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oldguysrule649

Tested my intended carry ammo - a FAIL

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It has been often recommended that you test your firearms with the ammunition you plan to carry.  As such I did so this morning using my Glock 26 and Glock 19 with Hornady Critical Defense(#90250, 115 grain).  Wanted to share my findings.  Bear in mind that this is MY experience with MY specific firearms and magazines.  So YMMV.  The key take away is how truly important it is for you to test your carry ammo first before you rely on it.  (Fwiw, my PTC application has been submitted and is in process.)

The short version is: I have concluded that Critical Defense is unreliable in my Glock 19 and Glock 26 for self-defense use.   Experienced five Failure to Feeds out of a total of 114 rounds.  Am disappointed to have to say that, since I had hoped it would have been flawless.  In the coming weeks, I intend to evaluate alternatives starting with Critical Duty, some of which I already have on hand.

The longer version for those interested:

Prior to today the total round counts for my Glock 26 Gen 4 and Glock 19 Gen 4 were approx 1,500 and 3,000 respectively.  The vast majority of that was with various brands of 115gr FMJ range ammo.  To my knowledge, the Glock 26 had previously experienced only two failures to feed  ever and the Glock 19 one failure to feed ever. Both firearms are as they came from the factory.  No modifications. 

This morning I used two G19 magazines.  When used in the G26, I use an X-Rite adapter to fill the gap. (I normally shoot the G26 this way for comfort sake due to arthritis.)

Half of the rounds thru each firearm were older stock CD with the nickel plated cases,  and the other half were recently purchased CD with brass cases.

I took notes during the session.  The five Failure to Feeds spanned both firearms, both magazines, and both CD case types.  The one point of commonality was that every FTF that occurred was the last cartridge in the mag.  Also, the resulting jams were rather nasty.  The mags would not eject and it took multiple attempts to manipulate the slide to get the jammed rounds to fall out.   The thought of this happening during a real self-defense situation was quite alarming. 

Thoughts and suggestions are welcomed.

 

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Always a good idea to run the ammo you'll be using through your pistols.

Have you ever run hot rounds through your pistols before?  CD is snappier than regular factory loads, so if your grip isn't used to it you could have been limp-wristing.

I've never heard of Glock's having issues with CD, so it sounds like something particular to your gun.


I use Critical Duty 135 gr without issue in multiple pistols, so maybe give that a try.

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Could be a good number of factors causing this.  Were the guns clean?  Mags clean?  Are the mags feeding fine with other ammo?  With the G26 - does the X-Rite adapter cause any issues or changes to the angle or feed geometry?

Also - how were they failing to feed?  Were the rounds nosing up and not chambering fully?  Nosing down?  Double feeding?  Any difference in felt recoil when you experienced issues?

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9 hours ago, Krdshrk said:

Could be a good number of factors causing this.  Were the guns clean?  Mags clean?  Are the mags feeding fine with other ammo?  With the G26 - does the X-Rite adapter cause any issues or changes to the angle or feed geometry?

Also - how were they failing to feed?  Were the rounds nosing up and not chambering fully?  Nosing down?  Double feeding?  Any difference in felt recoil when you experienced issues?

-The guns and magazines were clean.

- These specific mags have fed fine with regular range ammo.  In fact they were the ones I used to recently qualify for my PTC.

- Never had an issue with the X-Rite with my G26.  (Note that two of the five FTFs were with my Glock 19. No adapter in use.)

- Did not notice a difference in felt recoil.

Regarding how they were positioned. Most if not all were as shown in the attached pic of my Glock 19.  Ie it appears the front of the cartridge got hung up instead chambering.  (The picture is not great but it was the best I could do at the time.)  I believe the slide partially moved forward before getting hung up by the rear of the cartridge.  This was the nastiest of the five failures. Had trouble clearing it. Almost called over the RSO for assistance. Ended up holding the slide back, used a wooden dowel to push the round down, and then was able to release the slide.  Only then was I able to drop the slide and clear the round.

Thank you

 

IMG_4704Edited.jpg

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13 hours ago, oldguysrule649 said:

The short version is: I have concluded that Critical Defense is unreliable in my Glock 19 and Glock 26 for self-defense use.   Experienced five Failure to Feeds out of a total of 114 rounds.  Am disappointed to have to say that, since I had hoped it would have been flawless.  In the coming weeks, I intend to evaluate alternatives starting with Critical Duty, some of which I already

I don't have any suggestions, but I applaud you for testing with 114 rounds of expensive premium ammo.   I confess, my own testing with carry ammo hasn't been nearly that extensive.  I call it good if I get through a couple of mags with zero failures, and have tested seating a full mag with a round already in chamber, seating a full mag with slide locked open, and feeding the last round in a mag--some of the more common failure scenarios.  

