School me on AKs

[Radek 73]

I know this is not an AK vs. AR thread, but comparison is needed to put things in perspective.

 

My take:

 

AK47/74: (7.62 or 5.45); in any other caliber, it's just for fun factor, but good 308 or 223 can be had

Pros: piston driven (started with the SKS), loose tolerances (designed that way), reliable, cheap, designed for and battle tested for utility <300 yards, training is optional!

Cons: accuracy, but for man sized targets it does a very good job

 

For a newbie wanting an AK, start with a cheap WASR (goes bang anyway!) and move on up based on budget. Saiga's are the best sporterized AK variant that can be customize to your heart's content! Don't waste money on Arsenal modified Saigas when you can do it yourself for under $100, and you will have fun doing it. My customized Saiga (now an AK clone) is almost complete ...

 

VEPR's and PAP's are nice, but they are not true AK's. A thicker (or milled) receiver is nice, but it's not essential to qualify to be a true AK; doesn't make the gun more accurate than it was designed to begin with. For civilian use (mostly semi-auto), it's a non issue.

 

AR:

Pros: Accurate (when they don't jam), modular design for gadgetry, reliable if maintained well, excellent for civilian use, black gun bragging rights / beauty queen

Cons: not reliable without good maintenance, not piston driven (spend more time cleaning the innards), US and NATO troops use them but they can do better (remember the Vietnam era jamo-matic original M16 without cleaning supplies?), band-aid design from the start, unnatural stock ergo (compare it to a standard bolt action rifle stock), needs tweaks to make it work ... newer developments may redeem the AR lunacy - TBD

 

Despite this, I do own 2 AR's, both piston driven (Adam's) and I like them, but I appreciate those for craftsmanship, less for simple honest enjoyment. I simply enjoy shooting AK's.

 

Bottom line, if you don't try out an AK (or own one), you are missing the bright side and fun! Just because it's a commie gun doesn't mean that's like going to the dark side!

 

Enjoy the sport, either way!

[Shane45 807]

IMHO there is one AK I would own. I simply forgot all about it because...well... we cant have one I was always a fan of the Galil! However, its of keen interest to note that the Isreali's gave up the Galil(arguably the best AK ever made) for the M16/M4. I disagree with some of Radeks reliability assertions but Im not going to pontificate because Im sure everyone knows my stance and why at this point. I will say that I am NOT a fan of piston AR's. I do not own one/will likely never own one. I have had the unique oppurtunity to watch first hand a lot of R&D done for one of the largest and most well known piston AR makers.... no thanks. Let me just say that if you do a search for an interview with John Noveske on the topic, I think just about every point he makes about piston AR's is highly accurate. If I want a piston driven rifle, id buy a piston driven rifle that was designed as such, not a retrofit. I have 2. They are great!

 

The statement from Radek I can truly get behind "Enjoy the sport, either way!"

[FFDP82 4]

I was always a fan of the Galil! However, its of keen interest to note that the Isreali's gave up the Galil(arguably the best AK ever made) for the M16/M4.

 

Political decisions about what firearm(s) a military or police force use are by no means a statement about the quality/utility of a gun by any means. The decision for a military or police force to use a certain gun is usually made by people who do not, or never have, even carried or shot the thing, much less used it in actual combat.

 

The decisions are almost always usually based on political reasons, monetary reasons, in the case of NATO countries; standardization agreements, or usually a combination of all three reasons and then some. The Galil may have been dropped for the M4/16 simply because the Galil does not take STANAG magazines, or maybe Colt could sell them M16 rifles cheaper than IWI, or maybe they wanted to standardize weapons training with the USA, who knows.

[Shane45 807]

Well... in remembering the Galil it made me go look for a little refresher and I came across this that I posted in the VS article. Seems they indeed had a choice and cose the AR over AK, Galil and FAL.......

 

A common debate in the small arms world is the M16 Vs. AK47 issue - which one is the better assault rifle. As probably the only western army in the world that have used both an AK47 variant (IMI Galil) and the M16 on a large scale, the IDF is often mentioned as a real life example.

 

The pro M16 claim is that the IDF usage of the M16 is a clear evidence of the weapon's quality, while the pro AK47 claim that the only reason the IDF switched from IMI Galil to the M16 is since it received them for free from the U.S. The truth is that the M16 is by far the superior weapon. It's lighter, more accurate, more versatile, and with proper maintenance it is very reliable. Indeed, it might be less sand proof then the Galil/AK47 series. However, all you need is to clean it once a day and it will work properly. Since modern armies clean their small arms on a daily basis even during combat deployment this is a non-issue.

