Looking at getting an AR caliber questions

[bry@n 195]

Okay so we all know that .556 is standard but since I saw something that the .556 is supposedly not deadly enough, I am thinking about getting the 6.8mm .270 caliber.

 

 

This is available in a hunting version of the AR/M4

 

http://www.bushmaster.com/catalog_xm15_BCWA3F16M468_bg.asp?zoom_highlight=6%2E8mm

 

Any advice/ opinions are welcomed.

[Maksim 1,504]

bryan, you have to consider the bigger issue. Ammo avail.

 

Why not look to get one in perhaps the russian calibers? 5.45?

 

Or... get a remington acr, with quick change barrels. 7.62x39.

[sparny524 0]

I saw something that the .556 is supposedly not deadly enough

 

I hope it would be! that's a tad bigger than a .50 haha *5.56*

[bry@n 195]

Sorry for the mistake but still holds true.

 

I did see however that the 6.8 ammo is like $1 a round. Not sure if reloading is an option.

 

Maks,

I haven't looked to far yet, just beginning the search.

[Maksim 1,504]

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2008 ... announced/

 

and

 

it is out now

 

http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/wcs/ ... rrorView_Y

 

ammo is plenty and cheap.

 

this one is not 7.62x39 though... this uses the ak 74 round.

[Maksim 1,504]

and here you go.

 

http://www.dpmsinc.com/store/?cat=1923

 

dmps in 7.62x39

[lunker 274]

Brian,

 

5.56x45 (.223) ammo is everywhere and cheap. You will have the most selection in your AR uppers with this caliber. You should know that unless you have a rifle chambered specifically for 5.56x45, that you should only shoot .223 out of it. There are slight case size and max pressure differences that make it dangerous to shoot 5.56x45 out of a gun chambered for 223. Shooting 223 out of a gun chambered for 5.56x45 is no problem though.

Less expensive (and available) than 223, is 5.45x39. That is the ammo used by Russia in their AK-74 (which replaced the AK47). If Obama ever decides to put any import restrictions on ammo, you will be shit out of luck. As far as I know, there is no domestic source for 5.45x39. I don't know that many shops carry the ammo, so you will be ordering online or reloading.

7.62x39 ammo is what is used in AK47 (and clones) and the SKS. It is a fun round to shoot, and has some more thump than 223. I like it better in the AK platform than the AR, but that's just because I am partial to AKs and SKS'.

The good thing for you is that AR's are the erector sets for adults. Buy yourself a decent lower and you can attach any compatible upper you like onto it. I have seen 17HMR and 204 Ruger varmint uppers all the way up to 6.5 Grendel and 50 Beowolf.

If it were me, I would start out with a quality lower with a nice trigger. Stock AR triggers are usually crap. The one on my Colt and my Spike tactical certainly were. My recommendation would be Rock River. It has an excellent 2 stage trigger, a nice Ergo grip, and a rounded trigger guard for shooting in the winter with gloves on. If you go with a different company, there are companies that make drop-in triggers that are really nice. You can get any upper you like and mate it to your lower. I was very impressed with the quality of my Rock River Varmint rifle. It was around $950 on GunBroker for a new one.

Here are some links:

Rock River lowers only

http://www.rockriverarms.com/index.cfm? ... ory_id=286

Rock River Uppers

http://www.rockriverarms.com/index.cfm? ... ory_ID=200

Rock River Complete rifles

http://www.rockriverarms.com/index.cfm? ... ory_id=213

 

After that, you have to decide whether you are going for super-tactical black ops mall ninja, or you want something that will put shots in the bullseye at 200 yards at Fort Dix, or something in between. I started out tactical with the Colt Match Target and went to target with the Rock River. One thing to consider also is muzzle break/compensators. You remember how loud Don's AR was at Dix. It is brutal to be anywhere near a compensated rifle unless you are the shooter. I prefer the straight barrel. Coming from my 24" barrel, 223 sounded like a 9mm. I don't think 223 has enough recoil to cause much muzzle rise that you really need something to lessen it.

Anyway, good luck. There are a lot of knowledgeable people here that will hopefully chime in.

[bbk 188]

The stopping power of the 5.56/.223 is fine. As its said, there is no magic bullet that will stop everything in its tracks. Its about shot placement (which is met through practice). A person can fire a hundred shots at a threat, and given the threat doesn't get the point after being shot at a hundred times (which at that point they're not a threat anymore), even if they're only nicked or receive flesh wounds-- of course they will continue to be a threat. So, regardless of what you're using to defend yourself, become proficient in it by practicing things like hitting center mass and failure-to-stop drills ("Mozambique" drill, double tap, etc).

 

I think the bigger question, if this AR is meant for home defense, what type of over penetration are you looking at? I use my AR for home defense myself, so, I'm not saying that its a bad idea. But the individual has to really think it out before relying on a system that can go through multiple sheet rock walls (as well as the threat), possibly friendlies in the next room or next door.

