Malsua 1,422 Posted September 16, 2010 gotcha. thanks for schoolin' me, Jon. Smooth bore 18.5 with no choke can run rifled slugs. You either have rifled slugs or a rifled barrel. Rifled barrel can shoot Sabot slugs. You could probably shoot rifled slugs out of a rifled barrel without the gun blowing up or anything but accuracy will suffer and you'll probably lead up your riflings. You can shoot sabot slugs out of a smooth bore but as the Box-o-truth shows, they are tumbling when they get to the target. At HD ranges it wouldn't matter and it would certainly affect how the slug would normally expand. Perp will still probably be dead. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Krdshrk 3,872 Posted September 16, 2010 http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot46_2.htm Sabot slugs through a smooth bore barrel at 50 yards = 9" group. Through a rifled barrel = 2" Group. However, at HD distances, you'll be accurate enough. The article also had them firing rifled slugs through a rifled barrel. It didn't leave any noticeable lead. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shane45 807 Posted September 16, 2010 I'll stick with my 870. I don't live in the woods so I'm not engaging threats at 100 yards. More like 100 inches. And at room distances nothing, NOTHING beats a pump. Ray, perhaps I am being to dismissive. I would like to hear why "at room distance NOTHING beats a pump.". What is your basis for this statement? Shane Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ray Ray 3,566 Posted September 16, 2010 Ray, perhaps I am being to dismissive. I would like to hear why "at room distance NOTHING beats a pump.". What is your basis for this statement? Shane The fact that if I had to pull the trigger 9 32 caliber 85 grain balls moving at 1200FPS hitting you would do a lot more damage than 1 55 grain 22 caliber hollow point moving at 3200FPS. Simple math. Close quarters battle, not open terrain distance shots. Simple, reliable, proven, pump (or semi if your hearts desire) shotgun for home defense. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
EchoMirage 137 Posted September 16, 2010 rifled slugs through rifled barrels have been used far longer then sabot. there is NO extra leading or damage, and accuracy is much, much better then a smoothbore. the grooves of the barrel will simply grab the rifled edge of the slug, and spin it like a normal bullet through a rifled barrel. they will not counteract each other, will not damage anything, and will increase accuracy. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shane45 807 Posted September 16, 2010 If simple math is your guide, then I would be well served pulling the scope off my SRS and slapping irons on it. Its shorter than your shotty and from a math perspective..... its no contest. Or perhaps a double barrel 10 Guage, wouldnt that be better? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
EchoMirage 137 Posted September 16, 2010 yah, I wasn't really thinking about slugs for HD really... more for our favorite (albeit virtual) hunting sport - ZOMBIES!!! just more options to have, you know... if youre just hitting paper, it doesnt matter what you use. get whatever is cheapest and easily available. rem slugger is usually the cheapest, and can be found anywhere. ranges will be close enough that groupings wont be an issue. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shane45 807 Posted September 16, 2010 :thsmiley_deadhorse: There are other weights than 55grn. Id give up the 400 ft lbs of energy advantage of the shotty for 1 shot to have an additional 10,000 ft lbs of energy on tap over the shotty's 0 ◦Ammo Caliber: 223 Remington/5.56 NATO ◦Bullet Weight: 75 Grains ◦Ammo Muzzle Velocity: 2790 FPS ◦Ammo Muzzle Energy: 1296 FT LBS ◦Bullet Type: Boat Tail Hollow Point Match ◦Ballistic Coefficient: .395 ◦Sectional Density: .214 Shotty 6 rounds X 1700Ft Lbs = 10,200 -1 = 8500 ft lbs remaining Rifle 15 Rounds X 1296 Ft Lbs = 19,440 -1 = 18,144 Ft lbs remaining Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shane45 807 Posted September 16, 2010 For fun comparison. SRS 6 rounds X 5224Ft Lbs = 31,344. So Ray, using your math Criteria, A rifle wins Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ray Ray 3,566 Posted September 17, 2010 For fun comparison. SRS 6 rounds X 5224Ft Lbs = 31,344. So Ray, using your math Criteria, A rifle wins and which firearm is the most popular home defense gun? yeah, that's right. A shotgun! Hmmmmm, I wonder why? Maybe it's because it's simple, reliable, and a proven fight stopper. Now, if I got in a fight with a hoard of badgers, geese, rabbits, and feral cats then yeah, I'm bustin out the stag. But I'll hang on to my boom stick! Shane, this is why I love the forum. A real debate with both sides having facts on top of opinions. I still love ya dude! