NJ CCW question for LEOs

[tommy3rd 132]

out of curiosity, are law enforcement officers automatically allowed to carry concealed off duty ANYWHERE in the country or do they still apply for permits like the rest of us common folks?

I wonder if they have to fill out an app every couple of years and their chief signs it or if their Police IDs serve as a license to carry concealed.

[PK90 3,570]

Automatically allowed.

[GRIZ 3,369]

The Law Enforcement Officers Safety Act (LEOSA aka HR218 when it was a bill in the house) allows active and retired LEOs to carry anywhere in the country (including Puerto Rico, Guam, and any place else owned by the U.S. There are not many restrictions. Google LEOSA for details.

 

In their own jurisdictions LEOs carry with statutory authority and don't need carry permits.

[Dewhitewolf 8]

LEOSA (18 USC

[tommy3rd 132]

Thank you for the information. all I can say is "damn, i missed my chance!" LOL

Unless of course there are agencies (in jersey or other states) that will accept LE applications from someone over 35yrs old.

[Guest]

Thank you for the information. all I can say is "damn, i missed my chance!" LOL

Unless of course there are agencies (in jersey or other states) that will accept LE applications from someone over 35yrs old.

 

 

If you are a mature candidate and still in good physical shape, I would not imagine a department taking you on as you would be a more seasoned individual. This would make for good police work as the individual is well adjusted in life. All training aside, you cant teach maturity, and most LEO's who are of age are very good at what they do, sometimes more so than their younger counterparts. Of course, Im not bashing younger cops, most guys are good guys on the job.

So I would not think 35, in great shape, no 'issues' criminal or mental, stable family, mortgage...why not try?

[GRIZ 3,369]

The law only protects the firearm--high capacity magazines or hollow point ammunition are still off limits for off duty officers carrying in other states.

 

That depends on who is interpreting it and as the law is relatively new there have only been a few test cases.

 

If there is no law regarding hollowpoints or magazine capacity in that state, say Pennsylvania, off duty and retired officers can carry any kind of ammo they want in any capacity magazine.

 

If there is a law regarding magazine capacity or hollowpoints, like NJ, that off duty officer may or may not be in violation depending on how a judge interprets LEOSA.

 

Some will contend that LEOSA only covers "the carrying of the firearm" but if you read the entire law it covers a lot of other things.

 

The law says:

 

SEC. 3. EXEMPTION OF QUALIFIED RETIRED LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICERS FROM STATE

LAWS PROHIBITING THE CARRYING OF CONCEALED FIREARMS.

(a) IN GENERAL.

[bbk 188]

LEOs can't forget that Mexico doesn't care! Insert story of the Newark cop from months back.

 

As for getting a LEO job, good luck. Seems like the only Dept around this area that is actively hiring would be NYPD. The only other types of hires I've heard/seen/read about are for prior LEOs who were laid off due to the economy (like my township's PD). A buddy of mine said NJSP has put off hires and Academy indefinitely.

[KpdPipes 388]

Thank you for the information. all I can say is "damn, i missed my chance!" LOL

Unless of course there are agencies (in jersey or other states) that will accept LE applications from someone over 35yrs old.

 

 

If you are a mature candidate and still in good physical shape, I would not imagine a department taking you on as you would be a more seasoned individual. This would make for good police work as the individual is well adjusted in life. All training aside, you cant teach maturity, and most LEO's who are of age are very good at what they do, sometimes more so than their younger counterparts. Of course, Im not bashing younger cops, most guys are good guys on the job.

So I would not think 35, in great shape, no 'issues' criminal or mental, stable family, mortgage...why not try?

 

NJ has an age cap of 35 due to the way the pension system is regulated. Your age can be "Adjusted" up to 5 years if you have Military ot Prior LE time from another state, with 40 being the absolute cut off, since you have to do a minimum of 25 years to qualify for a pension, and mandatory retirement is 65.

