Legal to have "Full Auto" Bolt Carrier?

[DirtyDigz 1,811]

I'm looking at buying a CMMG upper for my AR.

 

They offer "Full Auto" bolt carriers as a free option.

 

First off, is it legal to have a Full Auto carrier if the fire control group (trigger/sear) are still semi?

 

Aside from legalities, any advantages/disadvantages to having a full auto carrier versus a "regular" one?

[bbk 188]

It is legal. What you need an NFA stamp for is the Auto/Burst Fire FCG.

 

The difference between the different types of BCGs is the design and weight. FA (Full auto) vs. M16 vs. SA (Semi auto) differ in design (slightly) and weight. What makes FAs so reliable is that they are heavier, allowing for a more consistent cycling motion (from my understanding)... hopefully leading to less FTF/FTEs.

 

Edit to add: The only downfall is that certain models need some aftermarket work sometimes to fit the models. The only one I'm aware of is one of the Colt models.

[DirtyDigz 1,811]

Thanks. Since this AR is going to end up as piston driven, I'll go for the full auto BCG then.

[Caine 147]

http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/arc ... Letter.pdf

[Guest]

any full auto parts in a semi is frowned upon by atf - they sent a bulletin to all ffl's about 8 years ago with pictures of m16 parts that are verboten in ar's - bolt carrier is one of them -

[DirtyDigz 1,811]

any full auto parts in a semi is frowned upon by atf - they sent a bulletin to all ffl's about 8 years ago with pictures of m16 parts that are verboten in ar's - bolt carrier is one of them -

 

The ATF letter that Caine linked to dated April, 2008, indicates to me that it is not illegal.

[Guest]

the 2008 letter is misleading - possesion is not illegal - BUT as per 26 usc section 5845b of the national firearms act ( quote ) the definition of a machine gun also includes any part or combination of parts from which a machinegun can be assembled - in order to avoid possible violations of the nfa . m16 hammers , triggers , disconnectors , selectors , and BOLT CARRIERS must NOT BE USED in the assembly of ar 15 type semi auto weapons ! - having a ar

semi auto + an m16 type carrier fits the definition of a machinegun as per the nfa -

[bbk 188]

It may be frowned upon, agreed. However, it states that the bolt carrier is not capable of allowing the rifle to fire beyond semi-auto capabilities as long as no other M16 parts are in the rifle itself. It may be toeing the line having an M16/FA bolt? Yes; only because if the individual acquires any other parts it would make their AR full-auto capable. So, like any responsible owner, be accountable and aware of the aftermarket parts you might get that would make the AR machine gun capable, and not get them!

[Guest]

if you play with safety lever while shooting with a full auto bolt carrier the gun can be coaxed to fire multiple shots with one trigger pull - there is a fellow in michigan that is now in the federal pen doing hard time over a situation like this - i'll try + scan the atf letter ( computer illiterate ) + post it later - it has pictures of all auto parts that can not be used in ar semi auto's -

[Pizza Bob 1,488]

Isn't this a moot point if you are converting the impingment system to a piston system? Don't the conversions come with a bolt carrier specific to the conversion? In impingement systems the bolt key is usually a separate piece attached and staked to the carrier. In piston systems the key and carrier are usually monolithic. :?:

 

Adios,

 

Pizza Bob

[Caine 147]

the 2008 letter is misleading - possesion is not illegal - BUT as per 26 usc section 5845b of the national firearms act ( quote ) the definition of a machine gun also includes any part or combination of parts from which a machinegun can be assembled - in order to avoid possible violations of the nfa . m16 hammers , triggers , disconnectors , selectors , and BOLT CARRIERS must NOT BE USED in the assembly of ar 15 type semi auto weapons ! - having a ar

semi auto + an m16 type carrier fits the definition of a machinegun as per the nfa -

 

Saying "solely and exclusively" in one part, and then quickly followed up by "combination" is admittedly confusing.

But, this is the part that stands out for me: "It is not unlawful to utilize a M16 machinegun bolt carrier in a semiautomatic AR15 type rifle." :confusion-shrug:

 

I'm not familiar with the Michigan case you're referring to - do you have a link to it?

[Joelk 61]

if you play with safety lever while shooting with a full auto bolt carrier the gun can be coaxed to fire multiple shots with one trigger pull - there is a fellow in michigan that is now in the federal pen doing hard time over a situation like this - i'll try + scan the atf letter ( computer illiterate ) + post it later - it has pictures of all auto parts that can not be used in ar semi auto's -

No offense, but do you even know the difference between a full auto and a semi carrier? There is absolutely no way a full auto carrier will make a AR with a semi trigger group fire multiple shots with one trigger pull. In the Olafson case you are refering to, the trigger group included full auto trigger parts and a full auto safety, which is where his legal issues arose.

 

Edited to add a pic of some AR BCGs to help anyone not familiar with the difference.

In a gun without a sear or a DIAS the extra material on lower rear of the FA BCG does not even touch anything when it reciprocates

[rscalzo 3]

The only visible difference between the two is that the FA carrier has more mass to it. Most likely to slow the cyclic rate on FA.

 

In a standard upper , it probably has little to no advantage. In a piston operated, it isn't a factor as the bolts are not interchangeable.