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Pew Pew Plates 358 Posted September 17, 2010 Im on the shotgun side. I doubt you'de have the chance to use all 15 rounds. And if you did, theres a BIG PROBLEM. I'de rather have a one shot stop then a questionable 10 rounds in the guy lol Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bbk 188 Posted September 17, 2010 I don't trust my shotgun, even if it shot nuclear-tyrannosaurus-rainbow farts ammunition. I don't trust myself with my pistol, yet. But I do trust myself with my rifle, so it works for me. Back to OP though, consider your surroundings. If you believe the possible over penetration of 00 buckshot would be an issue, then look at other shot alternatives. I do believe that 00 is the standard though-- and go from there. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shane45 807 Posted September 17, 2010 Im actually comfortable with all of the above from a proficiency standpoint. I just like painting Ray into a corner logically speaking Its my new hobby . Ray, I think that might have more to do with gross sales and a former American culture of hunting.... Glenn, I only remember pulling the trigger once, I dont know how the other 14 got there! BBK, well send the shotty boys in first when the zombies attack. It will make it easier for use because they will be full and slower Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Pew Pew Plates 358 Posted September 17, 2010 When the zombies come I'll have my SAR-2 out. You know, the rifle that will be working while your fixing your AR :ph34r: Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shane45 807 Posted September 17, 2010 (edited) I dont usually like to post gore but... some need an idea of 5.56 effectiveness. A Mexican ploice op. Both sides armed with 5.56. Most were semi's I believe. The Police AAR I have of that Cartel battle is even worse but AK's were used also and I dont know which were which... WARNING GRAPGIC CONTENT OF 5.56 WOUNDING!!! http://lh3.ggpht.com/_vJcKa90vLkg/S2RTVcBdVjI/AAAAAAAAHyA/NSZDq4Rjx4A/s1024/image004.jpg http://lh4.ggpht.com/_vJcKa90vLkg/S2RTVauO_3I/AAAAAAAAHx8/cDeP3ZxNjlc/s1024/image003.jpg http://lh4.ggpht.com/_vJcKa90vLkg/S2RThChDhHI/AAAAAAAAHyM/lXpQplH5K8k/s1024/image007.jpg http://lh6.ggpht.com/_vJcKa90vLkg/S2RTg_KWWCI/AAAAAAAAHyI/JkspbO3VNfU/s1024/image006.jpg http://lh4.ggpht.com/_vJcKa90vLkg/S2RTV8oUYmI/AAAAAAAAHyE/jUXoC6tsQ4Q/s1024/image005.jpg Edited September 17, 2010 by 67gtonut Changed photos to links - just a little too brutal Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Old School 611 Posted September 17, 2010 http://frontsight.com/newsletter/html/37-what-not-to-do.html This is somewhat related, a 911 call about a HD shooting all may find interesting. What not to do! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ray Ray 3,566 Posted September 17, 2010 Why is it when we were talking about HD you bring up zombies or drug cartels? Now, If I had those two issues at hand, then yeah I'm bustin out the AR. But the shotty is strictly for HD and CQB. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TommyRuss 6 Posted September 17, 2010 I like Federal 00 with the flight control wad. +1 on the Federal 00 w/ flitecontrol wad. Patterns very well out of my Mossy 590A1. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TommyRuss 6 Posted September 17, 2010 Hello all, Just ordered my first shotgun. A Mossberg 590 SP Military, 9 shot 20 inch barrel. This is my first shotgun and I am looking for HD ammo suggestions. It's 12 gauge 2 3/4 or 3 inch shells. I know this is probably like Chevy vs. ford, but I am looking for some ideas. Thanks in advance. Forgot to mention...PICS OR IT DIDN'T HAPPEN!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shane45 807 Posted September 17, 2010 Oh I see Ray, the bullet acts different if its not a Drug Cartel Member. I'm coining the fraze Ray Ray Logic. Funny you never answered any of the questions...... Here they are again: If simple math is your guide, then I would be well served pulling the scope off my SRS and slapping irons on it. Its shorter than your shotty and from a math perspective..... its no contest. Or perhaps a double barrel 10 Guage, wouldnt that be better? (SRS, DB10Gage or your pump). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Caine 147 Posted September 17, 2010 Or perhaps a double barrel 10 Guage, wouldnt that be better? (than your pump). 10 gauge double doesn't sound bad to me... Vigo Mortinsen (sp?) from that movie Appaloosa looked cool carrying one around Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GRIZ 3,365 Posted September 17, 2010 Birdshot vs. Buckshot is an eternal debate. No one is going to shrug off a chest full or birdshot... but, it won't put someone down the way buck will. It's definitely something to think about. Your pattern from a cylinder bore barrel (no choke) is about an inch per yard. Slugs can work but you have a good deal of penetration. Birdshot can work but remember it lacks penetration. Hit a refridgerator, steel door, or something else hard and the shot will ricochet. Buckshot is a better comprimise in my book. