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SAF v NJ (MULLER et al v. MAENZA et al)

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We're into September. Was there a deadline for the ruling or is it one of those "when I get around to it" type of things this state is great for?

 

It is a waiting game now. Last update was:

 

06/24/2011

Case Reassigned to Magistrate Judge Madeline C. Arleo.

Magistrate Judge C. C. Cecchi no longer assigned to the case. (jl, ) (Entered: 06/24/2011)

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What do you all think the chances are (realistically) that us average NJ citizens will be able to legally carry a concealed firearm? Just wondering. Seems to me like there actually may be a chance.

 

I think our chances of ending up with a "shall issue" permit system (like the majority of the country) are zero.

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I think our chances of ending up with a "shall issue" permit system (like the majority of the country) are zero.

If the decision ultimately comes from a state court, yes. If it comes from the Supreme Court, NJ will throw up roadblocks, but in the end we willhave it.

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This suit is in the Federal courts, under Federal law and the US Constitution. No NJ court has jurisdiction.

 

Correct. What I believe will happen is we will lose in the circuit courts, it will be appealed to the Supreme Court and they'll refuse to hear the case.

 

Trust me, that isn't the outcome I want, but I have a feeling that is how it'll go down.

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Why do you think the supreme court will refuse to hear the appeal?

 

Just a hunch. I get the feeling the Supreme Court likes to give the states wide latitude in these sorts of matters. In theory, we have a "may issue" system, and I think the Circuit Court will see it as "reasonable", especially since one of the original plaintiffs was issued a carry permit. I believe the Supreme Court will not want to interfere with the state in this instance and they'll let the lower court ruling stand. I really hope I'm wrong.

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Just a hunch. I get the feeling the Supreme Court likes to give the states wide latitude in these sorts of matters. In theory, we have a "may issue" system, and I think the Circuit Court will see it as "reasonable", especially since one of the original plaintiffs was issued a carry permit. I believe the Supreme Court will not want to interfere with the state in this instance and they'll let the lower court ruling stand. I really hope I'm wrong.

 

I have to respectfully disagree. When it comes to a fundamental, civil, natural, constitutional right, SCOTUS sits up and takes notice. It may well be that in the end, a NJ case will not go before the high court but one of the carry suits will. The only foundational part of the 2nd Amendment that has not been brought before SCOTUS is the "right to bear arms" and specifically to carry them outside your home. The collective/individual right was decided in Heller, the militia question also in Heller, the reason for weapons was also discussed in Heller and the whole camper/hunter thing knocked down in Heller and the incorporation to the states was decided in McDonald. If you read the recent opinions all the judges have ruled that Heller only applies to carry in one's home. Kind of funny when you think of it, not many strap on a firearm while doing laundry but that's an argument for another time. The lower courts never consider that SCOTUS only ruled on what was before them and in neither case did Gura ask for carry outside one's home. That was his strategy, to dismantle these laws one precept at a time. Now that we have a real 2nd Amendment incorporated to the states and an individual right all that is left is to decide if "to bear" actually means what it says and to define what a non-sensitive place is. In NJ the idiot law makers may deem anywhere in a 500 mile radius from a school a sensitive area but in the end the justifiable need will be struck down once SCOTUS determines that "to bear" is part of the right that no one (including NJ) can infringe on.

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The issue is not dead. The case cert was denied in was a criminal not a civil case. The NJ Fed District Court Judge has not yet decided the issue, which of course, is a predicate to the United States Court of Appeals for the Third Circuit to here it. The Circuit Court decision will control the fate of the plaintiff's in that case, even if the US Supreme Court denies cert, in the NJ case, unless it decides another case in the interim which is inconsistent with the Third Circuit opinion; the NJ Supreme Court does not have to follow the Third Circuit Decision, but it will be persuasive in any subsequent State Appellate Court opinions. The denial of cert by the US Supreme Court carries no weight either way. There are other cases that will raise the issue that will come before the Supreme Court, but it will be up to them if they ever hear it. Eventually, the issue will get decided. Also, a Republican President and Republican Controlled Legislature-(it could happen) would go a long way to getting interstate carry reciprocity. That in and of itself, could cause pressure in NJ for right to carry reform.

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WTF guys. Does nobody understand that probably 90% of members on the site are subscribed to this thread?! That means that 90% of members get an email EVERY SINGLE TIME someone posts in this thread.

 

I propose this. Can we PLEASE lock this thread, and it does NOT get unlocked until someone PM's a mod saying "I have new information regarding the case." It's pinned, so it will stay up top until we need it for IMPORTANT posts.

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Oral arguments for the case scheduled Thursday, October 27, at 9:30 a.m. at the Newark federal courthouse!!! http://www.njd.uscourts.gov/ If anyone wants to attend...please dress appropriately for a federal court, and don’t bring anything “political” (e.g. big buttons, etc.). Please also remember to arrive at least 15 minutes early to allow for time to get through security. The courthouse is located at:

 

Martin Luther King, Jr. Federal Building & U.S. Courthouse

50 Walnut Street

Newark, NJ 07101

Phone : 973-645-3730

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Oral arguments for the case scheduled Thursday, October 27, at 9:30 a.m. at the Newark federal courthouse!!! http://www.njd.uscourts.gov/ If anyone wants to attend...please dress appropriately for a federal court, and don’t bring anything “political” (e.g. big buttons, etc.). Please also remember to arrive at least 15 minutes early to allow for time to get through security. The courthouse is located at:

 

Martin Luther King, Jr. Federal Building & U.S. Courthouse

50 Walnut Street

Newark, NJ 07101

Phone : 973-645-3730

 

I may take off and head over.

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I want to go, but is there any chance I'll get a seat? How many people are expected to show?

We should all hope to go and NOT get a seat. That's what will truly show how much we support our cause, when we overfill the courtrooms with our presence.

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GOOoo!!!! Even if you have to sit on the Judges lap<<< kinder gentler gun community :sarcastichand:

 

Oh god. Trust me, no one would want to see that. It'd be like a fat guy sitting on santa's lap. "And what I really, REALLY want this year is reformed CCW laws that allow the fine citizens of our state to carry. PWEESE SANTA!" :sarcastichand:

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I think it would be a good idea to start sending emails to ranges, friends and post on forums to let ALL gun owners know what is going on and to be there. Also, be prepared that left wing (Marxists/progressives) WILL be there. Our numbers need to be greater and we need to be peaceful. Spread the word....After all this is NJ and the radicals do not want to give up power. Make sure you are prepared with a camera in hand, knowledge of what you stand for and go up in groups. Maybe we should have meeting areas? IE: NJ gun forum members meet out front 50' right of the entrance?

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I think it's great that people want to go, but keep in mind that hearings, particularly in Federal court, are pretty staid proceedings. The one possible benefit of a big turnout might be that any reporters in the courtroom will take notice and it's possible they might interview people afterwards. You will need to likely need check your cell phones and possibly cameras before you go in.

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