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Townhall90

Crippling divorces..

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Some years back my best friend and coworker for 25 years married a woman who just about destroyed him mentally and financially within their 18 months of marriage. It was horrific to watch. He took off of work for weeks at a time and stopped communicating with me at one point. I told him if he didn't return my messages or answer the door I was going to call the cops to do a welfare check. He called me back (fully drunk) and told me what was going on at the time. He nearly lost his job but pulled himself together, came back to work and filed for divorce.

Last year one of the best workers and most reliable guys in my department started having attendance issues. When I sat him down to talk about it he showed me some texts from his Wife. Vicious, rambling accusations that were hard for me to believe to be true of the guy. I asked if he needed a leave of absence to work things out. He said no, and resigned. Said he just couldn't continue working due to the stress. Two kids under 10 years old and he walked away from a secure, $75K job with full benefits. Nothing I said could convince him to stay.

Up until being laid off from my previous job in 2016, my right hand man and I had worked there together for 10 years. He still works there, and has been with the company for 33 years. I heard from a friend that he'd been out on medical leave for three months, and he was asking for my phone number. He called me last week, just to talk. Said that his Wife of 20+ years had disappeared, along with all of the money in their joint accounts. She will not contact him, and he's filed for divorce. Absolutely devastated and says he feels that his life is over (he assured me that he's not suicidal).

I wish I could do or say something truly meaningful to help in these situations but it feels like watching a friend bleeding badly, and there's nothing I or anyone else can do to stop it.
 

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Just be his friend. Most likely, that’s what he needs most. There is nothing magic you can say that will ease his pain. Being his friend is the best you can do. 
 

Make time in your life to include him. 

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5 hours ago, Townhall90 said:

Said that his Wife of 20+ years had disappeared, along with all of the money in their joint accounts. 
 

No way should men have joint bank accounts these days, way too risky. Doesn't matter how long you've been married.

Should be like the old days when the man owned everything, kept the wives on their best behavior.

Of course thats getting harder to do as more women are out earning their husbands now. I've got two neighbors that are stay at home dads living off their wives, but they'd still probably get boned in a divorce. 

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On 5/3/2023 at 2:47 PM, Bomber said:

No way should men have joint bank accounts these days, way too risky. Doesn't matter how long you've been married.

Should be like the old days when the man owned everything, kept the wives on their best behavior.

Of course thats getting harder to do as more women are out earning their husbands now. I've got two neighbors that are stay at home dads living off their wives, but they'd still probably get boned in a divorce. 

Me and the wife, and she makes 2x my salary, have separate accounts. 

We decided early on that we would maintain seperate accounts, determine what we each would contribute, and then put money into a joint account for monthly expenses. 

It's works well. 

She has sperate savings as do I. 

Our joint account basically only has a month's worth of bills in it. 

If we want to make big purchase we then discuss how to pay or save for it. 

A lot of reasons for this, she has student debt and I don't. I have some inheritance money, and most likely more coming in the future. We don't have to justify what we are spending our own money on etc. 

Money is the #1 reason people get divorced. 

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2 hours ago, JackDaWack said:

Me and the wife, and she makes 2x my salary, have separate accounts. 

We decided early on that we would maintain seperate accounts, determine what we each would contribute, and then put money into a joint account for monthly expenses. 

It's works well. 

She has sperate savings as do I. 

Our joint account basically only has a month's worth of bills in it. 

If we want to make big purchase we then discuss how to pay or save for it. 

A lot of reasons for this, she has student debt and I don't. I have some inheritance money, and most likely more coming in the future. We don't have to justify what we are spending our own money on etc. 

Money is the #1 reason people get divorced. 

We have a practically identical arrangement that has worked for 50 years of unmarried and married life.

In the beginning, I voiced my opinion that in general, many people lose their sense of identity when everything is homogenized. And I think that's a conscious and sub-conscious factor. We also each have a room to ourselves to do with as we please. It's amazing how many discussions we've had on joint purchases without it turning into an argument. And if either of us wants something of no interest to the other, we buy it with our own money. End of story.

Over the years our salaries have been basically the same, with one holding an edge for a couple years at a time, switching back and forth depending on job tracks. Our salaries were more than decent, and we're both conservative with our money, so with the exception of my credit card binge back in the 80's (which I recognized, corrected, and never paid interest on a CC again) we've definitely lived within our means.

I have recommended this strategy to many pre-marital couples over the years. Never really found an argument against it.

And if someone said the equivalent of 'if we love each other it won't matter', my response always was "Wanna bet?".

No one ever took me up on that.

