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71ragtopgoat

Fire dept and ammo

34 posts in this topic

I recently had the Local FD to the house for an electrical problem. (no fire thank goodness) but the problem was near where I keep my ammo. Do I by law have to tell them about my ammo supply ?? I grabbed one guy on the side and did and he said not to worry about it. I know morally you should but do you have to by law ???

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I don't see the issue with warning them.. I don't know that you "have to".. but correct me if I am wrong.. but isn't the risk relatively low if a round should go off.. I mean.. there is no chamber to contain the gas build up.. and no barrel to build velocity.. again I could be totally wrong.. but I think I remember reading something about how if a round goes off like that it is not really all that dangerous.. YES anything could happen.. but I just mean in general..

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[quote]Isn't it dangerous to collect ammunition? If there is a fire, wouldn't it blow up the neighborhood?
Virtually every household in America contains many common items which are far more dangerous than even a massive ammunition collection. Cans of spray paint or hair spray, a container of gasoline for a lawn mower, or a propane tank for a BBQ grill or even a small propane torch for home improvement use will all "explode" about as easily as ammunition, and cause more damage by providing fuel to a fire.
Tests have shown that ammunition exposed to a fire may eventually be heated to the point that the primer and/or powder will ignite. This will usually result in the cartridge case rupturing, and force the primer from the primer pocket. The powder burns, and does not explode. Since the ammunition is not constrained within the barrel of a gun, the force is dispersed in all directions, and the bullet will do little more than drop out of the case. The primer, any pieces of the ruptured cartridge case, and the bullet will not penetrate anything much stronger than a corrugated cardboard box a few inches away. Military surplus "ammo cans" are excellent and safe methods for storing ammunition. Newspaper accounts of house or business fires where "bullets exploded by the heat went shooting over firefighters' heads" are completely false and based on invalid assumptions and ignorance. However, news people often leap to hysterical conclusions which attract a lot of attention and are seldom corrected (References- Major General Julian S. Hatcher, U.S. Army Ordnance Corps, Hatcher's Notebook, Harrisburg, PA, 1962, pages 531-540. Sporting Arms and Ammunition Manufacturer's Institute video- "Sporting Ammunition and the Firefighter.")
Obviously military artillery ammunition with live explosive projectiles would be dangerous in a fire, but they are subject to strict controls under federal law. Collectors interested in artillery ammunition are limited to items that have no explosive filling. They can still be dangerous. They are heavy and will hurt if you drop one on your foot. They are exactly as dangerous as a rock you might dig out of your garden. [/quote]

http://cartridgecollectors.org/faq.htm

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[quote name='71ragtopgoat' timestamp='1291775560' post='271066']
Nice to know they are not dangerous. But here in the peoples republic of NJ whats the law say ???
[/quote]

the law says if you have enough ammo to worry about it then you are likely some insane militant hording ammo waiting for the chance to overthrow the government..
:icon_mrgreen:


kidding of course.. I am not aware of anything in the normal firearms code requiring you to do anything... but maybe one of the LEOs of the board can confirm..
as crazy as NJ is.. there is some science behind it.. like the article states.. there is really nothing special about it.. and a few cans of carb cleaner would likely be a hell of a lot more dangerous..
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[quote name='71ragtopgoat' timestamp='1291774847' post='271062']
I recently had the Local FD to the house for an electrical problem. (no fire thank goodness) but the problem was near where I keep my ammo. Do I by law have to tell them about my ammo supply ?? I grabbed one guy on the side and did and he said not to worry about it. I know morally you should but do you have to by law ???
[/quote]


you dont have to tell anyone about any ammo that was legally acquired by you and kept in your home. Period.
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[quote name='71ragtopgoat' timestamp='1291774847' post='271062']
I recently had the Local FD to the house for an electrical problem. (no fire thank goodness) but the problem was near where I keep my ammo. Do I by law have to tell them about my ammo supply ?? I grabbed one guy on the side and did and he said not to worry about it. I know morally you should but do you have to by law ???
[/quote]


If you have more than 50 rounds, the media will paint you as a nutjob.

But the easiest thing is to move the ammo out of the area of said problem before anybody's arrival, then you have no moral obligation to say squat.

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[quote name='wsaraceni' timestamp='1291780642' post='271089']
thinking out loud. what if you had a HD gun, with one in the chamber. that one could cause damage no?
[/quote]

I think for reloaders powder is a bigger danger than loaded ammo. The powder burns fast and can use all the oxygen in a room rapidly.

