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Ayoob On Carrying With A Chambered Live Round

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Mas explains pros and cons of carrying chambered, and alternatives. Also, did you realize most ARs and shotguns are not considered drop safe and should stored/ready with an empty chamber?

 

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13 minutes ago, maintenanceguy said:

With the safety features and testing that goes into modern firearms and a holster that covers the trigger, I don't know why this is still something we even think about.

Most negligent discharges happen when re holstering.  Clothing gets binded up and as it's pushed into holster depresses the trigger.  It's not the gun ins the operator

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14 hours ago, 45Doll said:

Mas explains pros and cons of carrying chambered, and alternatives. Also, did you realize most ARs and shotguns are not considered drop safe and should stored/ready with an empty chamber?

 

Many safeties on rifles and shotguns today still do nothing more than block travel of the trigger. 
 

When a 1911 safety is engaged, it will block the forward travel of the hammer while the grip safety limits rearward travel of the trigger. JMB knew what he was doing. 
 

Pretty sure the safety lever equipped Sig M17 & M18 locks the sear and trigger bar in the upward position. 
 

The P320 without a safety switch is a different story. 

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On 5/13/2023 at 11:18 AM, FairbanksRusty said:

Many safeties on rifles and shotguns today still do nothing more than block travel of the trigger. 
 

When a 1911 safety is engaged, it will block the forward travel of the hammer while the grip safety limits rearward travel of the trigger. JMB knew what he was doing. 
 

Pretty sure the safety lever equipped Sig M17 & M18 locks the sear and trigger bar in the upward position. 
 

The P320 without a safety switch is a different story. 

Well no.  Many safeties block the sear.

But you have to have a safety to start with.

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On 5/13/2023 at 7:24 AM, Vdep217 said:

Most negligent discharges happen when re holstering.  Clothing gets binded up and as it's pushed into holster depresses the trigger.  It's not the gun ins the operator

You would think that more guns marketed for CCW would have grip safeties then.  Easy to holster without engaging the grip safety, allowing you to fix an issue with clothing or whatever before the gun goes bang accidently.   

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3 hours ago, ESB said:

You would think that more guns marketed for CCW would have grip safeties then.  Easy to holster without engaging the grip safety, allowing you to fix an issue with clothing or whatever before the gun goes bang accidently.   

This doesn’t make sense. A grip safety would not help you at all with reholstering unless you aren’t holding the gun securely or you are dropping the gun into the holster. Both of which are not preferred.

You need keep a solid grip on the gun and push down - especially with concealment holsters that rely on friction to hold the firearm in place - thus disengaging the grip safety when you holster.

You need to holster reluctantly - you should not be in a rush to return the gun to the holster.

Look the gun into the holster and be careful not to sweep body parts.

If you feel any resistance, stop.

Dress appropriately to diminish the chances of clothing binding in your holster.

1 hour ago, 1LtCAP said:

just outta curiousity....what safeties do glocks have? besides the blade on the trigger?

From Glock Website:

https://us.glock.com/en/learn/glock-pistols/safe-action-system

The SAFE ACTION® System is a fully automatic safety system consisting of three passive, independently operating, mechanical safeties. All three safeties disengage sequentially as the trigger is pulled and automatically re-engage when the trigger is released.There are three:

Trigger Safety 

The trigger safety is the first safety in the firing sequence. It’s incorporated into the trigger in the form of a lever and when it is engaged blocks the trigger from moving rearward. To fire the pistol, the trigger safety and the trigger itself must be deliberately depressed at the same time. If the trigger safety is not depressed, the trigger will not move rearwards and allow the pistol to fire.

The trigger safety is designed to prevent the pistol from firing if it’s dropped or if the trigger is subjected to any pressure that isn’t a direct firing pull.

Firing Pin Safety

The second safety, the firing pin safety, mechanically blocks the firing pin from moving forward in the ready-to-fire condition. As the trigger is pulled rearward, the trigger bar pushes the firing pin safety up and frees the firing pin channel. If you decide not to fire and release the trigger, the firing pin safety automatically reengages.

Drop Safety 

The final safety involves the trigger bar, which rests on the safety ramp within the trigger mechanism housing. The trigger bar engages the rear portion of the firing pin and prevents the firing pin from moving forward. As the trigger is pulled rearward the trigger bar lowers down the safety ramp and allows the release of the firing pin. After firing, the trigger bar moves upward and re-engages the firing pin. As the trigger is released, all safeties automatically reengage.