Side note: I wrote our nuptial agreement (You really do mean what you said, right?), and both our attorneys asked to keep copies and permission to use it as a template for other clients.

45Doll Esq.

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1 hour ago, 45Doll said:

 

Side note: I wrote our nuptial agreement (You really do mean what you said, right?), and both our attorneys asked to keep copies and permission to use it as a template for other clients.

45Doll Esq.

 

 

Care to share that template??

 

 

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2 hours ago, eyeinstine said:

Care to share that template??

I'll have to see. I know I have the hard copy. But the original was written with Word Perfect. If I still have the digital version of it, and can redact personal information from it, I'll consider it. If I have it it's buried somewhere in my archives from previous PCs I've had.

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16 hours ago, 45Doll said:

I'll have to see. I know I have the hard copy. But the original was written with Word Perfect. If I still have the digital version of it, and can redact personal information from it, I'll consider it. If I have it it's buried somewhere in my archives from previous PCs I've had.

Scan, recognize text in Adobe, then convert to word.

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On 5/5/2023 at 1:41 PM, 45Doll said:

Side note: I wrote our nuptial agreement (You really do mean what you said, right?), and both our attorneys asked to keep copies and permission to use it as a template for other clients.

45Doll Esq.

I've heard family court judges enjoy throwing out pre-nuptial agreements?

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My wife and I went the joint-account route and it's worked well for us.

We've been married for 25 years (together 28) and for the first 8 years she made more than me.  After that I started making more and the gap increased pretty significantly.

We have a large family, so the logistics of splitting costs seemed like it would take more time than it was worth (particularly now with multiple kids in college) so we always combined things.

I have some guns and some musical instruments, and she has her hobby stuff, but most of the extra spend for both of us has gone towards family stuff (vacations, camper, kayaks, etc, etc).

Yes, from a strict dollar perspective I'm contributing 'more', but it works for us.

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On 5/6/2023 at 2:32 PM, 124gr9mm said:

My wife and I went the joint-account route and it's worked well for us.

We've been married for 25 years (together 28) and for the first 8 years she made more than me.  After that I started making more and the gap increased pretty significantly.

We have a large family, so the logistics of splitting costs seemed like it would take more time than it was worth (particularly now with multiple kids in college) so we always combined things.

I have some guns and some musical instruments, and she has her hobby stuff, but most of the extra spend for both of us has gone towards family stuff (vacations, camper, kayaks, etc, etc).

Yes, from a strict dollar perspective I'm contributing 'more', but it works for us.

Excellent. In hindsight we didn't really need a prenuptial agreement. And over the years we have in fact had lopsided 'joint' expenditures that one of us chose to pay more for because we wanted to and could. I think that's called 'teamwork'.

From my perspective, the primary reason we did a prenup was:

    For Her - She'd had been married once and got screwed in the divorce. Basically walked away with a few thousand she came in with, and a '66 Chevelle with a three-speed on the column, no A/C and manual brakes. Wow! Thanks for the 10 year ride! I definitely did not want her to get 'screwed' again if by chance something happened to my personality that was beyond my imagination.

    For Me - I finally concluded that if my real intentions were as big as my mouth, I shouldn't have any problem putting it in writing and signing on the dotted line. Plus it was good exercise to compose my thoughts on paper. In other words: trust, but verify.

I think tomorrow I'll have a summary of our prenup. And another short story.

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18 hours ago, Bomber said:

I've heard family court judges enjoy throwing out pre-nuptial agreements?

Not sure how they just throw out a legally binding document unless someone violated an agreement. 

It's also why you can't half ass a prenuptial, if it's not written clearly and both parties don't have independent counsel, than it can be disputed. 

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Hmm... we have a joint account, I worked 2 jobs for years paid for the mortgage, kid's private school, 3 college educations and funded a retirement.  My wife didn't work.  I think I I need to look into separate accounts. 

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So after rummaging through our records and some joint conversation I've pieced together the prenuptial agreement process from 30 years ago.

I wrote out in plain English what our intentions were, and what we wanted the prenup to do. My lawyer turned that into a legalese document. I reviewed that and corrected what he got wrong. He made the necessary revisions and gave it back. I then reviewed the 'final' version and wrote down what I thought the legalese meant, to make sure I wasn't reading it wrong. I didn't misread it, so he finalized it, her lawyer reviewed it, and we signed off.

So actually I never had a digital copy of the final legal document; just the hard copies.

Side note: We operated this way for 18 years before we got married. And after we married nothing changed. Who knew? :icon_razz:

Here is the final plain English summary of what the prenup meant:

Page 1.