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ray Ray 3,566 Posted September 17, 2010 Oh I see Ray, the bullet acts different if its not a Drug Cartel Member. I'm coining the fraze Ray Ray Logic. Funny you never answered any of the questions...... Here they are again: If simple math is your guide, then I would be well served pulling the scope off my SRS and slapping irons on it. Its shorter than your shotty and from a math perspective..... its no contest. Or perhaps a double barrel 10 Guage, wouldnt that be better? (SRS, DB10Gage or your pump). I'll try this again: 9 32 caliber 85 grain pellets traveling at 1200 fps cannot be beat! Yeah, you can run a 10 gauge, but your limited to 2 shots. You can run an SRS (whatever that is) but you might have to deal with FTF or FTE's. If I fire 3 shots, then there's 27- 32 caliber 85 grain balls traveling at 1200 fps hitting a man in the chest. Good bye threat (or threats).I can do that pretty fast (ask Pete) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shane45 807 Posted September 17, 2010 Ray, Im painting you in a corner on your own arguments. You said it cant be beat, now your pointing out shortcomings to a double barrel, MUCH like Im pointing out to you shorcomings of a pump. Your arguments are starting to back pedal. Am I to understand a shotgun cant FTF or FTE? Someone better tell the guy at the last 3 gun who's 870 was a jam o matic all damn day! If your going to use 3 shots then Im going to point out that a double tap or hammer from an AR exceeds the energy of a single shot of buckshot from a shotgun. Yes it would suck that you only have 2 shots but you can shoot both at the same time unleashing holy hell. Your statements that at close quarters your pump cant be beat because of the power. I have given you examples of greater power. How is the pump still better using your own criteria? Why am I bothering? Because I want to drive it home to you that there is no best! Your statements in absolutes are what I usually take from someone as a lack of understanding of the subject material or a closed mind. If your mind is closed, theres no debate or discussion. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bbk 188 Posted September 17, 2010 I think we can all agree that both a shotgun and rifle can stop the threat in a home defense situation if need be. As kenw always points out, and I along with others agree with, its not the 'arrow' that matters in the end. I just feel like a lot of these HD ammo questions (regardless of the type of firearms in question) all melt into the same topics of discussion-- and wouldn't it just be better if we stayed on point here? The topic being specifically about which shotgun ammunition is better? I think there is merit for a ballistics thread in application of home defense rounds and the possible collateral-- but if we're going to generalize the discussion, let's put that in the 'Ammunition and Reloading' thread (and I think we should start a thread to centralize the discussion as there is/has been A LOT of good info across a number of threads already). As for this thread, even if we discuss ballistics (which is a totally legitimate aspect), lets keep it relevant to shotguns. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Dragonfly 0 Posted September 18, 2010 My weapon of choice - Taurus Judge, 3 rounds of Winchester .410 Personal Defense and 2 rounds of 45 LC Hornady 225gr Flex Tip Expanding ammo. That allows me to have a free hand to dial the phone or fend off the intruder. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shane45 807 Posted September 18, 2010 The two links I posted earlier in this thread are relevant to a product called polyshock. Suposedly it deals with some of the issues surrounding shotguns and I have heard it is effective. What I dont know is if it is mil/le only. www.polyshok.com I also want to appologise. In looking back through this thread, my point was made long ago. Regards, Shane Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ray Ray 3,566 Posted September 18, 2010 I also want to appologise. In looking back through this thread, my point was made long ago. Me too. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
vjf915 456 Posted September 18, 2010 Regarding the debate you guys are having......what matters most is the users ability to manipulate the weapon. Forget FTF's, FTE's, muzzle velocity, all that crap. A .22 in the hands of a person trained in marksmanship/self defense will be much more deadly than an AA-12 in the hands of my girlfriend's mom. Bottom line, what YOU should use for home defense is what YOU are the most proficient with. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shane45 807 Posted September 18, 2010 Hmmmmm I would say my proficiency is in this order, Pistol, Rifle, Shotgun. I took 1st place at this 3 gun match. 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites