9mm +P+ and 357 Sig

[Old School 611]

You folks know my handgun preferences. I standardize on 9mm GLOCKS in my household for target and work guns.

Now, as you know I own other handguns but my go to stuff are 9mm GLOCKs.

 

I've felt a little under gunned lately and am going with Buffalo Bore +P+ in 124gr 9mm.as a defense round.

 

Comparing it to 357 Sig it looks pretty close or to be read as adaquate.

 

You guys think I'm "jerking myself"? Kicking up un calber would be a major strategy/logistics change for me.

 

Here's some stats:

 

BUFFALO BORE

 

9mm Luger +P+ Pistol and Handgun Ammo - (+P+) 115 gr. Jacketed Hollow Point (1,400 fps/M.E. 500 ft.lbs.) - 20 Round Box

 

1. Item 24A/20 (+p+) 115gr. Jacketed Hollow Point

 

Browning Hi Power MK111, 4.6 inch barrel---------1426 fps

Beretta 92F, 4.9 inch barrel-----------------------------1402 fps

Glock 19, 4.0 inch barrel--------------------------------1389 fps

 

2. Item 24B/20 (+p+) 124gr. Jacketed Hollow Point

 

Browning Hi Power MK111, 4.6 inch barrel------------1330 fps

Beretta 92F, 4.9 inch barrel-------------------------------1304 fps

Glock 19, 4 inch barrel------------------------------------1296 fps

 

3. Item 24C/20 (+p+) 147gr. Jacketed Hollow Point

 

Browning Hi Power MK111, 4.6 inch barrel----------1179 fps

Beretta 92F, 4.9 inch barrel------------------------------1131 fps

Glock 19, 4.0 inch barrel---------------------------------1165 fps

 

 

FEDERAL CARTRIDGE CO Premium Handgun Cartridges

Federal 357 Sig 125 Grain Jacketed Hollow Point

 

SPECIFICATIONS:

Mfg Item Num: P357S1

Category: AMMO CENTERFIRE

Caliber :357 SIG

Bullet Type :Jacketed Hollow Point

Bullet Weight :125 GR

Muzzle Energy :505 ft lbs

Muzzle Velocity :1350 fps

Rounds/box :50 Rounds Per Box, 20 Boxes Per Case

[GRIZ 3,369]

I'm not a fan of +P or +P+ moreso in semi-autos. I will use +P in K frame or larger revolvers or +P+ in 357 guns. Semi-autos are designed to work in specific pressure ranges. Guns will take the excess pressure from +P or +P+ for some time but my attitude is that if you feel you need 357 SIG velocities...get a 357 SIG.

[Shane45 807]

Ive often contended in the caliber wars that a same diameter, make, weight, vel projectile does not care if it was driven from a 357 sig chamber or a 9mm chamber.... it will perform the same. With that being said, those are some mighty big rimfires you got there!

[lunker 274]

Frank,

 

Join the dark side and get a Glock in 10mm. That is one of the only guns ever designed for the full power of the round, as it was tested using NORMA loads. As this slightly modified graph will attest, it's the bomb.

[Old School 611]

I'm not a fan of +P or +P+ moreso in semi-autos. I will use +P in K frame or larger revolvers or +P+ in 357 guns. Semi-autos are designed to work in specific pressure ranges. Guns will take the excess pressure from +P or +P+ for some time but my attitude is that if you feel you need 357 SIG velocities...get a 357 SIG.

 

It's not that I have any firearm integrity issues. The pistols I'm shooting are all rated +P+ as per the manufacturer.

Secondly, thes guns will not be subject to a steady diet of this stuff. Sight-in, fuction tests and ammo rotation is when these guns

will see the high pressure stuff. I think you're missing the point that a claiber change for me is a major change for me.

 

BTW I have seen "K" frame Smiths split the barrel extention where it extends through the frame from a steady diet of 357's.

I guess thet's why we have "L" frames.

 

Thanks for your input.

[Old School 611]

Frank,

 

Join the dark side and get a Glock in 10mm. That is one of the only guns ever designed for the full power of the round, as it was tested using NORMA loads. As this slightly modified graph will attest, it's the bomb.

 

 

Chris- You're killing me...

[Wolfy 51]

I am a fan of the 357 sig. Chris I did not know 10MM rounds eplode on impact.

 

You coming to SS tonight?

[Pizza Bob 1,488]

Frank:

 

I'm at a loss as to how a manufacturer can certify their guns for +P+ loadings, for the simple reason there are no SAAMI specs for +P+. There could be thousands of PSI difference between two rounds and both be called +P+. HK does the same thing, but they have a catch 22 in their authorization of use in that they say "that we know of" - there may be a lot of +P+ out there, with a lot of pressure variance, that they have no inkling of but they've left themselves some liability wiggle room. I imagine that Glock is similar, or specifies a specific SKU of +P+ from a specific manufacturer.

 

+P+ loadings were originally (maybe still are) LE exclusives. The ammo manufacturer and the LE entity got the blessing from the firearm manufacturer for a specific loading in a specific firearm. When you buy +P+ on the open market you have no idea of what you're getting.