We're getting married, and we want to decide in advance the claims we will and will not have against each other as a result of the marriage, including all rights as stated.

We think this is a good idea.

Therefore, we agree as follows:

Paragraphs:

1. We each know the assets and liabilities of the other, and have attached the detailed schedules. We're satisfied we know enough.

2. This only affects us once we marry.

3. We each retain the ownership of everything we now individually own, and the future worth of same, and will do so in the future. This property will not become community property. Also, any property we individually acquire during the marriage by gift, prize, bequest, inheritance etc. will not be community property.

4. Anything not covered by 3, along with our current joint property, will be community property. The real estate will be divided regardless of how it's titled.

5. If we divorce, neither of us is obligated to support the other.

6. We are suspending the rights normally granted to us as each other's spouse. We can still leave whatever we want to each other in a will, and be the personal representative of the other. And this agreement will not supersede the rights of ownership in jointly held property.

7. Life insurance must be addressed.

8. Our lawyers have explained the law, and this agreement, to us. We agree it's fair, and we want to do it. Neither of us is coercing the other. This agreement will cover the property distribution in the event of death or divorce. (Therefore, we need wills.)

9. Money and property held by each of us before the marriage, will still be ours individually.

10. Joint property and money will be community property, and will be split 50/50.

11. Standard agreement disclaimer.

12. This agreement binds our heirs.

13. We agree to sign all necessary papers. 

14. We may modify the provisions of this agreement, but only in writing.

15. We'll each pay our own lawyers.

16. Getting away with something doesn't mean anyone agreed to anything!

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11 hours ago, jm1827 said:

Hmm... we have a joint account, I worked 2 jobs for years paid for the mortgage, kid's private school, 3 college educations and funded a retirement.  My wife didn't work.  I think I I need to look into separate accounts. 

Maybe I'm being dense. I honestly can't tell if this is a joke... if it's a joke, then "ha-ha, ya got me good!" ;)

If it's NOT a joke... let me give you a woman's perspective: while you hustled on those two jobs to support your family (and all due credit to you, good sir... sounds like you were a great provider)... I notice you neglected to mention that you also paid for a nanny...or a housekeeper? If that wasn't by accident, may I assume that it was your wife who bore the brunt of domestic bliss like: wiping snotty noses? waking up at midnight to soothe a feverish child? changing disgusting, dirty diapers? running kids back and forth to dr's app'ts & after-school events? fixing them an after-school snack and going over their homework? doing the family laundry? cooking family meals? cleaning up after those meals? packing school lunches? cleaning the house? etc., etc. If so, oh, she worked alright! She just didn't work "outside the home". And if your 3 kids are already through college, then I presume you've been married 25+ years? And you think it might be a good idea to just drop THIS on her: "Hey, I've decided to split the money into separate accounts..."???  :facepalm:  Oh, goodness... you might want to slow your roll and think that through! Because I can just about guarantee you, that plan will be the equivalent of taking a hatchet to the family you so carefully built over the decades.

Don't get me wrong... I can absolutely see the wisdom of pre-nups, separate + joint accounts, etc. for that new couple (young or old) who doesn't have the history and built-up trust of an established couple. But if you start proposing money changes NOW... at this late stage of your marriage?... I can promise you, she's going to think you've met someone else and you're planning to leave her high and dry. She'll likely be distraught AND suspicious... your kids will undoubtedly catch wind of it... and THEY will be suspicious of you, too (logically, since you're the one proposing the change). Everything you've built - or should I say, the IMPORTANT things - like the respect and goodwill your wife and kids hold for you - POOF! Gone in an instant. For what? If you have tangible, solid, proven reasons to distrust her, that's ONE thing... but to wreck your presumably decent family relations FOR NO GOOD REASON because of what someone wrote on a gun forum... OH, PLEASE TELL ME YOU WERE JOKING! :unsure:

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10 hours ago, jm1827 said:

Hmm... we have a joint account, I worked 2 jobs for years paid for the mortgage, kid's private school, 3 college educations and funded a retirement.  My wife didn't work.  I think I I need to look into separate accounts. 

Why?

