sometimes honesty is NOT the best policy re: question 26

[intercooler 41]

long story short, I checked questiuon 26 yes because I went to marrige counseling about 6 years ago. I went alone and just spoke to a counseler about some stress I had due to family and work related things. At the time, my wife and I were going to school full time at night, worked full time and were just ripped off by a contractor who tore the house apart and then left. We were ripped off for over $18k.

I checked yes because I felt that being honest was the right thing to do. I expected that they would issue a letter to the counselor and that would be all fine as I only discussed being mad and stressed with the counselor. I went because I have no other "real" person i can talk to, my wife was under the same stress I was and that would make it worse, my parents are not the supportive type, and I simply had no one else to talk to about it. I was going to school nights as a psychology major and felt that it would be beneficial to just talk about it. So they send the letter, like a week later I get the call.

 

I have 3 choices.

1 withdraw the application

2 denial

3 go get an evaluation done.

 

turns out that the counselor wrote a letter that while overall says that he hadn't seen me in 4+ years and could not give an opinion, but also details that I was in jail(i wasn't and have the clean njsp background to prove it),and was expelled form college for fighting(really?, i changed from day to night because I did not like the kids i was in class with always being agressive and stealing from me at lincoln Tech (not college).

He also went on to say that another dr I/he talked with was VERY concerned with my anger (I never saw this dr btw). and said that I saw him for anger counseling(i guess that is an interpretation) and I saw him like 20 times(not according to MY records, more likely 6-8)

Need less to say i am really pissed about this but because I cannot really do anything to the dr, I have no choice but to go have an evaluation done.

 

Now being that I was a psych major i know that any evaluation is really stacked against anyone, based on the fact that everyone has some factor that makes us different than the next guy. The problem with that is I have to see people that by their nature are biased towards finding a problem.(this is frightening to me btw as I know it is true)

 

Again being upfront and honest, i explain why i wanted an evaluation to several Dr's and do some research to find the best "unbiased" pace to go.

Let me tell you, there are VERY few places to go and all are biased, but i have an appointment to get it done shortly. It is gonna cost me $1000+ to "clear" my name and get to spend 6+ hours taking the MMPI(or some variant) the CPI and the EPPS...and likely the rorsach tests, all of which are HEAVILY influenced by the dr's motives in interpretation.

 

I know that there is nothing there to hide or find, I am fine, I always was, I just was stressed and wanted to talk.

 

My piece of advice is simple:

Lie.

unless you were commited or court ordered, they have no way to tell.

If you are stressed out, see a priest.

 

If you go to ANY counseling, marriage, had a dwi (they order AA) speak to any dr about how you feel, you are gonna have to say yes according to my town. Funny that there is a huge amount of police specialist psych's who do counseling on cops because by law, THAT alone would preclude them from having a gun in nj.

I hate this state... :cry:

[Old School 611]

What exactly is question #26?

[intercooler 41]

question 26:

Have you ever been attended, treated or observed by any doctor or psychiatrist or at any hospital or mental

institution on an inpatient or outpatient basis for any mental or psychiatric condition? If yes, give the name and location

of the doctor, psychiatrist, hospital or institution and the date(s) of such occurrence.

Yes

No

 

 

Now obviously, I do not intend to advocate lieing, but it sure is frustrating to have something that is completely innocent overblown on you.

[Old School 611]

question 26:

Have you ever been attended, treated or observed by any doctor or psychiatrist or at any hospital or mental

institution on an inpatient or outpatient basis for any mental or psychiatric condition? If yes, give the name and location

of the doctor, psychiatrist, hospital or institution and the date(s) of such occurrence.

Yes

No

 

 

Now obviously, I do not intend to advocate lieing, but it sure is frustrating to have something that is completely innocent overblown on you.

 

Was your counselor an MD a psychiatrist? Most marriage counselors are not. So if you were not attended by an MD the answer is NO.

 

Anyway "for any mental or psychiatric condition" how is that interpreted?

 

I think you could have truthfully answered NO.

[intercooler 41]

i asked that VERY question...and was told by the lady at the desk (which was then supported by the chief) that ANY doctor...doesn't matter if they are a counselor, family doc, whatever. counts as a definitive yes to this question.

I am pretty confident that when i go for the evaluation, I will be fine...just a grand poorer

More and more evreyday, i see how life is in NJ...

everything is about $

want to drive?

pay me.

want a gun permit?

pay me

have charater and be intelligent to know how to ask for help or advice?

pay me more.

[AtlanticCounty 0]

Take that $1,000 dollars and get a lawyer.