 

But if you're asking strictly about calibers, I'd personally love to see some 6.8SPC

[Ray Ray 3,566]

Brian,

 

If Obama ever decides to put any import restrictions on ammo, you will be **** out of luck. As far as I know, there is no domestic source for 5.45x39. I don't know that many shops carry the ammo, so you will be ordering online or reloading.

 

though it may be a little more expensive than Russian stuff, it's always gonna be here.

 

But if you're asking strictly about calibers, I'd personally love to see some 6.8SPC

 

Which would be choice #2 if you don't want a 5.56 AR.

 

Buy American ammo

[Shane45 807]

Bry@n, you are not in the military on a battlefield. Because of that fact you are not bound by the Geneva convention and the Hague accords. What does this mean to you? It means you can use whatever freeking ammo you want. There is some seriously effective 5.56 available to us civies. So in reallity it is a non issue for us. I do not care for 6.8. To much issue wrapped up with that caliber. SPC, SPC2 chambers, whos on what spec. Which ammo is which spec. Which builders are on SPC2, pressure issues if you mix the two :roll: 7.62X39 is fine in an AK but frankly sucks in an AR. I have no experience with the commie 5.45 but I dont see a lot of motivation to go to that over 5.56.....

[Shane45 807]

"But the individual has to really think it out before relying on a system that can go through multiple sheet rock walls (as well as the threat), possibly friendlies in the next room or next door."

 

This is all about bullet selection. Ball ammo = Issue. Correct ammo = far less penitration than say buckshot.

[GRIZ 3,369]

bryan, you have to consider the bigger issue. Ammo avail.

 

I say get a 5.56 unless there is some specialized use you haven't mentioned. There are several "replacement" calibers floating around, some or all of them will be passing fancies. Ammo for any is expensive compared to 5.56. 5.56 will always be around.

 

5.45 is cheap but you also have to know it is corrosive. Not an issue with a bolt gun but a different animal with a semi auto. It will require good cleaning every time you shoot. As has been said there is no domestic source for this ammo at this time. This is also a consideration for 7.62x39 as all the inexpensive ammo is imported and availability can be questionable.

 

I've used the 5.56 in M16s, M4s and ARs since 1968. It is not a long range knock'em down cartridge. However, I have no reservations using it for approprriate purposes up to 300 meters or so. Do you plan to have to take something out at 500 meters on a regular basis? If not the 5.56 will work fine.

[Guest]

I have a DPMS AR chambered in 308....

while the ammo IS a little pricey..

accuracy... distance... no question in regards to the rounds ability to neutralize a target..

[Shane45 807]

...but would be a bad choice for HD unless you live on a farm. Over penn would be a big issue here. The only exception may, MAY be something ike Hornady TAP in its 110grn loading.

[bry@n 195]

All good points and I have thought about it. In the end, I want the best I can afford and afford to shoot. 5.56 is available and isn't gonna go anywhere anytime soon. While I like the idea of the DPMS .308, I can't shell out 2500 for a gun at the moment.

 

In the end, I believe I will go with a 5.56 and I really don't want to build an AR, I am looking for a complete package so to speak.

 

What options are out there besides Bushmaster and Colt. I have heard bad and good about both but have no real experience.

[njpilot 671]

Look at Stag Bryan. I like my Model 1 a lot. Have put over 1000 rounds through it without a single failure.

 

A few other Stag owners on the forum and all seem to be happy. Prices are fair as well.

[Shane45 807]

As with most everything you get what you pay for.

 

Novesky, LMT, Colt 6920 all good. There is a pretty good chart somewhere on Arfcom illustrating the differences in brands.

[Shane45 807]

Some reading 4 U

 

http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key= ... utput=html

[mipafox 438]

bryan, you have to consider the bigger issue. Ammo avail.

 

Why not look to get one in perhaps the russian calibers? 5.45?

 

Or... get a remington acr, with quick change barrels. 7.62x39.

 

Because he asked for something more deadly, and both of those rounds are less deadly than 5.56.

[Ray Ray 3,566]

Look at Stag Bryan. I like my Model 1 a lot. Have put over 1000 rounds through it without a single failure.

 

A few other Stag owners on the forum and all seem to be happy. Prices are fair as well.

 

I've got a Stag 3L (lefty) and love it. A couple of co-workers of mine bought a Del-Ton and love them too. Another co-worker has a Bushy and can't complain either.

 

Basically, AR's are generally good guns.

[nott 0]

Some reading 4 U

 

http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key= ... utput=html

 

Thanks for that. Great reference.

[GRIZ 3,369]

Some reading 4 U

 

http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key= ... utput=html

 

Those spreadsheets are interesting but you need to ask yourself "do I need a shot peened bolt" or a "M16 style bolt". I said I have been using these rifles since 1968 and most of them M16s or M4s. The civilian rifles I've owned and/or handled the most are DPMS (I own 2) and Bushmaster. I have found no differences in actual performance and durability between them. A friend of mine who has placed in the top 3 several times in service rifle competition swears by a Rock River with a Bushmaster barrel. I don't know anyone who knows more about ARs and M16s than him. He also chnages barrels every 3000 rds as he feels the accuracy drops off for competition use at this life. 99.9% wouldn't see the difference between 3000 or 10000 rds. I am very satisfied with my DPMS. One has a heavy stainless barrel which addresses the corrosion issue as well as a chrome chamber and barrel.