 

In fact, most of the myth regarding the M16 unreliability date back to the Vietnam War when the M16 was first issued. The 5.56 mm ammunition used at the time was based on a low quality sticky gunpowder that caused massive buildup of dirt in the M16 mechanism and eventually to jamming problems. When the ammunition was replaced with a proper one, the misfire problems disappeared as well.

One the other hand, the IMI Galil is heavy, inaccurate and it is difficult to attach optics and other accessories to it without special adapters. Many people also don't like the Galil/AK safety mechanism but that's a personnel preference issue. The M16 design, however, is very user friendly and allow numerous modifications to be made such as interchangeability between the different M16 families. The large number of M16 variants used by the IDF for decades of continuous combat deployment is a clear evidence of that.

 

The reason for the IDF usage of the M16 over the Galil isn't the cost. It's the pure quality of the M16 over the Galil. Most of IDF troops dislike the Galil and will prefer a CAR15/M4 over it. Those who are using the cost factor are simply unfamiliar with the IDF assault rifles history. Short review - up until the mid 1970's the IDF standard issue assault rifle was the FN FAL. At that time most of the Israeli elite units were using the AK47, which was considered as better then the FAL. During the Israeli-Arab Yom Kippur War in 1973 the U.S. made a massive airlift to Israel containing large numbers of brand new M16A1 and CAR15. However, shortly after the war ended the IDF had adopted the IMI Galil as its new standard issue assault rifle so most of the M16 remained in storage.

 

The Galil wasn't a big success to say the least. Most of the IDF elite units weren't impressed with the new weapon and remained with the AK47, which also was also useful for deniability in covert deep insertions. In the late 1970's, a few SF units tried out the CAR15 and were tremendously impressed. A decade later, by the late 1980's, almost all elite units were already armed with CAR15, which was gradually replacing the IMI Galil SAR and the AK47. Note that this was years before the IDF had officially adopted the M16 in the early 1990's. The IDF SF units that adopted the CAR15 didn't have any cost issue at mind. They could have used either the M16 or the Galil. It made no matter budget wise, since both weapons were already available in masses. The decision was purely quality based, and no one told the units which weapon to use. More clearly - in some IDF elite units the Galil was simply never used and they always preferred the CAR15 over it. Following the influence of the SF units, in the early 1990's the IDF had officially adopted the M16 family as its new standard issue assault rifle for all infantry oriented units, including both SF and conventional units. Today, the IMI Galil is mainly used by auxiliary and rear line units.

 

Lets again review the situation in the early 1990's. The IDF had large sums of Galil variants it procured over the years, and it also had large sums of M16 it received in the 1973 war as well as via U.S. Army surpluses shipments over the years. Both weapons were available in masses and there wasn't any current or near future need to procure either weapon. The IDF also had thousands of AK47 that were captured over the years. So the IDF could use the AK47 free of charge over M16 or Galil.

Eventually, the IDF chose the M16, so again cost wasn't really an issue. Further more, even if there was such a cost factor, then the IDF could have simply supply all rear line troops with the cheaper M16 and issue the more expensive Galil to the front line troops. The fact that the exact opposite was done speaks for itself. Moreover, some times the cost is less of an issue. The IDF often buy expensive Israeli weapons. For example, the Israeli Police bought the Jericho 941 handguns, while the IDF managed to get the better Sig Sauer 228/226. The Israeli M240 Sufa ("Storm" in Hebrew) jeep is yet another example. The fact that despite the domestic pressure the M16 was chosen over the Galil is yet another evident of its superiority.

 

Let's review the situation today. The IDF no longer receives M16 for free. Instead, Israel receives from the U.S. few billion dollars per year of FMS. However, the catch is that most of this money must be spent in Dollars back in the U.S. The M4 series is indeed cheaper then the Galil or even the new Tavor series. In order to buy gear and weapons using the U.S. FMS the item must be at least 50% made in the U.S. This is why the IMI is currently looking for ways to manufacture the Tavor in the U.S. - so that the IDF could buy the Tavor using FMS.

To summarize, the IDF chose the M16 over the AK47/Gail because the M16 is the better assault rifle in all parameters that matter. As for reliability, the M16 is reliable enough. As for cost it's a non issue. Modern small arms are relatively cheap. In fact, for modern armies who buy large sums, most optical sights cost much more then assault rifles per unit.

http://www.isayeret.com/main/guide.htm

[Pew Pew Plates 358]

...The truth is that the M16 is by far the superior weapon. It's lighter, more accurate, more versatile, and with proper maintenance it is very reliable. Indeed, it might be less sand proof then the Galil/AK47 series. However, all you need is to clean it once a day and it will work properly. Since modern armies clean their small arms on a daily basis even during combat deployment this is a non-issue.