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On 5/13/2023 at 7:24 AM, Vdep217 said:

Most negligent discharges happen when re holstering.  Clothing gets binded up and as it's pushed into holster depresses the trigger.  It's not the gun ins the operator

Where are you getting that information?

I agree that re-holstering can be a time where ND happen, but I've never seen a statistic that says it's the most frequent cause.

I would have guessed that it was "when attempting to clean the gun".

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7 minutes ago, 124gr9mm said:

I would have guessed that it was "when attempting to clean the gun".

That is a euphemism for "I was playing silly beggars with the gun which caused it to fire, but I have decided to lie about it in a useless attempt to convince everybody else that I wasn't playing silly beggars with a gun" 

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2 hours ago, High Exposure said:

This doesn’t make sense. A grip safety would not help you at all with reholstering unless you aren’t holding the gun securely or you are dropping the gun into the holster. Both of which are not preferred.

You need keep a solid grip on the gun and push down - especially with concealment holsters that rely on friction to hold the firearm in place - thus disengaging the grip safety when you holster.

You need to holster reluctantly - you should not be in a rush to return the gun to the holster.

Look the gun into the holster and be careful not to sweep body parts.

If you feel any resistance, stop.

Dress appropriately to diminish the chances of clothing binding in your holster.

From Glock Website:

https://us.glock.com/en/learn/glock-pistols/safe-action-system

The SAFE ACTION® System is a fully automatic safety system consisting of three passive, independently operating, mechanical safeties. All three safeties disengage sequentially as the trigger is pulled and automatically re-engage when the trigger is released.There are three:

Trigger Safety 

The trigger safety is the first safety in the firing sequence. It’s incorporated into the trigger in the form of a lever and when it is engaged blocks the trigger from moving rearward. To fire the pistol, the trigger safety and the trigger itself must be deliberately depressed at the same time. If the trigger safety is not depressed, the trigger will not move rearwards and allow the pistol to fire.

The trigger safety is designed to prevent the pistol from firing if it’s dropped or if the trigger is subjected to any pressure that isn’t a direct firing pull.

Firing Pin Safety

The second safety, the firing pin safety, mechanically blocks the firing pin from moving forward in the ready-to-fire condition. As the trigger is pulled rearward, the trigger bar pushes the firing pin safety up and frees the firing pin channel. If you decide not to fire and release the trigger, the firing pin safety automatically reengages.

Drop Safety 

The final safety involves the trigger bar, which rests on the safety ramp within the trigger mechanism housing. The trigger bar engages the rear portion of the firing pin and prevents the firing pin from moving forward. As the trigger is pulled rearward the trigger bar lowers down the safety ramp and allows the release of the firing pin. After firing, the trigger bar moves upward and re-engages the firing pin. As the trigger is released, all safeties automatically reengage.

thanks! i was asking....because i still can't get myself to chamber a round when carrying the glock. why? because of the safety in the trigger. if something snags the trigger, chances are good it's gonna snag that safety too.

 i get that it's safe, simply because millions of people carry these things. i just haven't got my own head around it yet. i don't have an issue with a chambered round in any of my hammer fired guns.......

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3 hours ago, 1LtCAP said:

thanks! i was asking....because i still can't get myself to chamber a round when carrying the glock. why? because of the safety in the trigger. if something snags the trigger, chances are good it's gonna snag that safety too.

 i get that it's safe, simply because millions of people carry these things. i just haven't got my own head around it yet. i don't have an issue with a chambered round in any of my hammer fired guns.......

It’s new. I get it. It will take time and no one can hurry up your “comfortableness”. And that’s OK. 

I can tell you honestly that I have carried a Glock all day, every day for the last 20 years - AIWB for the last 5 of them. I know dozens of others that have done the same and no one has ever had an issue. On the flip side - people do shoot themselves - but outside the current crop of SigP320 issues (and the jury is still out on if they are NDs or ADs or a combo) they are almost all proven to be NDs due to user error (they are doing something to pull the trigger) and not an AD due to a mechanical defect.

One thing to remember that may make you feel more comfortable - Glocks are not fully pre-cocked like a lot of other striker fired pistols on the market. When you pull the trigger you are actually finishing the “cocking” sequence AND disengaging the three safety features before the sear lets go. That’s why the Glocks are still considered a double action trigger (they call it “Safe Action”, but your really doing 2 things, cocking and firing - hence double action).

