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Newbie - 12 guage or 20 guage for HD?

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OK, one of my good friends from this board got me thinking and now I want a shotgun for Home Defense.

 

I am new to this and currently own a 22 Buckmark pistol. I was going to apply for another PP and get either a 9mm or 45 ACP. But now I want a shotgun as my next gun purchase.

 

I am leaning towards a Mossberg 500. But what are the pros/cons in choosing between a 12-gauge or 20-gauge. As stated before, the sole purpose will be for HD purposes. I am thinking is either will blow away any perpetrator, so why not get the one that is easier to handle in terms of recoil, which would be the 20-gauge.

 

Thoughts?

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At regular HD range, either one will be fine. It depends on what you're comfortable with. Get the one that feels better for you. A gun that you can't handle won't do you any good if (God forbid) you ever need it.

 

The 20 will be a lighter gun, easier to handle, and with slightly lighter perceived recoil.

 

The goal in any HD situation is to stop the threat, and either one will do that with no problems.

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20 Gauge is a good option. I got it so my fiance can come break clays with me. It will be just as effective on a bad guy, with a lot less blast and recoil.

 

http://www.backwoodshome.com/articles2/ayoob120.html

http://www.backwoodshome.com/articles2/ayoob110.html

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The age-old question that spans any types of firearms of all types of calibers ;)

I agree with what Ken has said. Don't let anybody else tell you what is good for you in whatever situation. Assess your needs; whether that's the dimensions of your house (dictate handling of the firearm around the home, through hallways, etc), your physical make up (dictates what you can handle comfortably), and use of the firearm itself (strictly for HD, or clays, etc).

Once you assess those needs, then you can get a better idea of what you're looking for specifically in a shotgun-- and those questions become more pertinent. Which might be, for example, how do chokes work, what are overall lengths, should I go with a pistol grip only shottie, what kind of shot is best for HD, etc.

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Also, keep in mind that a dedicated HD gun may wind up with a bunch of tacticrap hanging off of it, and that will increase the weight somewhat. If you start with a marginally heavy, unwieldy gun and attach a light, optic, laser, Swiss Army knife, coffeemaker, blowup doll, whatever, it's gonna get heavier and more cumbersome.

 

As far as switching to clays, get a different gun for that, unless you're prepared to strip the add-ons off and swap to a longer barrel each time you want to get out and make some orange dust.

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Yeah that's a good explanation, BBK.

 

Personally I wanted a HD Shotgun that I could go to the range and shoot clays with. So I picked up a Mossberg 500 with 18.5" barrel. I also bought a longer 24" barrel that I can put chokes in for range use. 12Ga is a lot easier to hit clays with compared to a 20 gauge.

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Yeah that's a good explanation, BBK.

 

Personally I wanted a HD Shotgun that I could go to the range and shoot clays with. So I picked up a Mossberg 500 with 18.5" barrel. I also bought a longer 24" barrel that I can put chokes in for range use. 12Ga is a lot easier to hit clays with compared to a 20 gauge.

 

 

For informal clay breaking, you shouldnt be able to tell the difference between 12 & 20 in terms of difficulty. I shoot a load equal to 28ga out of my 12 gauges and it actually patterns better than factory 1-1/8oz loads. I have no problem dusting triples with that load. 20 ga would work just fine for clays.

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... 12Ga is a lot easier to hit clays with compared to a 20 gauge.

It ain't the arrow...

Ha, again to note what Ken has said-- regardless of what you choose, train hard if this is going to be a firearm used for HD. Not to be a broken record, but just having a firearm for HD purposes doesn't mean you're proficient with it. And the mentality that pointing a shotgun towards a possible threat and pulling the trigger will automatically equal a non-threat is something I, and many others, do not agree with. I don't know if you live with others (whether its a significant other, children, or both, etc), but for their sake and health-- train hard.

 

Also understand its not just marksmanship, but the mental aspect of the responsibility of owning a firearm used for HD/self-defense purposes. A good read for that would be "On Killing" by LTC (ret.) Grossman, or talking to guys who have been in those types of 'life or die' situations (military, LEO, civilians who were unfortunately in one and survived, etc). To go hand-in-hand with that, since this is an HD gun, understand what your reaction to a possible situation would be... where would you take refuge; how would you access first responder services; if you need to clear a room or two (to escape or get loved ones out of harm's way), then whats that procedure; etc.

 

Its a lot to think about, and while I agree that it is our right as US citizens to own a firearm for whatever purpose we choose (that are legal)-- if you do choose it for HD/SD purposes, I believe strongly that you must take in account the responsibility and apply it. Good luck.

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Ha, again to note what Ken has said-- regardless of what you choose, train hard if this is going to be a firearm used for HD. Not to be a broken record, but just having a firearm for HD purposes doesn't mean you're proficient with it. And the mentality that pointing a shotgun towards a possible threat and pulling the trigger will automatically equal a non-threat is something I, and many others, do not agree with. I don't know if you live with others (whether its a significant other, children, or both, etc), but for their sake and health-- train hard.