I should probably go burn some more of the expensive stuff at the range.

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8 minutes ago, oldguysrule649 said:

Was not thrilled about the expense. I still have 100 rounds of CD left over that I will not be using. With that said,  of course our lives are worth far more.

I hope you'll at least use it to practice at the range.

Even if you get additional jams, you'll get the opportunity to drill clearing the gun.

(I had a .22 conversion slide on a Tanfoglio pistol that my daughter used for action shooting.  The thing would occasionally jam, so she got LOTS of practice clearing failures.  When she moved up to 9mm she was already an expert at clearing the gun)

 

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4 hours ago, oldguysrule649 said:

-The guns and magazines were clean.

- These specific mags have fed fine with regular range ammo.  In fact they were the ones I used to recently qualify for my PTC.

- Never had an issue with the X-Rite with my G26.  (Note that two of the five FTFs were with my Glock 19. No adapter in use.)

- Did not notice a difference in felt recoil.

Regarding how they were positioned. Most if not all were as shown in the attached pic of my Glock 19.  Ie it appears the front of the cartridge got hung up instead chambering.  (The picture is not great but it was the best I could do at the time.)  I believe the slide partially moved forward before getting hung up by the rear of the cartridge.  This was the nastiest of the five failures. Had trouble clearing it. Almost called over the RSO for assistance. Ended up holding the slide back, used a wooden dowel to push the round down, and then was able to release the slide.  Only then was I able to drop the slide and clear the round.

Thank you

 

IMG_4704Edited.jpg

That nose-dive type malfunction is almost guaranteed to be a mag issue, in my experience. 

Glock OEM reduced capacity 10round mags are not known for reliability and the different follower can cause issues.

Maybe try replacing the springs with Wolff +10% springs or try Magpul 10round G19 mags. Remember, the Glock relies on the mag spring as part of the extraction/ejection cycle. If the mag springs are weak, you can have a slow down in the ejection process which can lead to feeding issues.

I’d also try shooting the 26 with standard OEM G26 mags (add a Pearce +0 Pinky shelf type mag floor-plate to get a full-size grip feel) and see what shakes.

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With the age and round count you mentioned, I'd certainly try new mags since they're so cheap.  As others have said, Glock 10-rounders can be troublesome.  Since all failures were the last round in the mag that points to weak springs.  Good luck.

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This may also be attributable to worn recoil springs - although not so much for the G26 with the lower round count.

Regular 115gr rounds are fairly zippy (compared with heavier bullets). Slide speed is directly related to bullet speed. If your recoil spring is underpowered it will resist the slide less than a new one which will also increase the slide speed. The faster the slide speed, the less time there is for the fresh round to move to the feed lips of the magazine which means it may not be in the optimal position to chamber correctly. This only be happening on the last round in the mag is consistent with this theory as that is the round with least upward tension on it from the mag spring.

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I oversaw a  couple of hundred Glocks from 1978 to 2005.  We're talking agents shooting about 1000 rds a year plus so we're talking  over a million rounds.  Malfunctions, other than limp writing, those were gone early in our transition, could be counted on my fingers and toes.  They were always the result of magazines.

But what do I know.  I've only been shooting Glocks for over 40 years.

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10 hours ago, GRIZ said:

I oversaw a  couple of hundred Glocks from 1978 to 2005.  We're talking agents shooting about 1000 rds a year plus so we're talking  over a million rounds.  Malfunctions, other than limp writing, those were gone early in our transition, could be counted on my fingers and toes.  They were always the result of magazines.

But what do I know.  I've only been shooting Glocks for over 40 years.

How'd you get glocks in 1978 when they were introduced in 1982. And that's if you were working with the austrian army. 

As for OP's problem, I'd look at cartrtidge overall length vs. mag length/depth. My guess is the tip of the cartridge is dragging, and this is not a problem with FMJ, but is with the polymer filled tip. 

Normally I'd be with you that it's a mag problem, but given the current state of the ammo industry, QC issues are much more likely, so I wouldn't rule out ammo issues as well. 

