SAF v NJ (MULLER et al v. MAENZA et al)

[raz-0 1,259]

I can never see open carry in this state.  Could you imagine a crowded boardwalk in the summer with Snookie-like people open carrying?

 

If this is taken, I could see the court being very surgical in its response to justifiable need.

 

I don't see the state loosening any requirements if they're forced to open the process to regular citizens.

 

I think if it is taken, and even if it is surgically applied, if we don't lose, self-defense will have to be sufficient in terms of need. I don't see it being that surgical, as they are just begging for administrative details to keep coming back,. and they don't want to be hearing those cases. 

 

Some of the worst case outcomes if we win would be declaring open carry legal, but charging everyone who does with disturbing the peace. Which would require another go-round which likely would not be heard. ANoither would be exorbitant fees, or providing a non-discretionary checklist that includes something absurd like having the consent of everyone in your home, your employer, etc., or never having a moving violation. All of which can be shot down, and in other circuits would be, but the 2nd seems to be mentally deficient and rather unconcerned with how their judgments are perceived by their peers. 

[maintenanceguy 510]

If NJ becomes shall issue:

 

Places off limits will be:schools, courthouses, banks, government buildings, any place of assembly, churches, places that serve alcohol, any place with a "no guns" sign.   It will be a felony to carry on any of these places - including within 1000' of school property.   Drive on a highway where a school owns a piece of property and that will be a felony.

 

The applicaiton will cost several hundred dollars, will need to be renewed annually, and you will need to shoot a specific score on a qualifying course fo fire.

 

Carrying on the person will become legal but vehicle transport will still require locked in the trunk and unloaded.

 

Possessing a carry permit will be ruled by the NJ courts to be probably cause for a search.

 

NJ might get carry but it's not going to go easily.

[Vlad G 345]

Thats what everyone said about Illinois too.

[intercooler 41]

Illinois tries all that and the court smacked it down immediately then told them they has x days to come up with a workable plan

[maintenanceguy 510]

But in IL, it was a federal circuit court.  Does SCOTUS get involved after a ruling.  If a state just refuses to follow the ruling, or makes rules to circumvent the intent of the ruling, what happens?

[Vlad G 345]

The federal courts won't really go against explicit supreme court decisions. Look what happened with the federal courts in Illinois and Cali. I'm not saying NJ won't try to be dicks,  I'm saying that IF SCOTUS rules for our side, then NJ will eventually have to comply.

[raz-0 1,259]

But in IL, it was a federal circuit court. Does SCOTUS get involved after a ruling. If a state just refuses to follow the ruling, or makes rules to circumvent the intent of the ruling, what happens?

The appeal process happens again. Back to scotus you go. And they said they don't want that. Our circuit pissed all over their previous rulings on the subject, so why would they listen to this one unless they get pretty explicit about their intent.

 

Which is why I don't expect any ruling to be minimal. I expect there will be some significant clarification on scrutiny if not an explicit test proposed for future determination, as well as spelling out where the line is for who may be prohibited and how.

 

Unless the antis have the majority or the pro judges have to compromise tho get a pro majority. The third circuit was willing to toss the foundation of most civil rights decisions to back the government's right to say no to guns, so who knows how it will break.

[ryan_j 0]

Ignoring a ruling from the Supreme Court has dire consequences. If they disobey the ruling outright, the state can be held in contempt. In fact, people can even go to jail. This is serious business.

[ryan_j 0]

The federal courts won't really go against explicit supreme court decisions. Look what happened with the federal courts in Illinois and Cali. I'm not saying NJ won't try to be dicks,  I'm saying that IF SCOTUS rules for our side, then NJ will eventually have to comply.

 

Eventually? They'll get a deadline when the mandate is issued, OR it will go into effect immediately.

 

In IL they got relief after a delay but only because IL had no carry law, so they were given time to craft one. We have one, and striking justifiable need from it just leaves the rest of the law intact and we can apply (*and be approved) under that system.