 

OTHER States dont have the age restrictions, and you can start a lot older than here.

[KpdPipes 388]

LEOs can't forget that Mexico doesn't care! Insert story of the Newark cop from months back.

 

As for getting a LEO job, good luck. Seems like the only Dept around this area that is actively hiring would be NYPD. The only other types of hires I've heard/seen/read about are for prior LEOs who were laid off due to the economy (like my township's PD). A buddy of mine said NJSP has put off hires and Academy indefinitely.

 

 

Pretty much ANYONE who has used the Alternate Route (Pay your own way) Academy is screwed right now, with the dozens (hundreds before too long) Layoffs of PO's in NJ, all of whom qualify under the "Rice Bill" there wont be any openings for newbies int he forseeable futire. Anyone laid off gets first shot at any job openings anywhere in the state. As for the Newark guy in mexico... We do our best to weed out the morons, but olike with ANY profession, there are always those who slip through the cracks. ANYONE dumb enough to think that US law somehow automatically counts in another country deserves what he gets.

[bbk 188]

I was being facetious about the incident with the Newark cop in Mexico, as its pretty much a no-brainer

 

As for the situation with PDs, it is a shame. I'm not for increasing the size of the police force exponentially, but I am for them keeping their jobs and maintaining enough numbers to provide/support/continue the mission for the communities.

[KpdPipes 388]

I was being facetious about the incident with the Newark cop in Mexico, as its pretty much a no-brainer

 

As for the situation with PDs, it is a shame. I'm not for increasing the size of the police force exponentially, but I am for them keeping their jobs and maintaining enough numbers to provide/support/continue the mission for the communities.

 

 

Let's just say i didnt make any friends on Newark PD when that incident came up in discussion with some of them.... They werent happy that i had about ZERO sympathy for that moron. back about 14-15 years ago we had a new Political Administration and a new Town Administrator for the first time, who decided that it was cheaper not to replace retirees who took advantage of the Buyout that was offered at that time. (of course thay ALSO neglected to put aside the monies they owed the state for participating..but thats another story). We went over the course of 2 years from around 140 officers to 99, with our Paid FD also being reduced by about the same percentage. We cut out all of our special units, cut the detectives, and STILL ran bare minimums per shift, with the attendant drop in response times and cuts in service calls. And of course once those cuts became apparent to the public, and the questioned why it took upwards of an Hour (2-4 during peak hours) to get a Blocked Driveway taken care of, or a noise complaint addressed. We explained we were short staffed, and why, and the towns response was a directive that anyone who told a citizen what the manpower was or blamed a response time on bbeing shorthanded would face discipline for Insubordination. Oh, and during this period the LOWEST mileage car we had was 89,000, every other vehicle was over 100K. All of these layoffs and cuts look GREAT on paper..but when ti comes down to it, it ends up costing more in the long run.

[Dewhitewolf 8]

That depends on who is interpreting it and as the law is relatively new there have only been a few test cases.

 

If there is no law regarding hollowpoints or magazine capacity in that state, say Pennsylvania, off duty and retired officers can carry any kind of ammo they want in any capacity magazine.

 

If there is a law regarding magazine capacity or hollowpoints, like NJ, that off duty officer may or may not be in violation depending on how a judge interprets LEOSA.

 

Some will contend that LEOSA only covers "the carrying of the firearm" but if you read the entire law it covers a lot of other things.

 

There was a test case resulting from an incident in Sturgis, SD. In summary, some off duty LEOs were arrested after a shooting in a bar in Sturgis. The shooting turned out to be justified but the LEOs were also charged with carrying in an establishment that serves alcoholic beverages which is forbidden by SD law. The judge in this case ruled that LEOSA allowed the off duty LEOs to carry in the bar referencing the above paragraph. The judge says the federal law only addresses restrictions on carrying in state and local government property and the government didn't own the bar and dismissed the charge. Now this ruling only affects this case but establishes case law in SD. The only final word would come from a state supreme court or SCOTUS.