 

How can you be so confident it is superior? A combat arm should need "proper maintenance" and daily cleaning. Sure, if its cleaned every day it should be reliable. But you cant assume it will be cleaned every day. If I had to clean a gun my life depended on every day I'de be pissed off, you cant always do that. And, lighter? Come on! With all those AM/FM decks, toaster ovens, zombie killing lasters and crap hanging off the gun its heavier than an AK. AKs arent that heavy...

[bbk 188]

Like I initially posted, if you guys want to argue about guns, take it to the other thread.

[Ray Ray 3,566]

Like I initially posted, if you guys want to argue about guns, take it to the other thread.

:clap:

[Shane45 807]

I wasnt spilling the argument over into this thread, just presenting evidence to FFDP82 that it seems in this case they did have a choice. I did cross post it in the other thread at the same time. I think Glenn is mistaking me for the author. In retrospect I probably should have only posted it there.

 

I still like the Galil :twisted:

[Guest]

...The truth is that the M16 is by far the superior weapon. It's lighter, more accurate, more versatile, and with proper maintenance it is very reliable. Indeed, it might be less sand proof then the Galil/AK47 series. However, all you need is to clean it once a day and it will work properly. Since modern armies clean their small arms on a daily basis even during combat deployment this is a non-issue.

 

How can you be so confident it is superior? A combat arm should need "proper maintenance" and daily cleaning. Sure, if its cleaned every day it should be reliable. But you cant assume it will be cleaned every day. If I had to clean a gun my life depended on every day I'de be pissed off, you cant always do that. And, lighter? Come on! With all those AM/FM decks, toaster ovens, zombie killing lasters and crap hanging off the gun its heavier than an AK. AKs arent that heavy...

 

 

i have a bunch of shit hanging on the end of my AK (Aimpoint, Magpul AFG, Surefire G2) and it is still totally manageable... it IS slightly heavier than an AR.. but it is NOT problematic in any way..

 

had it at the range yesterday and was messing around just shooting steel silhouettes fast with magazine changes prone and such.. and at 100 yards with cheap steel cased Russian ammo it was HARD to miss.. would have shot further but that was the max distance at that range.. while accuracy IS useful it is NOT like a quality AK is so inaccurate that its useless.. I think that when people label AR series guns as being temperamental and prone to failure it may be based on old technology.. but I think the same can be said for AK series rifles.. to say that a modern Russian AK is similar to a captured Somali rusted pile of scrap wrapped in duct tape, is grossly misrepresenting the firearm.. YES an AR will be more accurate.. but what is the purpose.. what are you using it for? at 100 yards the increased accuracy of the AR is really a moot point.. so at what point DOES it matter? I have no idea because I have not been fortunate enough to shoot it much passed 100... but if you are making 1/2 inch groups at 100 with your AR and I am making 1-2 inch groups at 100 with my AK.. if we are talking man sized targets it just isn't going to matter... additionally I am sending a slightly larger round down range which I prefer..

[bbk 188]

Like I initially posted, if you guys want to argue about guns, take it to the other thread.

[Guest]

as far as your original question I love my Saiga.. it is NJ legal (play the parts game).. incredibly reliable (I don't think I have EVER had a FTF or a FTE)... ammo is reasonably cheap, and powerful.. it can chew threw steel cased ammo.. and is reasonably accurate.. basically you can NOT own something that is marked "AK" so AK47, AK100, AK74, and so on are out.. so you need a Saiga, wasr, etc.. then you have to play the NJ evil features game.. IF you get a Saiga and convert it you also need to adhere to 992 compliance (which is fairly easy).. you can go traditional wood, or modern "tacticool (think AR)" the choices are endless...

[Ray Ray 3,566]

Isn't there a new American company making AK's? And it isn't called an AK. I read about it in a magazine (which I can't find). It isn't marked "AK" anywhere, would that make it NJ legal?

[FFDP82 4]

Isn't there a new American company making AK's? And it isn't called an AK. I read about it in a magazine (which I can't find). It isn't marked "AK" anywhere, would that make it NJ legal?

 

Why would you want an American Made AK? I assure, they won't do it as good, or as cheap, as the commies.

 

You have plenty of options in NJ. Saiga, WASR, PAP, MAK-90, SARs, NHM-91, SLR, the list goes on and on. No need to waste your money on the latest and greatest "US Made" "AK".