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As a fire marshal and fireman for 30 years, I can tell you from first hand experience that you have nothing to report if you don't want to, but we're going to be pretty pissed off if you don't let us know what in your house if it is on fire. Key word on fire.The FD might not be too crazy about fighting the fire in the interior, but we can't stop you from having ammuniton should you choose to do so. What you do inside your house, unless prohibited by ordinance, is your business.

You might also have a problem explaining to a judge why you didnt tell the fire department about the ammo should someone get hurt in the fire. And yes contrary to popular belief, firemen who get injured in a fire can sue. The article is correct, but I do have to say I have seen some shotgun slugs wizz over my head. But it was nothing compared to a spray paint can. That being said, it is safe to say that smokeless powder goes fizzzit but black powder is a different animal all together. That goes boom!

The International Fire Code 2006 New Jersey Edition is does not apply to owner occupied one and two family dwellings.

The New Jersey Explosives Act is what you would look to,but only if you store powder.
21:1A-133. Permits for manufacture, sale, storage, transportation or use of explosives
A. No permit shall be required for the storage, transportation or use of smokeless powder which is used by private persons for the hand loading of small arms ammunition and which is not for resale. For this purpose not more than 36 lbs. of smokeless powder and not more than 5 pounds of black powder shall be stored or transported without a permit.
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36 lbs? Really? 36 lbs? So 37 lbs and they lop off an arm or something, right? Who makes this crap up... I don't reload but that is a good little bit of info to know. 5 lbs of black powder, that would make for one hell of a show. Still be interested to know what is worse though 5 lbs of black powder or a couple of propane tanks... I remember one of them took an entire freakin' house out up in north Jersey back in the '90s.
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[quote name='BRN169' timestamp='1291809926' post='271124']
36 lbs? Really? 36 lbs? So 37 lbs and they lop off an arm or something, right? Who makes this crap up... I don't reload but that is a good little bit of info to know. 5 lbs of black powder, that would make for one hell of a show. Still be interested to know what is worse though 5 lbs of black powder or a couple of propane tanks... I remember one of them took an entire freakin' house out up in north Jersey back in the '90s.
[/quote]

15 rounds? Really? 15 rounds? So 16 rounds and they throw you in jail or something, right? Who makes this crap up...
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[quote name='71ragtopgoat' timestamp='1291775560' post='271066']
Nice to know they are not dangerous. But here in the peoples republic of NJ whats the law say ???
[/quote]

If the ammo were dangerous then UPS would certaintly charge a hazmat fee to have it shipped to your residence which they don't.

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I'm a fire fighter and was involved with a house fire that had ammunition inside. We didn't know that it was ammunition at the time, thought the popping was either fireworks inside or an electrical transformer. The next day when we were doing mop up on what was left of the house, I found a shell casing that was all mangled underneath one of our firetrucks. So this means that it must present some kind of danger if a bullet in the house could ignite and then send the casing some 200 feet outside and land under a firetruck. Having ammo isn't illegal so homeowners should tell firefighters about it whenever possible. That and keep it inside an ammo can or other storage container and not leave it lying around.

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[quote name='PK90' timestamp='1291821216' post='271162']
I don't think there is a home around me that doesn't have ammo in it.

The fireman should always treat any fire as if.
[/quote]

This. Did you disclose your disposable propane cylinders for camping/soldering? Did you disclose the gallons of gasoline stored for your mowers?
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[quote name='djg0770' timestamp='1291810231' post='271126']
15 rounds? Really? 15 rounds? So 16 rounds and they throw you in jail or something, right? Who makes this crap up...
[/quote]

My point was I could imagine 35 or 40 but 36 is sort of an unusual number... And the same idiocity does apply for the arbitrary magazine limit BTW

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[quote name='J-Hawk' timestamp='1291821045' post='271161']
I'm a fire fighter and was involved with a house fire that had ammunition inside. We didn't know that it was ammunition at the time, thought the popping was either fireworks inside or an electrical transformer. The next day when we were doing mop up on what was left of the house, I found a shell casing that was all mangled underneath one of our firetrucks. So this means that it must present some kind of danger if a bullet in the house could ignite and then send the casing some 200 feet outside and land under a firetruck. Having ammo isn't illegal so homeowners should tell firefighters about it whenever possible. That and keep it inside an ammo can or other storage container and not leave it lying around.
[/quote]


Well, I would suspect it turned its self into a bottle rocket. Its a topic I have reviewed a number of times and always came away with the same answer from experts in the field. Not really an issue, far greater dangers from other things. If I were in that situation, I would absolutely woordinate with the FD on what is where and whats a special concern.

