminal defense lawyer.

I predict you will make your move with no problems.

I 100% agree.  Just load the ammo in your vehicle and drive out of this state (maintaining speed limit) and shake the dust off your feet when you leave.

Don't let your Mom call the police, don't agree to drive back and meet the police somewhere in NJ, do not consent to search-these are a few of Aitken's mistakes.

[45Doll 5,873]

Bullets.

Passenger arrested after police find hollow-point bullets, open containers of marijuana during traffic stop - WRNJ Radio

[CMJeepster 2,777]

42 minutes ago, 45Doll said:

Bullets.

Passenger arrested after police find hollow-point bullets, open containers of marijuana during traffic stop - WRNJ Radio

How are they charging him with possession of pot?

[124gr9mm 859]

36 minutes ago, 45Doll said:

Bullets.

Passenger arrested after police find hollow-point bullets, open containers of marijuana during traffic stop - WRNJ Radio

While the article doesn't explicitly state it, it seems like those are loaded rounds, not just bullet heads.

[10X 3,296]

29 minutes ago, 124gr9mm said:

While the article doesn't explicitly state it, it seems like those are loaded rounds, not just bullet heads.

The article refers to them both as 'bullets' and 'ammunition'; the press commonly uses those interchangeably.  I also suspect they were caught with ammunition.   

I'd promise to never again complain about the media getting bullets/ammo and magazines/clips wrong, if only they'd stop referring to semiautomatics as 'assault weapons'.   But they're doing the latter intentionally, so that won't happen...

[CMJeepster 2,777]

54 minutes ago, 10X said:

The article refers to them both as 'bullets' and 'ammunition'; the press commonly uses those interchangeably.  I also suspect they were caught with ammunition.   

I'd promise to never again complain about the media getting bullets/ammo and magazines/clips wrong, if only they'd stop referring to semiautomatics as 'assault weapons'.   But they're doing the latter intentionally, so that won't happen...

Control the narrative, control the thoughts.