A lot of the newest generation of striker guns are pre-cocked at over 95%, compared to the Glocks ~65%. This is also why guns like the HK VP9, CZ P10C, Walther PDP, etc… have the reputation for such “nicer” triggers compared to Glocks. This is also why you need inspect your striker/sear engagement when installing an new trigger/trigger bar and make sure any aftermarket triggers you use don’t mess with the trigger bar and keep the integral safeties and striker interface intact.

If you’re still having safety concerns or trust issues - this is a great device for when you are holstering:

https://langdontactical.com/glock-striker-control-device-scd/

It acts like a hammer on a traditional DA/SA pistol - you put your thumb on the slide plate when you holster. If anything makes the trigger move, you will instantly feel it and know to stop. Some people use it all the time. I got mine for when I take classes where the instructor requires it if you are going to work the class from an AIWB with a Glock.

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24 minutes ago, 124gr9mm said:

You could always go with a striker fired pistol with a safety.

Or a hammer-fired pistol.

Or a hammer-fired pistol with a safety.

Or a revolver.

i'm trying to work with what i've got. i have my 92. i've carried that, and train with it too. i'll be getting a iwb holster for my sig too. but........so far, the 19 is the most comfortable to tuck in the waist....

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4 hours ago, High Exposure said:

It’s new. I get it. It will take time and no one can hurry up your “comfortableness”. And that’s OK. 

I can tell you honestly that I have carried a Glock all day, every day for the last 20 years - AIWB for the last 5 of them. I know dozens of others that have done the same and no one has ever had an issue. On the flip side - people do shoot themselves - but outside the current crop of SigP320 issues (and the jury is still out on if they are NDs or ADs or a combo) they are almost all proven to be NDs due to user error (they are doing something to pull the trigger) and not an AD due to a mechanical defect.

One thing to remember that may make you feel more comfortable - Glocks are not fully pre-cocked like a lot of other striker fired pistols on the market. When you pull the trigger you are actually finishing the “cocking” sequence AND disengaging the three safety features before the sear lets go. That’s why the Glocks are still considered a double action trigger (they call it “Safe Action”, but your really doing 2 things, cocking and firing - hence double action).

A lot of the newest generation of striker guns are pre-cocked at over 95%, compared to the Glocks ~65%. This is also why guns like the HK VP9, CZ P10C, Walther PDP, etc… have the reputation for such “nicer” triggers compared to Glocks. This is also why you need inspect your striker/sear engagement when installing an new trigger/trigger bar and make sure any aftermarket triggers you use don’t mess with the trigger bar and keep the integral safeties and striker interface intact.

If you’re still having safety concerns or trust issues - this is a great device for when you are holstering:

https://langdontactical.com/glock-striker-control-device-scd/

It acts like a hammer on a traditional DA/SA pistol - you put your thumb on the slide plate when you holster. If anything makes the trigger move, you will instantly feel it and know to stop. Some people use it all the time. I got mine for when I take classes where the instructor requires it if you are going to work the class from an AIWB with a Glock.

thanks for that! i'll be ordering one of those puppies!

 

 

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10 minutes ago, 1LtCAP said:

i'm trying to work with what i've got. i have my 92. i've carried that, and train with it too. i'll be getting a iwb holster for my sig too. but........so far, the 19 is the most comfortable to tuck in the waist....

Never carry a Glock without a holster.

I've carried Glocks for about 25 years.  IWB, OWB, shoulder, and ankle holsters.  Never an issue.

The only problem I knew of was a guy who just used to tuck it in his belt, no holster...until he shot himself in the ass.

 

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Just now, GRIZ said:

Never carry a Glock without a holster.

I've carried Glocks for about 25 years.  IWB, OWB, shoulder, and ankle holsters.  Never an issue.

The only problem I knew of was a guy who just used to tuck it in his belt, no holster...until he shot himself in the ass.

 

i don't carry anything on my person unholstered. i don't wanna become a statistic. or experience getting shot.

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22 hours ago, GRIZ said:

Well no.  Many safeties block the sear.

But you have to have a safety to start with.

Some block the sear (M700). But that’s the same safety that for years until 1982 you could pull the trigger, push the safety off and the gun might discharge. Or, slam the butt on the ground and drop the firing pin from an overtinkered sear engagement with the safety off. 
 

Many shotgun and rifle trigger groups of modern rifles and shotguns like 870, 1100, 760, 742, that drop out of the receiver  have a safety that merely limits rearward travel of the trigger. No sear is blocked. 