 

Just so you know, all non-sporting centerfire rifles must be "US Made." Something is considered "US Made" when it has less than 10 foreign parts in the eyes of 922r. The onky "US Made" guns would be the ones with NoDak-spud receivers, which are 10 foreign parts and a few american ones for compliance. Some of them advertise "US Made" for simple stuff like Yugos or WASRS because technically it is US Made in the eyes of the law (as all our guns are, and must be).

[Guest]

Isn't there a new American company making AK's? And it isn't called an AK. I read about it in a magazine (which I can't find). It isn't marked "AK" anywhere, would that make it NJ legal?

 

 

if and when you have the funds to blow.. if you want a reliable AK get a saiga.. it is not that costly and the build out of it will literally teach you EVERYTHING about it.. inside and out..

[FFDP82 4]

I also want to make note of something, I cannot think of a single commercially available gun in the USA that says "AK" "AK-47" etc. anywhere on it. Literally every "AK" I have ever seen, whether made now or god knows how many years ago, sold in NJ or any other US state.

 

In fact, even most military issued "AKs" do not Say AK on them anywhere Pretty much the only factories that do, or ever did, stamp "AK" on the guns were Russian Military issued machine guns - and those receivers never made it into the USA due to Cold War + Import laws.

[Ray Ray 3,566]

Your right damage world, but I don't want a Saiga. Too much work involved in making it a true AK.

[FFDP82 4]

Your right damage world, but I don't want a Saiga. Too much work involved in making it a true AK.

 

It's really not a lot of work. I have no clue why people think it's such a big deal. People say this every day. The entire "conversion" is nothing but removing two pins, 3 rivets, and then re-assembling the rifle. All you need to do a conversion is a hammer, chisel, and a dremel. It takes about two hours and everything you need to learn is shown in the video below. The end result is a rifle like the one shown below for under $500.

 

It's not hard, watch this video:

http://vimeo.com/2787027

 

Everything you need is sold in one package, right here, for $119

http://store.carolinashooterssupply.com ... ION/Detail

 

[attachment=0]imgp1936.jpg[/attachment]

[lunker 274]

Excellent post. This takes the mystery out of the process. Thanks!

 

Your right damage world, but I don't want a Saiga. Too much work involved in making it a true AK.

 

It's really not a lot of work. I have no clue why people think it's such a big deal. People say this every day. The entire "conversion" is nothing but removing two pins, 3 rivets, and then re-assembling the rifle. All you need to do a conversion is a hammer, chisel, and a dremel. It takes about two hours and everything you need to learn is shown in the video below. The end result is a rifle like the one shown below for under $500.

 

It's not hard, watch this video:

http://vimeo.com/2787027

 

Everything you need is sold in one package, right here, for $119

http://store.carolinashooterssupply.com ... ION/Detail

 

[attachment=0]imgp1936.jpg[/attachment]

[totalabuse 27]

I also want to make note of something, I cannot think of a single commercially available gun in the USA that says "AK" "AK-47" etc. anywhere on it. Literally every "AK" I have ever seen, whether made now or god knows how many years ago, sold in NJ or any other US state.

 

In fact, even most military issued "AKs" do not Say AK on them anywhere Pretty much the only factories that do, or ever did, stamp "AK" on the guns were Russian Military issued machine guns - and those receivers never made it into the USA due to Cold War + Import laws.

 

 

Let's take this one step further. Nowhere in any New jersey firearm law does it state that an arm stamped with AK47, AK74, AKM, AKS, etc is illegal. And to those that keep saying that it is....

PLEASE STOP SPREADING MISINFORMATION.

 

 

FFDP82, my old Clayco was stamped AKS and my Inrange arms are built on Global Trades receivers, both of which are stamped AK74.

[FFDP82 4]

I also want to make note of something, I cannot think of a single commercially available gun in the USA that says "AK" "AK-47" etc. anywhere on it. Literally every "AK" I have ever seen, whether made now or god knows how many years ago, sold in NJ or any other US state.

 

In fact, even most military issued "AKs" do not Say AK on them anywhere Pretty much the only factories that do, or ever did, stamp "AK" on the guns were Russian Military issued machine guns - and those receivers never made it into the USA due to Cold War + Import laws.

 

 

Let's take this one step further. Nowhere in any New jersey firearm law does it state that an arm stamped with AK47, AK74, AKM, AKS, etc is illegal. And to those that keep saying that it is....

PLEASE STOP SPREADING MISINFORMATION.

 

 

FFDP82, my old Clayco was stamped AKS and my Inrange arms are built on Global Trades receivers, both of which are stamped AK74.

 

Interesting, thanks a lot for the info. How old are they?

[totalabuse 27]

The Clayco is a preban arm make in the early 80's, the company would become Norinco. I bought it in 1989.