 

An easy suggestion is to get a Colt, you have all the features (although there are others that also have them) and they have made more than anyone else AFAIK.

 

I saw your response regarding a 308 but the best one I've shot is a DPMS. It will shoot groups inside all the competition's (including M14 style rifles) and is as reliable as they come.

[Shane45 807]

GRIZ, the bolt is the one item I in fact would say yes, give me the SP MPI tested bolt every time. I think I have said it before on this forum but the people I really look to are the trainers in high round count classes. They are the ones that have a front row seat to whats holding up and whats not. Usefull info IMO. And as most already know about me, Im in the Buy once Cry once camp, cuts down on the frustration . Id much rather have it and not need it than find myself in the need it and not have it at the worst possible time. Of my own personal experience I have had 3 Rock Rivers, 2 Colts, 1 Bushmaster and 1 build of my own. The only 1 that ever gave me trouble was 1 Colt. With that being said, Im down to 2 AR's. My older Bushmaster and my custom AR10. My Robarm XCR has become my favorite 5.56 rifle.

[GRIZ 3,369]

GRIZ, the bolt is the one item I in fact would say yes, give me the SP MPI tested bolt every time. I think I have said it before on this forum but the people I really look to are the trainers in high round count classes. They are the ones that have a front row seat to whats holding up and whats not.

 

Shane45, I was one of those trainers in high round count classes before I retired. Those I were involved in or have personal knowledge of involved Colts and Rock River. Colt has the features and Rock River doesn't according to the chart. Most of my experience has been with literally hundreds of Colts (maybe more) in the high round count arena and included semi and full auto fire. The only bolt related problem I saw in Colts is rapid wear of the cam pin if it wasn't lubed properly. This is based on at least hundreds of Colts not a small sampling. Everyone is bound to turn out a bad one once in a while. I've seen crappy guns from all the "quality" manufacturers. My personal knowledge of Rock River is the DEA model (the DEA model not the civilian version) which is semi only. It did have to pass a rather grueling test procedure before it was adopted.

 

I respect your opinions and experiences and it's good you found what works for you. There are very few things that are absolutes, including what I say.

[Shane45 807]

Griz, I think we are on the same page. I should have included in my "for what its worth, own experience" that a sampling as small as mine is really irrelivant and actually ment to make the point that you did that you can get a bad one from any of the manufacturers. With that being said you better your odds the higher up tha ladder you go

 

To the OP:

viewtopic.php?f=11&t=8259

[bry@n 195]

Thanks for the link, but it says on the lower .223. I want to go with a 5.56, so I can shoot both.

 

I also saw that the barrel says 5.56, so now I am confused..

 

I read a lot of good stuff regarding the colt 6920. Why not just go with the 6920? Seems like it has a lot of good features according to the chart.

[njpilot 671]

Thanks for the link, but it says on the lower .223. I want to go with a 5.56, so I can shoot both.

 

I also saw that the barrel says 5.56, so now I am confused..

 

I read a lot of good stuff regarding the colt 6920. Why not just go with the 6920? Seems like it has a lot of good features according to the chart.

 

Don't believe the 6920 comes NJ compliant. Would have to have a lot of work done to it.

[Regulator72 80]

Thanks for the link, but it says on the lower .223. I want to go with a 5.56, so I can shoot both.

 

I also saw that the barrel says 5.56, so now I am confused..

 

I read a lot of good stuff regarding the colt 6920. Why not just go with the 6920? Seems like it has a lot of good features according to the chart.

 

Don't believe the 6920 comes NJ compliant. Would have to have a lot of work done to it.

 

I think your right, i looked into it before i ordered the Bushmaster, and i THINK the only one that comes NJ compliant is the 6400 model?? fixed/pinned stock, 9 round mags, and a muzzle break, no suppressor..

 

Bry@n, I think if your a LEO you can get the 6920, so you might wanna look into that, i wouldn't put it past you

[Displaced Texan 11,731]

Correct....the Colt Match Target series of rifles are legal in NJ. If you are looking at an M4 style rifle, the Colt 6400C is the way to go.

Most all the major mfgs make a 'ban compliant model' that is legal in NJ.

 

Good luck with your choice.

 

Jeff

[bbk 188]

So what if it isn't NJ compliant out of the box? Order one, and have the work done here in state or sent to a place like ADCO. Really, the only work that needs to be done by a smith is cut off the bayo lug, and permanently attach a BATFE approved muzzle device. The stock is relatively simple, as it requires some pinning or a swap out (which can be done by the FFL in store). IIRC PK90 does the major smithing work of cutting off the lug and pinning muzzle devices-- so, no need to send everything out of state to be done.

 

As for the 5.56/.223 markings, concern yourself more with the twist rate. 1X9 is common, but 1X7 is mil spec and is made for 5.56.