*NEW* Jeff Van Drew CCW bill

[Cemeterys Gun Blob 165]

Van Drew's CCW reform bill has been reintroduced.

 

Yearly Fee is only $100 now.

 

Requirement of firearms training, and a class in *use of force*. Don't see anything about medical evaluation.

2431_I1-1.PDF

[MrP 81]

When you wish upon a star...

[tommy3rd 132]

Again, that "justifiable need" line is still there. The price is better though.

[Shane45 807]

WTF. The justifiable need language is in there!!!!

[Wildbob 14]

Too many things not spelled out and left to the superintendent's discretion.

[PK90 3,570]

Interesting.

 

A-n-A Qualifications will be scheduled when the Bill becomes law.

[karcirate 1]

WTF. The justifiable need language is in there!!!!

 

No it isn't. It's in brackets, which means it is to be removed from the original statute.

 

What I don't like is that is still allows the judge to limit, at his discretion, the location and times you can use the permit. Though if you put down "Self Defense" as your reason, I don't see what limits anyone could reasonably put on it.

[Cemeterys Gun Blob 165]

No it isn't. It's in brackets, which means it is to be removed from the original statute.

 

What I don't like is that is still allows the judge to limit, at his discretion, the location and times you can use the permit. Though if you put down "Self Defense" as your reason, I don't see what limits anyone could reasonably put on it.

 

 

Only if and when NJ recognized self defense, both in general, and as reason for firearms ownership.

[karcirate 1]

Only if and when NJ recognized self defense, both in general, and as reason for firearms ownership.

 

If this bill passes, then that automatically becomes a valid reason, not that you would still need a reason.

[tbtrout 141]

Someone must be up for re election.

[bry@n 195]

Not sure how I feel about this. Seems to be just on the heels of the lawsuit and it's like throwing scraps to us.

[Krdshrk 3,877]

$100 is a lot better than $500! I'd go for it!

[Shane45 807]

Oh I see. Thanks for the correction.

[bry@n 195]

No it isn't. It's in brackets, which means it is to be removed from the original statute.

 

What I don't like is that is still allows the judge to limit, at his discretion, the location and times you can use the permit. Though if you put down "Self Defense" as your reason, I don't see what limits anyone could reasonably put on it.

 

and I believe the type of handgun also. Or did I read that wrong.

[karcirate 1]

and I believe the type of handgun also. Or did I read that wrong.

 

You read it right:

 

"The court may at its discretion issue a limited-type permit which would restrict the applicant as to the types of handguns he may carry and where and for what purposes such handguns may be carried."

[Ray Ray 3,566]

$100 is a lot better than $500! I'd go for it!

 

Me too, but unless bacon grows wings or Vanessa Minillo falls in love with me, this ain't happenin.

[tommy3rd 132]

Here's an interesting question...if we have to qualify, would it be the same qualifications as a police officer or armed security?

Do we need to hit a target at 15 or 25 yards? unless the bad guy is shooting you from that far away, I don't think it's self defense anymore. most encounters are probably less than 10 feet away from you.

[tbtrout 141]

Not sure how I feel about this. Seems to be just on the heels of the lawsuit and it's like throwing scraps to us.

Agreed.

[Ray Ray 3,566]

Here's an interesting question...if we have to qualify, would it be the same qualifications as a police officer or armed security?

Do we need to hit a target at 15 or 25 yards? unless the bad guy is shooting you from that far away, I don't think it's self defense anymore. most encounters are probably less than 10 feet away from you.

 

Not that it really matters, but you can qualify. If those clowns that come to the Bullet Hole can qualify, then anyone can.

[tommy3rd 132]

Not that it really matters, but you can qualify. If those clowns that come to the Bullet Hole can qualify, then anyone can.

I know i can qualify. I'm more interested in little old mom, who wants to get a pistol permit now and possibly a CCW if it ever passes.

[Maksim 1,504]

This bill was expected and not a surprise.... has little to do with the SAF lawsuit and more that his first bill was not adored.

[EchoMirage 137]

still way more money then other states. florida is 117 for SEVEN years. im not against taking a 'qualifying course', as long as they dont make it a loophole in their favor, ie: you have to be a sniper to actually 'qualify'. you take a driving test before you get your license, and i will lay a years pay that more people have, do, and will die in car accidents from negligence or ineptness of a driver then ever will from a CCW gun.

[Freedom-First 2]

Using a gun for self defense is one thing and it is natural - but what about our ability or rights to use lethal force to stop a crime that is being committed against someone else? What if we saw an unarmed person being held at gun point, or a shooter in a public place? Issues like this are critical and need to be encompassed in any legislation that is considered. Typical NJ politics would be to allow CCW but then make it all but illegal to use the right.