[Vlad G 345]

well eventually may be quick or it may be slow.  I'll worry about that later. Step one is the court taking the case. Step two is them ruling in the favor of sanity. Step 17 is figuring out how to navigate NJ silliness, and we'll figure that out when we get to it

[jtd771 18]

I can't wait to see the bills that would come forward if SCOTUS struck down "justifiable need".  You would see things like gun free zones 10,000' around any school, library, government building, park, church, etc.  They'd essentially make the whole state a gun free zone so it can go back to court and reset the timer for 5 years.  Or they would change the rules so that you had to qualify every six months at one location in Cape May but can only go on odd numbered Tuesdays in an even numbered Month where the class can only be 3 people and is 24 hours long or the concealed carrying of guns is allowed as is but they must be unloaded in the holster with a trigger lock on them at all times and the ammunition must be in a separate holder at least 18" from the gun.   The state will not go down easy just watch.

[ryan_j 0]

All of these wouldn't pass muster.

[njpilot 671]

Ignoring a ruling from the Supreme Court has dire consequences. If they disobey the ruling outright, the state can be held in contempt. In fact, people can even go to jail. This is serious business.

Yeah, like Holder would jump on it right away.

 

Biggest problem we have is the most lawless administration a recent history. Can't do anything with corrupt people running the show.

[Vlad G 345]

Nah, it's not Holder, a bench warrant by a federal judge would be the US Marshals I think, and it is my understanding they take their job seriously.

[ryan_j 0]

Absolutely. If the court cannot enforce its mandate, then why should anyone listen to the court? NJ cannot have selective hearing either. If it wants to point to court precedent to uphold things like same sex marriage, it has to also obey the other orders that they do not like. 

 

But let's not get ahead of ourselves. Let the Supreme Court take the case first.

 

If they do and if we get a favorable decision, it is then time to start contacting our legislators. For a new carry bill, Mike Carroll's "citizens protection act" would be a good balance. It brings us in line with other state like VA, FL or AZ. 

 

Also, be sure to support ANJRPC and SAF. SAF is very easy to support through AmazonSmile.

[siderman 1,137]

I can't wait to see the bills that would come forward if SCOTUS struck down "justifiable need".  You would see things like gun free zones 10,000' around any school, library, government building, park, church, etc.  They'd essentially make the whole state a gun free zone so it can go back to court and reset the timer for 5 years.  Or they would change the rules so that you had to qualify every six months at one location in Cape May but can only go on odd numbered Tuesdays in an even numbered Month where the class can only be 3 people and is 24 hours long or the concealed carrying of guns is allowed as is but they must be unloaded in the holster with a trigger lock on them at all times and the ammunition must be in a separate holder at least 18" from the gun.   The state will not go down easy just watch.

The ccw impementation "should " be the easy part, just do what current RLEO are requiered. Not harder, not easier- one class of carry for all citizens. All the rules, regulations already in force. Would just need to  expand on the actuall qualifying classes to accomadate the wave of applicants.

[ryan_j 0]

The ccw impementation "should " be the easy part, just do what current RLEO are requiered. Not harder, not easier- one class of carry for all citizens. All the rules, regulations already in force. Would just need to  expand on the actuall qualifying classes to accomadate the wave of applicants.

Lots of places do it. GFH does it with walk ins. "Justifiable need" CCWers have to qual once per year. If we go shall issue, I'm guessing they'll expand it... I'm also hoping ANJRPC will do the qualifications at Cherry Ridge. That would be awesome. 

[njpilot 671]

Nah, it's not Holder, a bench warrant by a federal judge would be the US Marshals I think, and it is my understanding they take their job seriously.

Yeah, good point.

[OchoBlue 3]

Let's say SCOTUS does strike down justifiable need and simply removes that requirement from the law. What class / qualification does one need to take to apply for the CCW?

 

I'm cautiously optimistic though in PRNJ you never know.... Friends who have followed this issue for a lot longer than I have, seem to be more pessimistic that it will NEVER happen. If we are not granted cert on the18th I doubt we'll ccw in nj in my lifetime.