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There are some minor dimensional differences with the Glock factory 10 round mags. Not just with the followers, but the baseplates, and mag bodies as well. 
 

Try the Magpul 10 round mags. I bet your issues go away. 


 

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1 hour ago, raz-0 said:

How'd you get glocks in 1978 when they were introduced in 1982. And that's if you were working with the austrian army. 

My error. 1998 to 2005.

Also should have said almost 40 years.  Shot my first Glock in 1986.

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Video guy i annoying, but he does a side by side comparison of Critical Duty vs Critical Defense in ballistics gel:

 

https://rumble.com/v1ucfrh-does-barrel-length-matter-hornady-critical-duty-vs-critical-defense-revisit.html

 

 

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Thank you all for your interest and feedback.  I just got back from the range after doing another round of testing.

Same two firearms, the Glock 19 and Glock 26.  This time I used two brand new OEM Glock 19 Gen4 10 round mags I purchased about six years ago.  I numbered them "#7" and "#8" respectively.   In the G26, I used the X-Rite adapter as before.

This evening I shot a total of 96 rounds (Hornady Critical Defense 115 gr FTX #90250).  Shot 48 rounds thru each gun with an equal amount of new CD brass cased and older stock CD nickel plated, thru each of the two mags. Loaded each mag with only three rounds at a time to maximize the number of "last rounds" I would be shooting.  Ie 32 mag insertions each containing three rounds.

Experienced a total of three failures to feed, all on the last round, all brass cased, all with mag #7. Frankly, I don't think the case material matters. Nor do I think the mag really mattered given both were new.  

image.png.63031e18895a653227e05545dfc374db.png

I took much better pictures this time. Various pics attached below.  In all three failures the round appears to be getting hung up on the bottom of the feed ramp. 

The bottomline for me is that it is time to cut my losses and select/evaluate an alternative non-hollowpoint expanding cartridge.  Given the approx 4% failure rate I encountered across these two rounds of tests, I not confident at all in the reliability of CD in my two intended carry firearms. The thought of encountering a malfunction at a critical moment in a self defense situation is terrifying.

So some personal lessons I have learned:

- Do test your carry ammunition in your carry firearms.  Don't assume they will be reliable just because your firearms have been flawless with FMJ range ammo.

- Use new(ish) magazines in your carry firearms.

- Do practice malfunction clearing drills.   Your life will depend on it.

- Do carry a second magazine. Not just for more rounds but also in the case you need to replace your primary mag in the event of a malfunction.

I will let everyone know what alternative brand/type of ammo I select and test.  (Corbon Powrball (sp?) comes to mind.).  Suggestions welcome.  

 

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I agree you need to find a round that you can rely on, but don't overlook practicing malfunction clearing too. If you do wind up needing your gun, it will almost certainly not be under the most ideal circumstances. Things can and will go wrong.

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13 hours ago, oldguysrule649 said:

I used the X-Rite adapter as before

Could be an issue with the adapter.

I presume you're using it so you can run longer magazines, but it could be causing alignment to be off a little.

Interesting to see your results on other HP ammo...

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Just wanted to acknowledge some of the additional feedback above:

Regarding cartridge dimensions and recoil spring weakness: certainly valid considerations.  However now out of scope for me since I have decided to move on to other cartridge alternatives.

I have ruled out the X-Rite adapter as the root cause.  In both test sessions, the failures occurred both with and without the use of the adapter.

I have ruled out the barrel/feed ramp itself as the root cause. In both test sessions, the failures occurred both with both the G19 and G26.

(Btw, made doubly sure I did not limp-wrist last evening.)

I have just placed an order with MidwayUSA for some Lehigh Defense Xtreme Defense 90gr ammunition. (Similar in concept to the Norma NXD suggested above.) Am looking forward to testing them in a few weeks time.  Will update everyone.  

(And yes, this ammo testing endeavor is sure getting expensive....lol)

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I'm a bit surprised about reliability with different ammo in a G19 now.  The agency I worked for for transitioned from the 6906 to the G19 in 1998.  The G19 weighs about 21 oz and the 6906 about 26. I guess the 5 oz makes a difference limp wristing.  After addressing limp wristing issues, overseeing about 200 Glocks for 7 years, each firing about 1000 rds a year between quals and training, I could count the malfunctions encountered on my fingers and toes.  All magazine related.

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