 

Also understand its not just marksmanship, but the mental aspect of the responsibility of owning a firearm used for HD/self-defense purposes. A good read for that would be "On Killing" by LTC (ret.) Grossman, or talking to guys who have been in those types of 'life or die' situations (military, LEO, civilians who were unfortunately in one and survived, etc). To go hand-in-hand with that, since this is an HD gun, understand what your reaction to a possible situation would be... where would you take refuge; how would you access first responder services; if you need to clear a room or two (to escape or get loved ones out of harm's way), then whats that procedure; etc.

 

Its a lot to think about, and while I agree that it is our right as US citizens to own a firearm for whatever purpose we choose (that are legal)-- if you do choose it for HD/SD purposes, I believe strongly that you must take in account the responsibility and apply it. Good luck.

 

While I'm focusing my comment on only a small portion of what bbk said, his entire post is worth repeating and re-reading above.

 

That being said, in addition to "On Killing" I would also recommend "On Combat" by the same author - Grossman. Read them both! Their are some crazy instances of what the body and mind are capable of under extreme stress, that anyone owning a firearm as a SD/HD weapon should be aware of. For instance (paraphrasing):

 

"FBI agent was shot and killed after he fired a double-tap at a suspect and then promptly re-holstered. Muscle memory took over during this incident, and the agent did exactly what he trained over and over at the firing range - 2 shots, re-holster, repeat. Even after being hit the suspect managed to return fire and kill the agent."

 

"A cop was shot and killed off duty after he disarmed a suspect during an attempted robbery, and then handed the weapon back to the perp!! When he practiced disarms with his partner and wife, he would hand back the weapon after successfully taking the weapon away. Again muscle memory and training, he was shot and killed only after giving the gun back."

 

So as bbk states, nothing can replace solid training. Just owning a firearm is truly not enough if the lives of you or your loved ones could ever be in jeopardy. It's not all about accuracy and slow fire....

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ALSO the 20 gauge depending on the model can actually HAVE MORE RECOIL than the 12 gauge because it is lighter and smaller it does not disperse the recoil as well as a larger 12 gauge does. So i would go with the 12 gauge all day long dont worry about recoil because if it is used for HD you will hopefully only have to shoot it once and not hundreds of times as if you were trap shooting or at the range, because i doubt you will have a hoard of thugs outside where you will be shooting alot in a HD scenario.

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ALSO the 20 gauge depending on the model can actually HAVE MORE RECOIL than the 12 gauge because it is lighter and smaller it does not disperse the recoil as well as a larger 12 gauge does. So i would go with the 12 gauge all day long dont worry about recoil because if it is used for HD you will hopefully only have to shoot it once and not hundreds of times as if you were trap shooting or at the range, because i doubt you will have a hoard of thugs outside where you will be shooting alot in a HD scenario.

 

My math may be off a little, but I believe that it works out to 75% of the lead for 50% of the recoil with a 20 gauge. That seems like a pretty good bargain. "Felt" recoil is a function of how well the gun absorbs the blast (i.e. recoil pad spreads recoil over more time, recoil has more inertia to overcome with a heavier gun, etc). Assuming the 12 and 20 gauge shotguns are similarly configured (i.e. a Mossy 500 in both calibers), there is a big difference in felt recoil between the two. I am not advocating for a 20 gauge in favor of a 12 gauge. I had a specific reason for buying one (i.e. fiance can handle it better than a 12). I just don't want anyone to think that they would be undergunned with a 20gauge.

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ALSO the 20 gauge depending on the model can actually HAVE MORE RECOIL than the 12 gauge because it is lighter and smaller it does not disperse the recoil as well as a larger 12 gauge does. So i would go with the 12 gauge all day long dont worry about recoil because if it is used for HD you will hopefully only have to shoot it once and not hundreds of times as if you were trap shooting or at the range, because i doubt you will have a hoard of thugs outside where you will be shooting alot in a HD scenario.

Both gauges are up to the task, the 12 ga. being more versatile.

 

As Lunker stated, felt recoil is to be factored in. The area size of the buttstock into your shoulder accounts for how recoil is dispersed and absorbed properly. Skinny combs, improper height of the comb, improperly fitting buttstocks hurt no matter what gauge if they are not designed correctly.

 

Recoil is factored by the weight of the projectile + grain weight of powder + weight of wad or sabot + weight of shot buffering if any (I.E. buckshot), tempered by the muzzle velocity and the weight of the firearm.