 

If you read the above paragraph the only state law addressed in LEOSA is restrictions on government property. There is no mention of hollowpoints or magazine capacity. If it isn't mentioned as forbidden in the law, that usually means it's okay. There is legislation on both state and federal levels addressing these issues and others that have come up regarding LEOSA.

 

Magazines and ammunition are not protected under LEOSA (no, they are not okay simply because the federal law is silent). Possession of high capacity magazines or hollow point ammunition can still be prosecuted if in a state which prohibits them. That is why the smart traveler will carry a ten round magazine and ball ammo if visiting such states. NJ is one of them, when it comes to either retired LEO's or LEO's from other states visiting.

 

It depends more on how the attorneys argue the law, rather than on how the judge interprets it. If a particular issue is not raised at trial, then the court doesn't address it when interpreting the law.

 

The law allows covered persons to carry. It does not extend any protections regarding use of force. If someone qualified under LEOSA were to defend himself, that individual's actions would be subject to the laws of that state.

 

The case you are referring to is South Dakota v. Smith et al(2008). This was a case about unlawful possession in a bar, a state law which was preempted by LEOSA. Four of the defendants were LEO's in Washington state. Issues of self defense were not raised in this case. Any issues of self defense law would have been measured under South Dakota law, not Washington or federal law.

 

I have thoroughly read the statute. I've also read over the test cases, many of which were successfully argued by the same attorney. He hosts a seminar exclusively covering LEOSA (which I attended).

[GRIZ 3,369]

they are not okay simply because the federal law is silent

 

What I said is they are a non-issue with LEOSA. I didn't say they were okay I said they may or may not be in NJ as LEOSA says:

 

Notwithstanding any other provision of the law of any State or any political

subdivision thereof, an individual who is a qualified retired law enforcement officer,,,,

 

Notwithstanding means In spite of, even if, without regard to or impediment by other things. Does this mean hi cap mags and hollowpoints are legal. It may or not mean that.

 

LEOSA goes on to say:

 

[GoNRA 12]

Volunteer Police Officers, Good idea to bring to Christie, I'd be a volunteer PD, just for the Experience. Plus i'd finally get to Carry Concealed

 

Plus being volunteer I wouldn't get picked off by the Affirmative Action Committee.

[tommy3rd 132]

Volunteer Police Officers, Good idea to bring to Christie, I'd be a volunteer PD, just for the Experience. Plus i'd finally get to Carry Concealed .

you may be on to something there... i would volunteer too, even for a few days a month or a couple hours a day.

[KpdPipes 388]

Volunteer Police Officers, Good idea to bring to Christie, I'd be a volunteer PD, just for the Experience. Plus i'd finally get to Carry Concealed

 

Plus being volunteer I wouldn't get picked off by the Affirmative Action Committee.

 

Hate to poop your Party Go, but it doesnt wotk that way. Specials can ONLY carry while they are on duty, in uniform the way the law is written now.

[coldsolderjoint 84]

Volunteer Police Officers, Good idea to bring to Christie, I'd be a volunteer PD, just for the Experience. Plus i'd finally get to Carry Concealed

 

Plus being volunteer I wouldn't get picked off by the Affirmative Action Committee.

 

Hate to poop your Party Go, but it doesnt wotk that way. Specials can ONLY carry while they are on duty, in uniform the way the law is written now.

 

Are the Newark City Specials still allowed to carry off duty while in the city?

[KpdPipes 388]

Volunteer Police Officers, Good idea to bring to Christie, I'd be a volunteer PD, just for the Experience. Plus i'd finally get to Carry Concealed

 

Plus being volunteer I wouldn't get picked off by the Affirmative Action Committee.

 

Hate to poop your Party Go, but it doesnt wotk that way. Specials can ONLY carry while they are on duty, in uniform the way the law is written now.

 

Are the Newark City Specials still allowed to carry off duty while in the city?