[intercooler 41]

already did that...he is working on it.

either way i would have to get an evaluation at this point...

I am working on a few possible solutions.

it is just frustrating

[Edge 6]

question 26:

Have you ever been attended, treated or observed by any doctor or psychiatrist or at any hospital or mental

institution on an inpatient or outpatient basis for any mental or psychiatric condition? If yes, give the name and location

of the doctor, psychiatrist, hospital or institution and the date(s) of such occurrence.

Yes

No

 

 

Now obviously, I do not intend to advocate lieing, but it sure is frustrating to have something that is completely innocent overblown on you.

 

Sounds like you went for counseling and not because you suffered from a mental or psychiatric condition. Were you "diagnosed" as such.....?? If not you can honestly answer no.

 

PS I think the clerk and the Police are both full of sh!t.......

[intercooler 41]

i agree, but what can i do? they can do whatever they want.

getting the evaluation is alot less $ than getting denied and then appealing with a lawyer (it is absurd to think that i would do it pro se)

[jgofnj 5]

It sounds like you had a therapist or doctor (or what ever he was) that was against guns and really wanted to make you looked bad so you wouldn't get one. The story you described is unbelievable and almost sounds unethical. If money and time were not a factor, I would go after him. I also agree with some of the other postings about why you answered yes. You really didn't read the questions carefully. It doesn't look like you were ever observed at a hospital or mental institution, you just went to see a therapist, so why did you answer Yes. You really screwed yourself for no reason.

[Old School 611]

It sounds like you had a therapist or doctor (or what ever he was) that was against guns and really wanted to make you looked bad so you wouldn't get one. The story you described is unbelievable and almost sounds unethical. If money and time were not a factor, I would go after him. I also agree with some of the other postings about why you answered yes. You really didn't read the questions carefully. It doesn't look like you were ever observed at a hospital or mental institution, you just went to see a therapist, so why did you answer Yes. You really screwed yourself for no reason.

 

 

+1 Anybody that goes to a marriage counselor can't have a gun? No way...

[intercooler 41]

It sounds like you had a therapist or doctor (or what ever he was) that was against guns and really wanted to make you looked bad so you wouldn't get one. The story you described is unbelievable and almost sounds unethical. If money and time were not a factor, I would go after him. I also agree with some of the other postings about why you answered yes. You really didn't read the questions carefully. It doesn't look like you were ever observed at a hospital or mental institution, you just went to see a therapist, so why did you answer Yes. You really screwed yourself for no reason.

 

I think that you are correct, the dr obviously is not very friendly and embellished it heavily(I can prove it too). I read the question VERY carefully and ASKED the people at the police station...THERE is where the problem started. the lady that was there taking the application was in a rush to leave and was adamant that she was right.

If I had the $ to start suing, I would certainly do that...but i don't. The chief agreed that if I get an evaluation at the place I am going, i'd be ok if it checked out (and it will, i really have no doubt provided they have no bias in their interpretation, which is why i have a lawyer who will make sure and have not told them)

Going this route gives me the best value and credibility as the evaluator is VERY large in the field of police psych testing and alot of departments and agencies use them (NJSP included)

If it is all good, they cannot argue as doing so discredits the officers they have hired and employ that have also been assssed at the same place. By denying me at that point, i have no doubt that both a civil rights suit and an FID denial will be in order.

I suspect that it will be ok..i will know that day if I am "approved" by the DR...2 weeks later the report will be available and a week after i should have my decision.

[jgofnj 5]

It looks like you will be OK in the end, I just feel bad you have to shell out another $1,000 bucks. Good luck, hope all goes well. Keep us up to date.

[AtlanticCounty 0]

I think you should sue that Psychologist. He either grossly misrepresented you to the police or got you mixed up with another patient either way he should have to answer for that. Good Luck.

[PK90 3,570]

I vote #2. Make them deny it, then appeal tkhe denial. You will win.

[FFDP82 4]

Another vote for #2. Let them deny you, then take it to court.

 

This is your constitutional right, stop begging for it from bearucrats and shrinks. You're not a psycho, you needed someone to talk to during a hard time in your life. They have no right to do this to you.

[Radek 73]

Another vote for #2. Let them deny you, then take it to court.

 

This is your constitutional right, stop begging for it from bearucrats and shrinks. You're not a psycho, you needed someone to talk to during a hard time in your life. They have no right to do this to you.