[bmanrkg3 3]

Hm, I'll see if the assemblyman is ever in his office... I'm curious to if he'll be able to answer or adjust to these questions.(As they are quite legitimate.)

[ChrisJM981 924]

Using a gun for self defense is one thing and it is natural - but what about our ability or rights to use lethal force to stop a crime that is being committed against someone else? What if we saw an unarmed person being held at gun point, or a shooter in a public place? Issues like this are critical and need to be encompassed in any legislation that is considered. Typical NJ politics would be to allow CCW but then make it all but illegal to use the right.

 

I'd probably need immunity from civil action on behalf of the perforated perpetrator before I agreed to protect anyone other than family/friends in public.

[vjf915 456]

Honestly, I don't know how I feel about this bill. I still really see this as waving the almighty dollar in the face of politicians to try and get them to bite. This is supposedly a Constitutional right, even though we have been denied for so long........but why the hell should I pay more than the administrative fee to exercise this right?

 

Using a gun for self defense is one thing and it is natural - but what about our ability or rights to use lethal force to stop a crime that is being committed against someone else? What if we saw an unarmed person being held at gun point, or a shooter in a public place? Issues like this are critical and need to be encompassed in any legislation that is considered. Typical NJ politics would be to allow CCW but then make it all but illegal to use the right.

If you TRULY want to be a hero when you see an unarmed civilian being held at gunpoint.....then just make yourself known in the area. You cannot defend someone else, but if you tell this armed robber to leave the innocent civilian alone, and he then in some way threatens your safety.....that's when you can use your CCW superpowers to stop him.

[Bob B 103]

I don't see the bi-annual psych eval anymore. That's the most important change. Although I don't like it, I'm not really concerned about the 'limitation" thing, because the only limitation that is currently used by judges is "valid only while on duty" which would no longer apply if you no longer have to have "justifiable need."

 

I still don't like the fact that it's up to LE and judges. That's inherently problematic, but is being challenged by SAF in their current law suit.

I don't like the semi-annual qualification. That's overly burdensome, but can be challenged.

I don't like the one year renewal, but that could probably be changed over the next few years.

The $50 of the $100 that goes to the General Fund could be challenged, because it's not associated with providing the services necessary to verify the applicant's qualifications.

...and we still need Castle Doctrine/Stand Your Ground (S555) for us to be protected with criminal and civil immunity.

 

It's an improvement, but still not there yet. I would like to see a line in there that the AG is free to make reciprocity agreements with other states. If we were to ever get a 2A friendly AG, NJ's permitting scheme could instantly become moot with non-resident reciprocity with a state like FL (this is the case in DE).

 

Christie said "never in a million years" but he didn't say when that million years started. Maybe it started a million years ago.B)

[KpdPipes 388]

here is the Link to the Qualification Course for Law enforcement as per the NJ Attorney general's guidelines (it's an 85-page PDF, so im not going to try and replicate it here) The standard Daytime Course is 60 rounds from 25 yards down to Contact (Weapon Retention) range. I would Assume that the standard for CCW would be Similar to, or the same as the Retired officers course

 

Semi-Annual Firearms Qualification and Requalification Standards

9-45 Revised (5/03)

Appendix C

Handgun Night Qualification Course (HNQC)

1. Familiarization Requirements for Each Participant.

a. Demonstrate the safe handling of the weapon.

b. Demonstrate proper loading and unloading techniques.

c. Demonstrate the techniques of proper physical stance.

d. Demonstrate the techniques of good marksmanship.

2. Range - 15 yards.

3. Target - FBI type Q target, either paper or cardboard. Multiple targets may be

used at the discretion of the agency of the agency (sic) executive or supervising

firearms instructor.

4. Course.

a. Total of 40 rounds per participant.

b. Double action is required for revolvers for all phases. Semi-automatics

are to be fired in the manner in which the individual weapon functions

normally and are to be decocked when changing positions or hands.

c. Reloading may take place at the discretion of the supervising firearms

instructor. Additionally, discretion may be used as to the number of

rounds with which the magazines are loaded to accomplish reloading

exercises during the course. Similarly, the sequence of rounds fired at a

given distance may be altered to accommodate a reloading exercise.

d. To achieve a passing score of 80%, the participant must place a minimum

of 32 shots within the border of the Q-target silhouette.

e. Night firing conditions may be artificially created. However, if light

dimming goggles are used, handheld light must still be deployed were

directed.

f. Some ambient light may be provided

Semi-Annual Firearms Qualification and Requalification Standards

9-46 Revised (5/03)

Phase I 15-Yard Line. 6 rounds.

20 seconds each command

Standing to kneeling.