 

If you feel the need to drive a 9mm that fast, step-up a caliber. What you are doing is equivalent to a blivet - that's ten pounds of $hit in a five pound bag. (No reflection on Glock - just seemed like a good analogy. LOL)

 

That rant being said, I realize that +P+ loadings are becoming more standardized - at least among the major ammo manufacturers, but I still would never use it in any of my guns - too many calibers out there to make the risk worthwhile.

 

JMHO / YMMV

 

Adios,

 

Pizza Bob

[lunker 274]

I am a fan of the 357 sig. Chris I did not know 10MM rounds eplode on impact.

 

You coming to SS tonight?

 

As for the 10mm, its Gelatin signature looks like a thermonuclear explosion.

I will be there tonight.

 

I like 357Sig too. Despite all the heavy-and-slow/light-and-fast caliber wars on the internet, the most successfully documented one shot person stopping pistol round is still the 125 grain 357 magnum load. The 357Sig round duplicates those ballistics very well. It can't match the utility of the 357magnum revolver when it comes to heavier loads, but that was never its intended purpose.

[Wolfy 51]

As for the 10mm, its Gelatin signature looks like a thermonuclear explosion.

I will be there tonight.

 

I like 357Sig too. Despite all the heavy-and-slow/light-and-fast caliber wars on the internet, the most successfully documented one shot person stopping pistol round is still the 125 grain 357 magnum load. The 357Sig round duplicates those ballistics very well. It can't match the utility of the 357magnum revolver when it comes to heavier loads, but that was never its intended purpose.

 

 

Chris that is an accurate assesment of the 357 sig.

[Maksim 1,504]

Blah. What is this talk about +p+ or 10mm or 357 Sig. We all know the true caliber for self dense is 45 gap. Lol.

[Shane45 807]

Old school, in all honesty, my REAL recomendation would be to consider why you feel undergunned! With good quality ammo I would NOT feel undergunned with reguler 9mm ammo. I KNOW you know this but I'll say it anyway, shot placement is MANY MANY magnatudes more important that caliber. So buy more 9 and practice your hammers!!!!

[Old School 611]

Blah. What is this talk about +p+ or 10mm or 357 Sig. We all know the true caliber for self dense is 45 gap. Lol.

 

True Maks as long as it lasts!!!

[Maksim 1,504]

Its ok... I just supported the Glock Economy and the Glock caliber.

[Old School 611]

Frank:

 

I'm at a loss as to how a manufacturer can certify their guns for +P+ loadings, for the simple reason there are no SAAMI specs for +P+. There could be thousands of PSI difference between two rounds and both be called +P+. HK does the same thing, but they have a catch 22 in their authorization of use in that they say "that we know of" - there may be a lot of +P+ out there, with a lot of pressure variance, that they have no inkling of but they've left themselves some liability wiggle room. I imagine that Glock is similar, or specifies a specific SKU of +P+ from a specific manufacturer.

 

+P+ loadings were originally (maybe still are) LE exclusives. The ammo manufacturer and the LE entity got the blessing from the firearm manufacturer for a specific loading in a specific firearm. When you buy +P+ on the open market you have no idea of what you're getting.

 

If you feel the need to drive a 9mm that fast, step-up a caliber. What you are doing is equivalent to a blivet - that's ten pounds of $hit in a five pound bag. (No reflection on Glock - just seemed like a good analogy. LOL)

 

That rant being said, I realize that +P+ loadings are becoming more standardized - at least among the major ammo manufacturers, but I still would never use it in any of my guns - too many calibers out there to make the risk worthwhile.

 

JMHO / YMMV

 

Adios,

 

Pizza Bob

 

As usual in total agreement with you Bob. How can they approve use of ammo of an unknown pressure. But GLOCK NEVER condons the use of reloads. LMAO

 

The armorer trainer is the one that told me about the approval of +P+. I asked about Israeli "black tip" and he said Ok to that too.

 

So as my resolve I'll be pushing +P+ in limited use.

[Wolfy 51]

Maks will never surrender the 45 GAP now that he reloads it.

[Maksim 1,504]

Bob, only thing is... many people do drive 9mm that fast... USPSA, the hottest thing in Open class is 9mm major. 8+ grains of powder behind a 124 gr jhp. I would say it depends on if the gun is made for it.

 

The only one I would fairly comfortable to shoot 9mm +p+ out of would be the Hk, considering it was designed for slightly heavier and hotter loads. But outside of competitive shooters, if you feel you need more knockdown power, step up a caliber. Besides, we all know that velocity doesn't necessary mean knockdown power. End of the day, it comes down to shot placement.

[Malsua 1,422]

Chris that is an accurate assesment of the 357 sig.

 

+2

 

If you're really that concerned about it, just get a .357 magnum and be done with it.

 

That said, 124gr 9mm in +p is the sweet spot for 9mm self defense ammo.

[Old School 611]

Bob, only thing is... many people do drive 9mm that fast... USPSA, the hottest thing in Open class is 9mm major. 8+ grains of powder behind a 124 gr jhp. I would say it depends on if the gun is made for it.