 

+1

 

I vote for #2. The chances of them denying even after eval is IMO quite high (state of mind is such a subjective thing), so you are better off not wasting a grand, but use it to take them to court. But, I would think you would still need to go get some type of eval before you go to court, to provide substantiation that you are of sane mind, but at least that's going toward helping you win. If you have friends (not family) that have known you for a long time can vouch for you, that's the ticket to build a case. A teacher who knew you from school is always a +.

 

I wonder if the NRA would help you with a free lawyer and an eval!! They are AWOL from NJ, yet they always want money!

 

Best of luck.

[Springfield1911 22]

Its unfortunate that you are being treated this way. People are looking for any reason to sue a doctor. I can't blame the doc for not signing off on this. I dont believe there are many doctors that would sign their name to anything that involves gun ownership for someone they barely know. Good luck. FTW

[karcirate 1]

I think they purposely make that question misleading.

 

Unless you have a mental condition, it makes no difference if you currently see a shrink 3 times a week, the answer to that question is, and should be, no.

[bulpup 98]

 

 

Now obviously, I do not intend to advocate lieing, but it sure is frustrating to have something that is completely innocent overblown on you.

 

Sounds like you went for counseling and not because you suffered from a mental or psychiatric condition. Were you "diagnosed" as such.....?? If not you can honestly answer no.

 

PS I think the clerk and the Police are both full of sh!t.......

 

Yep. total agreement. Counseling is not the same as being treated for a mental disorder. Being stressed is normal, a "disorder" is not.

[Larain60 1]

I dont believe you answered that question correctly -- should have said no marriage counseling is not a shrink talking you off the ledge.

 

That so called Dr you saw was probably a social worker two separate things.

 

Good luck.

[ChrisJM981 924]

Can you withdraw the application and just change the answer and resubmit it? If your background check comes up clean along with the mental health check can they deny it? Tell them you misread the question. Mark "No" and let them try to prove otherwise.

[jgofnj 5]

I think the last posting is a great idea if it can be done because honestly, you have a long and expensive road ahead of you.

[intercooler 41]

Can you withdraw the application and just change the answer and resubmit it? If your background check comes up clean along with the mental health check can they deny it? Tell them you misread the question. Mark "No" and let them try to prove otherwise.

 

I don't know if that is gonna work.

[BCeagle 12]

If the person was only a conselor, I would probably withdraw and then resubmit in a few months and answer no.

 

ALSO, VERY IMPORTANT

Sue the conselor. They need to be taught a lesson that giving wrong information (saying you went to jail when you werent) has consequences and maybe they wont let a personal feeling get in the way. Most attorneys wont take it because they dont see dollar signs but dont let it go. Also, file a complaint with the state for them providing false information, there may also be some privacy laws violated. PLEASE DO NOT LET THIS GO. Counselors can not use their personal opinions about firearms color their opinions.

[intercooler 41]

If the person was only a conselor, I would probably withdraw and then resubmit in a few months and answer no.

 

ALSO, VERY IMPORTANT

Sue the conselor. They need to be taught a lesson that giving wrong information (saying you went to jail when you werent) has consequences and maybe they wont let a personal feeling get in the way. Most attorneys wont take it because they dont see dollar signs but dont let it go. Also, file a complaint with the state for them providing false information, there may also be some privacy laws violated. PLEASE DO NOT LET THIS GO. Counselors can not use their personal opinions about firearms color their opinions.

 

I appreciate this, but honestly, the way i see it is that the system is geared, stacked and only fair to those people that :

A. Have the $ to fight with

B. Have the credibility (which when asked who a judge beleives more, it would be the guy in the higher social standing,and that would not be me)

C. Are willing to risk everything they have finacially on a "hope" that the anti gun biased system will suddenly see reality.

 

I will do the best I can, but the reality that I cannot match resouces with someone who is likley bringing in 10 times what I make makes it a study in futility. It sucks to admit that, but it is the reality of it and I am a very realistic person.

Worse comes to worse, I will withdraw it...but I know it is the same as a denial anyway I look at it as I am 100% sure they will NOT forget it. :cry:

[FFDP82 4]

"Then the emperor has already won"

[intercooler 41]

"Then the emperor has already won"

pretty much.... but not yet

"these are NOT the droids you are looking for" is the plan

[FFDP82 4]

"Then the emperor has already won"

pretty much.... but not yet

"these are NOT the droids you are looking for" is the plan

 

I think you need to pay a visit to the emperor's appeals court, and confront Darth Vader!

[jgofnj 5]

I sorry, but who are you kidding. Bottom line - you blew it by incorrectly answering the question. It was very clear that your answer was NO. You set yourself up for the death trap. You will most likely never own a gun in NJ. Sorry to say.