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5 hours ago, Mrs. Peel said:

Maybe I'm being dense. I honestly can't tell if this is a joke... if it's a joke, then "ha-ha, ya got me good!" ;)

If it's NOT a joke... let me give you a woman's perspective: while you hustled on those two jobs to support your family (and all due credit to you, good sir... sounds like you were a great provider)... I notice you neglected to mention that you also paid for a nanny...or a housekeeper? If that wasn't by accident, may I assume that it was your wife who bore the brunt of domestic bliss like: wiping snotty noses? waking up at midnight to soothe a feverish child? changing disgusting, dirty diapers? running kids back and forth to dr's app'ts & after-school events? fixing them an after-school snack and going over their homework? doing the family laundry? cooking family meals? cleaning up after those meals? packing school lunches? cleaning the house? etc., etc. If so, oh, she worked alright! She just didn't work "outside the home". And if your 3 kids are already through college, then I presume you've been married 25+ years? And you think it might be a good idea to just drop THIS on her: "Hey, I've decided to split the money into separate accounts..."???  :facepalm:  Oh, goodness... you might want to slow your roll and think that through! Because I can just about guarantee you, that plan will be the equivalent of taking a hatchet to the family you so carefully built over the decades.

Don't get me wrong... I can absolutely see the wisdom of pre-nups, separate + joint accounts, etc. for that new couple (young or old) who doesn't have the history and built-up trust of an established couple. But if you start proposing money changes NOW... at this late stage of your marriage?... I can promise you, she's going to think you've met someone else and you're planning to leave her high and dry. She'll likely be distraught AND suspicious... your kids will undoubtedly catch wind of it... and THEY will be suspicious of you, too (logically, since you're the one proposing the change). Everything you've built - or should I say, the IMPORTANT things - like the respect and goodwill your wife and kids hold for you - POOF! Gone in an instant. For what? If you have tangible, solid, proven reasons to distrust her, that's ONE thing... but to wreck your presumably decent family relations FOR NO GOOD REASON because of what someone wrote on a gun forum... OH, PLEASE TELL ME YOU WERE JOKING! :unsure:

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15 hours ago, Mrs. Peel said:

Maybe I'm being dense. I honestly can't tell if this is a joke... if it's a joke, then "ha-ha, ya got me good!" ;)

If it's NOT a joke... let me give you a woman's perspective: while you hustled on those two jobs to support your family (and all due credit to you, good sir... sounds like you were a great provider)... I notice you neglected to mention that you also paid for a nanny...or a housekeeper? If that wasn't by accident, may I assume that it was your wife who bore the brunt of domestic bliss like: wiping snotty noses? waking up at midnight to soothe a feverish child? changing disgusting, dirty diapers? running kids back and forth to dr's app'ts & after-school events? fixing them an after-school snack and going over their homework? doing the family laundry? cooking family meals? cleaning up after those meals? packing school lunches? cleaning the house? etc., etc. If so, oh, she worked alright! She just didn't work "outside the home". And if your 3 kids are already through college, then I presume you've been married 25+ years? And you think it might be a good idea to just drop THIS on her: "Hey, I've decided to split the money into separate accounts..."???  :facepalm:  Oh, goodness... you might want to slow your roll and think that through! Because I can just about guarantee you, that plan will be the equivalent of taking a hatchet to the family you so carefully built over the decades.

Don't get me wrong... I can absolutely see the wisdom of pre-nups, separate + joint accounts, etc. for that new couple (young or old) who doesn't have the history and built-up trust of an established couple. But if you start proposing money changes NOW... at this late stage of your marriage?... I can promise you, she's going to think you've met someone else and you're planning to leave her high and dry. She'll likely be distraught AND suspicious... your kids will undoubtedly catch wind of it... and THEY will be suspicious of you, too (logically, since you're the one proposing the change). Everything you've built - or should I say, the IMPORTANT things - like the respect and goodwill your wife and kids hold for you - POOF! Gone in an instant. For what? If you have tangible, solid, proven reasons to distrust her, that's ONE thing... but to wreck your presumably decent family relations FOR NO GOOD REASON because of what someone wrote on a gun forum... OH, PLEASE TELL ME YOU WERE JOKING! :unsure:

I've seen discussion threads like this on other forums before.  You get a little bit of everything with responses, especially with a topic like this.

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2 minutes ago, CMJeepster said:

So, you jumped right into it, eh? :icon_lol:

Yes, the big plunge. The funny thing was the attitude of our friends during our POSSLQ years.

Five years in: No one cares because it's fashionable to be living together.

Ten years in: "So why don't you two just get married?"

Fifteen years in: "For god's sake, don't get married and screw it up! You got a good thing going!"

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Best case for someone already established with joint accounts is to place notifications on  withdrawals and payments. 

There are also ways to put money into interest bearing accounts under only your name in the name of "retirement".. 

No one said you couldn't get creative to avoid the unnecessary trust conflict. 

At the end of the day, money earned is typically communal within a marriage unless otherwise stated.  

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