The inrange arms were built in the early 2k during the Federal AWB. This is them.

[FFDP82 4]

Awesome rifles, definitely a unique set you have. That is an NSPU scope? You're the second guy I've ever seen with one Major cool factor on that one.

[totalabuse 27]

Thank you.

Updated 1pn58, probably built in the late 70's-early 80's. I've handled many of these scopes over the years(including the 1pn34&51). And this example was the best I've ever seen. The fish eye and grain weren't bad at all and I could spot deer @ 100 yards on a starry night clearly. By no means good NV by western standards but for combloc it's awesome.

 

ETA. Here you go, this asshole stole a few of my pictures.

http://www.dragunov.net/1pn58.html

[Radek 73]

Now, that's a black rifle! :clap:

[Shane45 807]

Jack, wasnt there an issue with radiation to the eye on these??? :shock:

[Guest]

Let's take this one step further. Nowhere in any New jersey firearm law does it state that an arm stamped with AK47, AK74, AKM, AKS, etc is illegal. And to those that keep saying that it is....

PLEASE STOP SPREADING MISINFORMATION.

 

 

FFDP82, my old Clayco was stamped AKS and my Inrange arms are built on Global Trades receivers, both of which are stamped AK74.

 

 

you SAY that but you are merely interpreting the law as YOU read it, just as I am..

 

the law SPECIFICALLY says..

 

"Assault firearms" means:

1. The following firearms:

......

Avtomat Kalashnikov type semi-automatic firearms

 

the law SPECIFICALLY name Avtomat Kalashnikov rifles as being a banned type of rifle.. so when i read that it says.. THIS type of rifle is an assault rifle.. and is therefore banned.. wasr.. saiga.. etc.. are called something entirely different.. making them not "Assault firearms" providing they are not substantially identical to an Avtomat Kalashnikov this is merely an interpretation of NJ's vague law... but it DOES name "AK" guns as being banned... in plain black and white..

 

is an AK 101 banned under NJ law?

I would think so the law names "Avtomat Kalashnikov" rifles as being banned... an "AK" is a "Avtomat Kalashnikov" where a Saiga is NOT.. a wasr is NOT...

[FFDP82 4]

Let's not turn this into a thread about legalities.

 

What I'm trying to get across is these are very simple weapons, converting a Saiga is not hard at all, in fact you could probably train a chimpanzee to do it. Every time I get around to linking that video the thread always spirals into all this unnecessary bull. My goal is just to get the misinformation stop with people thinking Saiga conversion is some massive feat that requires engineering skills or something.

 

It's not.

 

It's two pins and 3 rivets.

 

"Just do it"

[lunker 274]

I like the kit Carolina Shooter Supply has. Do they (or anyone else) make a kit with wood furniture? I already have one with plastic.

[FFDP82 4]

I like the kit Carolina Shooter Supply has. Do they (or anyone else) make a kit with wood furniture? I already have one with plastic.

 

No, no kits set up with wood. However, they have TImbersmith US Made wood stock sets in black, brown, or unfinished laminate birch.

 

http://store.carolinashooterssupply.com ... Categories

 

Just buy one of those, as well as the trigger guard, pistol grip nut and screw, retaining plate, Tapco G2 trigger, and you're all set. If you plan on using AK magazines instead of Saiga/Surefire magazines get yourself a bullet guide kit as well.

[Caine 147]

Let's not turn this into a thread about legalities.

While I'm sure we all appreciate the info you've shared on the Saigas and AKs in general, some legal discussion may unfortunately be warranted.

 

There is quite a bit of uncertainty when it comes to AKs in NJ. For example, the FFL I use most often will not touch anything AK related. When I asked him why he said that the NJSP won't give him a letter saying they're legal, so he won't sell them. He'll sell you ARs all day long, but you mention an AK and he gets all huffy.

 

I've also been told by a forum member on here that he once called up a NJ FFL (not the guy I use) about a Saiga he had for sale on gunbroker. When the member told the FFL that he was in NJ, the FFL told him that if he had inquired about it while in his shop he would have had one of his employees keep him busy while he called the cops because "he should know better than to ask about that gun in NJ".

 

So, if the FFLs can't agree on whether or not AKs (and by AK I mean Saiga, WASR, PAP etc.) are good to go in NJ, it's not hard to understand why so many of these threads turn into "is it legal" threads.

 

I'm of the opinion that there are enough of them for sale in NJ by well respected FFLs and in the hands of NJ gun owners, that Saigas and the like are legal, which is why I own one. But I'll be the first to admit that I find the whole "type" wording to be very confusing.