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[quote name='J-Hawk' timestamp='1291821045' post='271161']
I'm a fire fighter and was involved with a house fire that had ammunition inside. We didn't know that it was ammunition at the time, thought the popping was either fireworks inside or an electrical transformer. The next day when we were doing mop up on what was left of the house, I found a shell casing that was all mangled underneath one of our firetrucks. So this means that it must present some kind of danger if a bullet in the house could ignite and then send the casing some 200 feet outside and land under a firetruck. Having ammo isn't illegal so homeowners should tell firefighters about it whenever possible. That and keep it inside an ammo can or other storage container and not leave it lying around.
[/quote]

That casing was probably carried to the truck in the crease of one of the firemans protective gear.
A casing wont go that far it will spin a lot a bounce but the energy is spent very quickly.
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[quote name='PeteF' timestamp='1291823911' post='271174']
That casing was probably carried to the truck in the crease of one of the firemans protective gear.
A casing wont go that far it will spin a lot a bounce but the energy is spent very quickly.
[/quote]


this...

there is simply nothing to concentrate and direct the pressure..

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Food for thought..

You: "Hey FD, I've got x amount of ammo in there."
FD Chief: "Pull it back boys!"

*House suffers more damage than it would have otherwise*

http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2010/03/exploding_ammunition_prolongs.html

http://www.mycentraljersey.com/article/20100322/NEWS/100322043/UPDATE-Firefighters-delayed-by-exploding-ammo-in-Perth-Amboy-house-fire

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[quote name='J-Hawk' timestamp='1291821045' post='271161']
I'm a fire fighter and was involved with a house fire that had ammunition inside. We didn't know that it was ammunition at the time, thought the popping was either fireworks inside or an electrical transformer. The next day when we were doing mop up on what was left of the house, I found a shell casing that was all mangled underneath one of our firetrucks. So this means that it must present some kind of danger if a bullet in the house could ignite and then send the casing some 200 feet outside and land under a firetruck. Having ammo isn't illegal so homeowners should tell firefighters about it whenever possible. That and keep it inside an ammo can or other storage container and not leave it lying around.
[/quote]


Or it was stuck in someones boot and was brought outside.

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[quote name='coldsolderjoint' timestamp='1291837143' post='271249']
Food for thought..

You: "Hey FD, I've got x amount of ammo in there."
FD Chief: "Pull it back boys!"

*House suffers more damage than it would have otherwise*

http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2010/03/exploding_ammunition_prolongs.html

http://www.mycentraljersey.com/article/20100322/NEWS/100322043/UPDATE-Firefighters-delayed-by-exploding-ammo-in-Perth-Amboy-house-fire
[/quote]

Yeah that is unfortunate but you can't fault firefighters for not wanting to go into a building that they hear gunfire going off in.

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Like others have said, I can't see any reason why you should have to disclose that to the fire department, unless maybe you did have a loaded weapon. Otherwise, I can think of MANY other things that pose even more of a threat to their safety.

[quote name='vladtepes' timestamp='1291775759' post='271068']
the law says if you have enough ammo to worry about it then you are likely some insane militant hording ammo waiting for the chance to overthrow the government..
:icon_mrgreen:
[/quote]
We have seen several times before that someone had an "arsenal" because they had some 200 rounds in their house.

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This topic brought up some question for me.
I'm pretty sure most people on this site have at least 1 loaded gun (HD) somewhere in the house.

Since I have a kid, mine is locked away. If it got hot enough to cause the round in the tube to go off,
would one of these quick access "safes" (think MiniVault) do anything to stop the rounds?

Also in a fire would only the 1 in the tube go off or would all in the mag go off?

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[quote name='PeteF' timestamp='1291860601' post='271394']
This topic brought up some question for me.
I'm pretty sure most people on this site have at least 1 loaded gun (HD) somewhere in the house.

Since I have a kid, mine is locked away. If it got hot enough to cause the round in the tube to go off,
would one of these quick access "safes" (think MiniVault) do anything to stop the rounds?

Also in a fire would only the 1 in the tube go off or would all in the mag go off?
[/quote]
If the round went off, it could POTENTIALLY go through a complete cycle and load the next round. In theory, under a crazy set of circumstances, I am sure it is possible. If you are really THAT worried about it, then don't keep the chamber loaded. I don't have a round in the chamber for my HD gun.

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