 

The only one I would fairly comfortable to shoot 9mm +p+ out of would be the Hk, considering it was designed for slightly heavier and hotter loads. But outside of competitive shooters, if you feel you need more knockdown power, step up a caliber. Besides, we all know that velocity doesn't necessary mean knockdown power. End of the day, it comes down to shot placement.

 

 

AMEN!!

[Shane45 807]

Maks, dont confuse game guns and defencive guns. Most things done in the name of IPSC have no place at the table of real world defence.

[Maksim 1,504]

Maks, dont confuse game guns and defencive guns. Most things done in the name of IPSC have no place at the table of real world defence.

 

 

Obviously shane. =) No one should have to get a competition gun just to safely fire an insanely hot 9mm load. =)

[tommy3rd 132]

In real world defense dont you account for number of rounds, stopping power, shot placement (and sometimes concealabilty) combined?

Besides the concealabilty, I see no problem comparing a game gun and a defensive gun.

[Shane45 807]

Well... what it is really is that no one dies if a frame cracks in comp right. You go to your backup gun and march on. But in comp the ONLY thing they care about is making power factor and making the comp work efficiently. Back in the 90's when the Dillon 9X25 was populer and the power factor floor was much higher, the 9mm lead was flying....FAST! But if course none of this payed any attention to bullet type and ballistic performance in tissue. Like I said earlier in the thread, I wouldnt feel undergunned and would spend my money on practice ammo to insure shot placement probability. But I think Old schools train of though (and a reasonable one) is that you could get away with it once in a while. What I dont know is if the +p+ would make a 9 whippy and hurt split times. Id rather have a fast follow up than fractionally better performance.

[Shane45 807]

Tommy, there can be tons of issues depending on the game and the gun. Now for me, they are one in the same. But I shoot a fixed sight, dead reliable, plain jane Govt Model. For reasons I could carry on for pages, I would never carry an accurailed 1911, a double stack 1911 or an optic'd 1911 for carry. I will not have ambi's on a carry 1911, but you damn near have to on a gaming 1911. I would never have a 2 pound trigger on a carry gun. Generally speaking gaming guns are for games, working guns are for work. Consider for a second the significant difference in recoil of a plate gun shooting low power 9 vs a GM shooting 230 grain ball.

 

The only comparison that makes any sense is pistol comps that use working guns. Then you need to considere the game and make a decision if the game is possibly leading you to habits that would get you killed on the street, but thats another thread

[Krdshrk 3,877]

That's why I'm shooting in the Production division. Not getting a separate gun for race/competition. I'm using my defense gun and getting more practice with it.

[Shane45 807]

Production IPSC? I dont want to derail this thread further than I have but let me just say I did not start doing well in IDPA until I got the game out of my head! One of my worst problems was cover! What you do in training is what you will do in real life under stress. I will not shoot IPSC for those very reasons. That is NOT to say IDPA is without fault or issue.

[Krdshrk 3,877]

Production IPSC? I dont want to derail this thread further than I have but let me just say I did not start doing well in IDPA until I got the game out of my head! One of my worst problems was cover! What you do in training is what you will do in real life under stress. I will not shoot IPSC for those very reasons. That is NOT to say IDPA is without fault or issue.

Yeah Production USPSA. Don't mean to derail the thread either. It's not much stress shooting for me as quick target acquisition and firing/recovering and being able to move and shoot. It's better than standing in one place and firing at a paper target.

[Shane45 807]

Im gonna drag you to an IDPA match!

[Old School 611]

Old school, in all honesty, my REAL recomendation would be to consider why you feel undergunned! With good quality ammo I would NOT feel undergunned with reguler 9mm ammo. I KNOW you know this but I'll say it anyway, shot placement is MANY MANY magnatudes more important that caliber. So buy more 9 and practice your hammers!!!!

 

Agreed Shane. Loaded 15K rounds of 9mm last year and shoot on an average of once a week so I subscribe to shot placement under stress. Just always looking for an edge as you understand. I used to keep a Government for a go to gun but Kim is more comfortable with a 9mm and GLOCKS they are, as she shoots one in comp and let's just keep stuff all the same. So, the "9" is a means of defending my family when I may not be there.

 

The majority of the military throughout the world shoot 9mm so how wrong can I be?

[DevsAdvocate 112]

I'm not a fan of +P or +P+ moreso in semi-autos. I will use +P in K frame or larger revolvers or +P+ in 357 guns. Semi-autos are designed to work in specific pressure ranges. Guns will take the excess pressure from +P or +P+ for some time but my attitude is that if you feel you need 357 SIG velocities...get a 357 SIG.

 

I read somewhere that modern 9mm ammunition is actually weaker than the original 9mm parabellum used by the Germans, and that +P more accurately reflects what was used in Lugers and such. Glocks are rated for +P, and should have no issue eating +P+... but +P should be good enough from a performance perspective... I mean: how far away are you shooting at someone? And you still have the benefit of multiple rounds to shoot.