 

I wasnt aware that they ever were able to. If I run into one of my NPD friends next time im working i'll check. I Know that OUR Specials when we had them, had departmental-issues weapons that were kept locked in HQ, and issued when they were on duty. Every other departments in my area that had specials used a similar system.

[coldsolderjoint 84]

I don't know what the truth is. Awhile ago (5 years or so?), I was involved in a discussion with a corrections officer, and a Newark city special. The special said that he was pulled over in North Carolina while carrying and he showed the state trooper his CCW/id/badge/something, and the NC trooper said "have a nice day officer". Then after that guy left, the corrections officer said he could have been in deep shit because specials are only allowed to carry while in the city of Newark.

 

It was just a conversation and awhile ago, so both of them could be full of it.

[KpdPipes 388]

I don't know what the truth is. Awhile ago (5 years or so?), I was involved in a discussion with a corrections officer, and a Newark city special. The special said that he was pulled over in North Carolina while carrying and he showed the state trooper his CCW/id/badge/something, and the NC trooper said "have a nice day officer". Then after that guy left, the corrections officer said he could have been in deep **** because specials are only allowed to carry while in the city of Newark.

 

It was just a conversation and awhile ago, so both of them could be full of it.

 

IIRC The Specials in Newark are only authorized to carry on Duty, Just as any other specials. SLEO-2 officers (armed) like the type that work for the shore towns, and are becoming more prevalent in other areas now are not authorized toc arry off-duty, although they MAY (according to some people's interpretations, one which i dont subscribe to) be covered under LEOSA outside of NJ.

[GoNRA 12]

Volunteer "Sworn" Officers - Full Police Powers

[coldsolderjoint 84]

Volunteer "Sworn" Officers - Full Police Powers

 

I thought that only apply when on duty in uniform?

[GoNRA 12]

Volunteer "Sworn" Officers - Full Police Powers

 

I thought that only apply when on duty in uniform?

 

Well off-duty correctional officers have some police powers. They can arrest people and stuff like that.

[KpdPipes 388]

Volunteer "Sworn" Officers - Full Police Powers

 

I thought that only apply when on duty in uniform?

 

Well off-duty correctional officers have some police powers. They can arrest people and stuff like that.

CO's are also full-time employees, and they only thing they cannot do, IIRC is Title 39 (MV Code). is it a ridiculous distinction?? of course..but then again this is NJ.

[Dewhitewolf 8]

It would be possible for volunteer police (and specials, too) to carry under LEOSA. The criteria for LEOSA are authorization to carry a firearm in the course of duty; statutory power of arrest; and the person is an active law enforcement official.

 

The courts have recognized that even unpaid LEO's can fall under LEOSA. The standard the courts have applied is whether the state can control their actions; this satisfies the courts as far as employment.

[KpdPipes 388]

It would be possible for volunteer police (and specials, too) to carry under LEOSA. The criteria for LEOSA are authorization to carry a firearm in the course of duty; statutory power of arrest; and the person is an active law enforcement official.

 

The courts have recognized that even unpaid LEO's can fall under LEOSA. The standard the courts have applied is whether the state can control their actions; this satisfies the courts as far as employment.

 

The point of contention is that in other states, the Arrest powers for specials dont cease when they are off duty as they do here in the People's Republik. Either way it's just one more example of how other states will trust NJ citizens more than their own home.

[Dewhitewolf 8]

Whether a special's power of arrest is limited is irrelevant. The fact that a special has power of arrest at all satisfies the requirement under LEOSA. Corrections officers are also covered IF they have statutory power of arrest on the grounds of the correctional facility.

[bulpup 98]

I would reccomend anyone volunteering in this capacity regardless of carry.

 

I had been an NYPD auxilliary in 2001. On 9/11 I was there helping, not looking outside. I had so many interesting and eye opening experiences and really got a chance to help people.

 

You have to be involved before the s*it hits the fan if you want to make a difference.