AR trigger limits trigger travel, but that includes locking the sear engagement surface and movement to the hammer. 
 

Pistol safeties with firing pin blocks, and blades in the trigger face are pretty sophisticated today, many today modulate a firing pin that is half or fully cocked rearward, ready to fly once the trigger is fully depressed and the trigger bar pushes rearward then drops away. 


How did we manage all those years with revolvers that had no safeties? 

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16 hours ago, 124gr9mm said:

Where are you getting that information?

I agree that re-holstering can be a time where ND happen, but I've never seen a statistic that says it's the most frequent cause.

I would have guessed that it was "when attempting to clean the gun".

My information was ND while carrying not maintaining.

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4 hours ago, Vdep217 said:

My information was ND while carrying not maintaining.

regarding nd while reholstering......when i'm reholstering anything inside the waistband, i always look the pistol back intot he holster. and i don't rush. ever.

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2 hours ago, 1LtCAP said:

regarding nd while reholstering......when i'm reholstering anything inside the waistband, i always look the pistol back intot he holster. and i don't rush. ever.

There is nothing different in the correct procedure for any holster, in the waistband or not. 

There is never, ever, not even once, any reason to rush putting a gun into a holster. 

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On 5/15/2023 at 3:00 PM, High Exposure said:

This doesn’t make sense. A grip safety would not help you at all with reholstering unless you aren’t holding the gun securely or you are dropping the gun into the holster. Both of which are not preferred.

You need keep a solid grip on the gun and push down - especially with concealment holsters that rely on friction to hold the firearm in place - thus disengaging the grip safety when you holster.

You need to holster reluctantly - you should not be in a rush to return the gun to the holster.

Look the gun into the holster and be careful not to sweep body parts.

If you feel any resistance, stop.

Dress appropriately to diminish the chances of clothing binding in your holster.

I have a XDS with grip safety. A simple adjustment of my hand releases the grip safety while still securely holding the firearm to safely and slowly re-holster while looking it in.  Basically slide my thumb down to touch my middle finger on the grip, which moves the web of my hand off the grip safety.  My fingers (excluding thumb and web) and everything else remain in the same position, but the grip safety is engaged.  

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On 5/15/2023 at 6:27 PM, High Exposure said:

If you’re still having safety concerns or trust issues - this is a great device for when you are holstering:

https://langdontactical.com/glock-striker-control-device-scd/

Big plus one for these.  I bought 2 back when they were a kickstarter project, still have it on my carry glock.  Gives direct tactile feedback that the trigger is not being engaged when holstering.

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2 hours ago, DirtyDigz said:

Big plus one for these.  I bought 2 back when they were a kickstarter project, still have it on my carry glock.  Gives direct tactile feedback that the trigger is not being engaged when holstering

I just bought one of these for a Glock 43X I have a deposit on, waiting for my P2P. I understand it is kind of like keeping your thumb on the hammer of DA/SA pistol when holstering, but does it just provide you with tactile indication of trigger movement or  does the thumb pressure provide enough force to prevent trigger movement like a hammer fired gun?

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On 5/17/2023 at 4:38 PM, GrumpyOldRetiree said:

I just bought one of these for a Glock 43X I have a deposit on, waiting for my P2P. I understand it is kind of like keeping your thumb on the hammer of DA/SA pistol when holstering, but does it just provide you with tactile indication of trigger movement or  does the thumb pressure provide enough force to prevent trigger movement like a hammer fired gun?

Where did you find one in stock? I checked Langdon yesterday and only the full-size model was in stock, not the 43/48 size.

It works both ways, but just like a DA/SA gun, I would NOT keep pushing if I feel the hammer move - even a tiny bit.

I would stop, fully remove the firearm from the holster, evaluate, remediate the noted issue, and start over.

I would not rely on my thumb pressure to prevent the striker from falling. 

 

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10 minutes ago, High Exposure said:

Where did you find one in stock? I checked Langdon yesterday and only the full-size model was in stock, not the 43/48 size

boresightsolutions.com

BTW...after I ordered it, I got a notification from Langston that they had it back in stock, but that was at least a few days ago.

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4 minutes ago, GrumpyOldRetiree said:

boresightsolutions.com

BTW...after I ordered it, I got a notification from Langston that they had it back in stock, but that was at least a few days ago.

Got it. Thanks. I always forget that Ben carries them as well now. I’m on the email list for LTT as well.

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