 

You can use this interactive calculator to figure out actual recoil in foot pounds for any shotgun. If you handload you will know what all the variables are or you can leave those blank, merely insert the weight of your gun, the projectile weight, and the velocity. There is a significant difference between the 12 ga. and 20 ga.

http://www.10xshooters.com/calculators/ ... ulator.htm

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Not too long ago, I bought a 20ga SuperBantam 500 w/ 24" vent barrel for the wife. It's a nice light weight shotgun. Unfortunately, it's almost too light. It does almost nothing to absorb recoil. It's not a punishing recoil, but the gun feels "snappy" (for lack of a better word). The wife shot it twice and sat back down. Matt's GF shot it once and also sat back down. I personally didn't think it was too bad even with the really short stock, but I'm also 5'11 and pushing 230ish lbs these days. I think the really short stock just made things worse for everyone but since she's 5'3 I thought it was the way to go.

 

I've added a limbsaver to her 500 to give it another inch of LOP, but she hasn't agreed to go back to the range yet to try it out :doh: I see a 20ga 1100 in my future...

 

Anyway, I do not think anyone would be outgunned with a 20ga, and in fact, it is probably an excellent choice in many circumstances, but there seems to be a point of diminishing returns regarding weight vs. LOP vs. "felt recoil".

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Incidently, a 20 ga. slug is certainly more than capable for critters that walk on two legs or four. If the N.J. Div. of Fish & Wildlife have deemed the 20 ga. slug legal to use for the upcoming 2010 bear hunt, it should certainly be adequate for two-legged anything's at "across the room" distance.

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If I had the choice between a 20 gauge and a 9mm pistol, I would still choose the 20 gauge. 12 gauge just gives you move chances to hit somebody ;)

And after all, isn't that what responsible gun ownership is all about? Schmuck.

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I own a 20 gauge Remington 870. My friend owns a 12 gauge Mossberg 500. I've shot both and prefer my 20 gauge. The recoil is noticeably lighter. 00 buck ammo will do the same exact job if used in a home defense scenario. Unless the intruder is suited up with high grade militarized body armor, either gauge would work. :mrgreen:

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If I had the choice between a 20 gauge and a 9mm pistol, I would still choose the 20 gauge. 12 gauge just gives you move chances to hit somebody ;)

 

 

This comment is completely stupid, I was about to delete it, but will use it to make it an example.

 

Just because you have a Yamaha R1, doesnt make you a pro racer.

 

The Israeli elite units use 22 LR's on airplanes and on many other scenarios. The standard issue is 9mm.

 

It is about shot placement, and proper planning and training. Most of all, about avoiding having to use it in the first place.

 

Comments like these, unfortunately give people the wrong reason to do something. The best answer before shouting anything as stupid as "bigger is better", would be to find out about their experience, training, and actually give an educated, qualified answer.

 

Open notice... stupid posts will be deleted. If it becomes a routine, bans are in order. Enough with this sophomoric counter strike shit. This is not a video game, having an FID does not make anyone an expert.

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Lol... what the heck are you talking about? Motorcycles? Race car drivers? Airplanes?

 

Here we go again with shot placement. Damn why do we ALWAYS go back to this??? If you want to talk about shot placement lets start a shot placement thread. Yes we all know if you shoot someone in the little toe they aren't going to die. Yes training whatever, the title of this thread is "12 GAUGE VERSUS 20 GAUGE"... not "12 Gauge to the little toe VS .22LR to the spinal column". Ok, put a freakin .22LR pistol in your house for home defense and lets see how good you are at shooting someone in the spinal cord at 3am moments after you wake up from hearing a window break. Get in your gun fight and see what happens. ORRRRRRRrrrRrRrrrrrr you can grab your shotgun, rack it, and the perp will probably turn tail and take the hell off because they are freakin terrified of shotguns. If not, they got 15 lead balls from a 3" magnum 00 buck round in their face. The concussion alone will probably drop them if you had to shoot. Also if you had to shoot ONE ROUND you have 15 WELL PLACEDDDAFADFADSDDDDDD balls flying versus 1.

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I'm not sure what the problem is with Sloop's reply. I am not a video game junkie and certainly not Mr Tactical (i don't like guns with all kinds of shitt hanging from them). Any gun that makes it easier for the user to disable an attacker is a good home defense gun. As long as the blast of a shotgun is not too much for someone to handle, I think it is superior to a handgun for exactly the reason Sloop mentioned, better chance of hitting target. The intimidation factor is also very high with a shotty, and you might never have to pull the trigger because of it.

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The main problem with this thread..... It should have ended with the post below......

 

But instead..... we got into the age old caliber war/discussion :facepalm:

 

 

At regular HD range, either one will be fine. It depends on what you're comfortable with. Get the one that feels better for you. A gun that you can't handle won't do you any good if (God forbid) you ever need it.

 

The 20 will be a lighter gun, easier to handle, and with slightly lighter perceived recoil.

 

The goal in any HD situation is to stop the threat, and either one will do that with no problems.

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