 

 

and conpared to the Gas Pistol Bolt Carrier..

 

[Guest]

the longer lip on the lower rear edge of fa carrier can release hammer or sear - ar carrier has no lip to for clearance -

[Joelk 61]

the longer lip on the lower rear edge of fa carrier can release hammer or sear - ar carrier has no lip to for clearance -

 

Even when the BCG is all the way forward, the extended portion of the FA carrier is behind the hammer. The FA carrier does not reach the hammer, and is no where near the sear.

 

In a full auto gun the carrier would trip the auto sear (a semi does not have this part), which is located directly above the safety.

 

Edited to add a picture of an auto sear in a full auto gun (not mine). It is the piece behind the hammer:

[Guest]

the extra weight of the fa m16 type carrier adds inertia to the non restrained full floating firing pin allowing slam fires on bolt closing with sensitive + high primers - the olafson case was in wisconsin , i was referring to a case involving the michigan militia - in the olafson case david cordea post trial comments stated the the olympic arms ar contained no full auto components + was caused be worn defective components - even eugene stoner acknowledged problems with ar design that is why he improved it with the ar18 ar180 design -

[Guest]

[Caine 147]

If I'm reading the scanned document correctly, and based on the pictures, this all goes back to the specific combination of parts. An FA carrier with AR-15 FCG parts seems like it wouldn't cause a problem.

 

Also, considering that the letter is from Stephen Higgins, who, after some googling, was the director in the early 90s, I would say the G&R Tactical letter from 2008 trumps this letter.

 

Good discussion tho.. i'm learning a lot about AR lower internals

[bbk 188]

If I'm reading the scanned document correctly, and based on the pictures, this all goes back to the specific combination of parts. An FA carrier with AR-15 FCG parts seems like it wouldn't cause a problem.

 

Also, considering that the letter is from Stephen Higgins, who, after some googling, was the director in the early 90s, I would say the G&R Tactical letter from 2008 trumps this letter.

 

Good discussion tho.. i'm learning a lot about AR lower internals

True. If you look closely, this document is dated 1986 or so-- so, the most recent BATFE ruling would supercede this. However, its good knowledge, and I'm glad to have seen this letter.

[Caine 147]

If you look closely, this document is dated 1986 or so

Good eyes - didnt catch that till you mentioned it

[Guest]

note - atf letters are only opinions not validated till they are contested in a court of law - the older letter is quoting us code (26 usc section 5845b ) which is law + part of the national firearms act - i know the scan is not that great , but read paragraph #6 - it clearly states that hammers , triggers ,

disconnectors , selectors , + bolt carriers MUST not be used in the assembly of ar15 type semi automatic rifles -

[rscalzo 3]

 

 

A more recent document.

[Joelk 61]

the extra weight of the fa m16 type carrier adds inertia to the non restrained full floating firing pin allowing slam fires on bolt closing with sensitive + high primers

 

By that logic, wouldn't that make heavy, H2, and H3 buffers illegal also as even a H1 buffer adds more reciprocating weight than a FA carrier.

 

Secondly, slam fires can occur in any AR (semi or FA carrier) with high primers.

 

I am not saying go out and buy FA carriers, I can see both sides of the legal picture.

[Tosser 61]

schutzen-jager,

 

Are you serious with this? I think Joel K and the 2005 ATF letter make it clear. A Full Auto BCG is legal in an AR15. New Colt Rifles come with a Full Auto BCG. New Daniel Defense guns come with a Full Auto BCG. I have always run a Full Auto BCG in my semi auto AR15 with no issue ever. I have run thousands of rounds through my rifles. I can't see any way possible for a bolt carrier in itself causing a rifle to become full auto or not. There is more to it mechanically than some more metal at the bottom of the BCG.

[rscalzo 3]

Unless one were to know what they are looking at, they may find FA bolt carriers came standard in some Colt rifles.

[NickySantoro 211]

schutzen-jager,

I can't see any way possible for a bolt carrier in itself causing a rifle to become full auto or not.

 

Tosser has the correct answer. If you compare the FA carrier to the SA carriers you'll notice the extra "meat" on the lower bearing surface of the FA. This is to trip the auto sear of the M16. In the AR, with no auto sear and the requisite associated parts in place, the extra mass of the FA carrier will merely provide more reliable function and not facilitate slam fires. A heavier firing pin might do this, but certainly not the heavier FA carrier.

[Guest]

lot of posts + opinions but back to original post - full auto bolt carriers in semi autos are still in violation of the national firearms act law - batf letters are only the opinions of the writers + are being constantly reversed in court , they do not change the existing enacted laws - yes i know many individuals + manufacturers use full auto components but it does not change the law -

[NickySantoro 211]

Perhaps you could quote the relevant passages and demonstrate how the FA carrier violates the law in any way. I looked it up and can't seem to connect the dots.

[Guest]

see #26 U.S.C. section 5845(b) of the national firearms act as stated in previous posts - spelled out clearly in paragraph 3 + 6 -

[Caine 147]

I think the misleading part is the "any combination of parts" wording. However, in my opinion, the FA carrier does not constitute a "combination" in and of itself.