• On command utilizing a handheld or gun mounted light, from a

secured holster position, draw and fire 1 round from a standing

point shoulder position, assume a kneeling position and fire 2

rounds.

• Decock, holster and assume a standing ready position.

• Repeat once

Phase II 10-Yard Line. 6 rounds. (Instills shooting then moving from firing

point)

5 seconds each command

Standing Point shoulder position.

• On command, draw and assume a ready position.

• On command utilizing a handheld or gun mounted light, fire 2

rounds, turn light off and step to the right.

• Decock and reassume a ready position.

• On command fire 2 rounds (on the same target) utilizing a handheld

or gun mount light, turn light off and step back to the left.

• Decock and reassume a ready position.

• On command fire 2 rounds (on the same target) utilizing a handheld

or gun mount light, turn light off and step to the right.

• Reload if necessary, decock, holster and step back to the left to the

original shooting position.

Phase III 7-Yard Line. 4 rounds.

6 seconds each command

Point shoulder position.

• On command, draw and come to a ready position.

Semi-Annual Firearms Qualification and Requalification Standards

9-47 Revised (5/03)

• On command utilizing a handheld or gun mounted light, fire 2

rounds from a point shoulder position.

• Decock and remain at the ready position

• Repeat once

Phase IV 7-Yard Line. 4 rounds.

20 seconds

Point shoulder position. Mandatory reload

• From a ready position.

• On command utilizing a handheld or gun mounted light, fire 2

rounds, reload and fire 2 rounds

• Decock and holster.

Phase V 5-Yard Line. 6 rounds.

5 seconds each command

One-handed, strong hand

• On command utilizing a handheld or gun mounted light (support

hand with light may NOT in any way support the firing hand), draw

and fire 2 rounds with the strong hand only.

• Decock and holster

• Repeat twice

• Reload if required and holster an uncocked weapon.

• Secure handheld lights, no lights are used at the next position

Phase VI 5-Yard Line. 6 rounds.

5 seconds each command

One-handed, support hand

NO LIGHTS (simulate the strong hand is disabled)

• On command, draw, assume a ready position. Pass the firearm

over to the support hand and leave the strong arm limp at the side.

Semi-Annual Firearms Qualification and Requalification Standards

9-48 Revised (5/03)

(Simulating disabling injury)

• Assume a ready position with the firearms in the support hand only.

• On command fire 2 rounds

• Decock and reassume a ready position

• Repeat twice

• Reload if necessary, decock and holster an uncocked weapon.

Phase VII 3 Yard line. 4 rounds

3 seconds each command

Standing Point Shoulder

• Standing, holding a handheld light in a manner the participant

would while conducting a motor vehicle stop or field interview and

inspecting credentials (i.e. light held over the shoulder or tucked

under the armpit).

• On command draw and fire 2 rounds.

• Decock and holster

• Repeat once

• Secure handheld lights, no lights are used at the next position.

Phase VIII 1-Yard Line (or as close to a 1-yard line as safety dictates).

NO LIGHTS

3 seconds each command

Weapon retention position. (Begin with the support hand across

the chest with the hand grasping the collar of the shooter’s shirt or

body armor.)

Each drill, 2 rounds. (Total 4 rounds).

• On command, from the interview stance position, draw and fire 2

rounds from a weapon retention position.

• Decock and holster.

• Repeat once.

Semi-Annual Firearms Qualification and Requalification Standards

9-49 Revised (5/03)

• Clear all weapons. Holster a safe, empty weapon.

---END OF COURSE---

Note: Participants using 5-shot weapons will fire a total of 36 rounds following the

course of fire on page 77 for low light qualification (5-Shot HNQC).

Retired officers will qualify in low light using the Handgun Night Qualification Course

HNQC for Retired Law Enforcement Officers page 78.

[Malsua 1,422]

There are still way too many qualifications in the new bill. Semi-annual qualification needs to go.

 

This below statement would turn into the new "Justifiable need"

The court may at its discretion issue a limited-type permit which would restrict the applicant as to the types of handguns he may carry and where and for what purposes such handguns may be carried.

 

Judge: "We've approved your license to carry, you will be restricted to carrying only in your town between the hours of 11pm and 6am. We've reviewed the firearms you wish to carry and have determined that your single shot Crossman air pistol is appropriate and adequate for your needs. See the clerk, have a check ready. *gavel*."

[Wildbob 14]

Freedom First raises a good point. I'll take it to the next step.

 

You are legally carrying and out in a public establishment when someone pulls a gun and announces a holdup. You spring into action and draw your weapon. The police come and see two people inside with drawn weapons. What happens next? We will need extensive training above those qualifying standards if acting any way other than self defense.