[ryan_j 0]

Let's say SCOTUS does strike down justifiable need and simply removes that requirement from the law. What class / qualification does one need to take to apply for the CCW?

 

I'm cautiously optimistic though in PRNJ you never know.... Friends who have followed this issue for a lot longer than I have, seem to be more pessimistic that it will NEVER happen. If we are not granted cert on the18th I doubt we'll ccw in nj in my lifetime.

 

I believe NRA basic pistol course, plus a range qualification will satisfy the requirement. There may be a state test as well.  

[galapoola 102]

The only thing I'm worried about is how will they fit the make/models of all my hand guns on the permit? Unlike free America, in NJ you can only carry what's listed. I may need a page two, ha!

[siderman 1,137]

I have a question about qualifying, not up to date on the process. Does the test grant you blanket coverage on all your hg's or just the one you qualify with?

[EX Carnival man 223]

I have a question about qualifying, not up to date on the process. Does the test grant you blanket coverage on all your hg's or just the one you qualify with?

If its only one thats going to be a tough call for me.  Being HP's are outlawed in NJ for CC I would go with either my G30 Gen4 or my Springfield XDM 3.8 45ACP.   I would hope its for all hg's you own, but this is NJ so I could count on the worst case. 

[intercooler 41]

the consensus I have gotten from some lawyers is that the SCOTUS could essentially gut NJ laws...to the point of elimination of permitting, FPID cards and the AWB. NJ is in serious jeopardy. If the SCOTUS applies the "common use"  clause enumerated in past rulings, the AWB is done, magazine limits are done and their "carefully crafted Scheme" of permitting is in jeopardy of being struck down. The foundations of all NJ gun laws are "justifiable need" and the fact that NJ out right bans firearms, allowing them only by exemption is NOT gonna be lost by the courts. Remember, NJ is/was the start point for all other gun laws in the USA.     

[CommonSense 0]

If NJ ever becomes a "shall issue" state, that hollow point ban just has to go. It's the same logic, if you can carry a handgun for lawful self-defense, why should you be denied the most effective (and safest-  reduced risk of over-penetration and ricochet) ammunition available. NJ cops carry it.

[Fred2 367]

the consensus I have gotten from some lawyers is that the SCOTUS could essentially gut NJ laws...to the point of elimination of permitting, FPID cards and the AWB. NJ is in serious jeopardy. If the SCOTUS applies the "common use"  clause enumerated in past rulings, the AWB is done, magazine limits are done and their "carefully crafted Scheme" of permitting is in jeopardy of being struck down. The foundations of all NJ gun laws are "justifiable need" and the fact that NJ out right bans firearms, allowing them only by exemption is NOT gonna be lost by the courts. Remember, NJ is/was the start point for all other gun laws in the USA.     

 

What is really Ironic, is that NJ was at the forefront of the foundation of these United States, and the freedom that they represent.

 

What happened?

[galapoola 102]

What is really Ironic, is that NJ was at the forefront of the foundation of these United States, and the freedom that they represent.

 

What happened?

Even more irony:

Nov. 20, 1789, New Jersey ratified the Bill of Rights, comprising the first 10 amendments to the U.S. Constitution. It was the first state to do so.

[Vlad G 345]

Materials technologies are gonna make some of the HP stuff moot. Is a powerball type round a HP? Is a Federal EFMJ  HP?

 

If this does happen, NJ politicians would suffer a major coronary anyway so we'll have to have special elections to figure it all out.

[magnawing 5]

I have a feeling that, if we get CCW, we'll see the price of required training skyrocket due to the law of supply and demand. I hope I'm wrong but I fear I'm not.

 

 

This signature is AWESOME!!!

[n4p226r 105]

Wow. Already talking about what we are carrying. How many guns they are allowing on the permit. Qualifying costs. Haha. Optimistic few days here. Let's get to the 21st first