Preventing the next Brian Aitken. How should the possession laws be changed?

[JackDaWack 2,895]

Yeah, it's getting far from the point, let's just drop it. Arguing doesn't help anything. My bad.

It's all good man, the laws are confusing enough. I agree with what your saying about the Justifiable need, i just think we need more protection from the law for those who dont have a permit to carry, or where the permit may fall short like with long guns.

[mipafox 438]

It's all good man, the laws are confusing enough. I agree with what your saying about the Justifiable need, i just think we need more protection from the law for those who dont have a permit to carry, or where the permit may fall short like with long guns.

 

We don't have that protection in PA either!!!

 

The laws are almost the same on handguns. The difference is, we can get LTCF (permits) and then it is all a moot point.

 

It's funny how you can have one state with stupid laws and about 40 other states with the same stupid laws yet there can still be a world of difference due to a single exemption.

[axeman_g 128]

Sorry gentleman, I did not write it out correctly. A Hunters Safety Course. I was required to take a Hunter Safety Ed Course to get my FID card. I dont think a Hunter Safety course is that bad of an idea. It is my only concession to liberals on firearm ownership.

 

The contigous law is meant to purchase longarms and bring them back with out FFL transfer. I believe that law is overridden by the federal law to do a FFL.

 

These are the two items your going to nitpick... not the NO Carry in an place that gets more then 50% income from alchohol! You guys are off. You not going to get Vermont or Alaska type gun laws here.... ever. Try to work in the frame of what we have.

[JackDaWack 2,895]

Sorry gentleman, I did not write it out correctly. A Hunters Safety Course. I was required to take a Hunter Safety Ed Course to get my FID card. I dont think a Hunter Safety course is that bad of an idea. It is my only concession to liberals on firearm ownership.

 

The contigous law is meant to purchase longarms and bring them back with out FFL transfer. I believe that law is overridden by the federal law to do a FFL.

 

These are the two items your going to nitpick... not the NO Carry in an place that gets more then 50% income from alchohol! You guys are off. You not going to get Vermont or Alaska type gun laws here.... ever. Try to work in the frame of what we have.

 

You need to take that course for hunting i believe, they offer them online too. FID just requires paperwork. I think a course is a good idea too, not totally for it, but u can def. reason if you plan on having a gun to defend yourself, you should at least know how to actually defend yourself.

[mipafox 438]

Sorry gentleman, I did not write it out correctly. A Hunters Safety Course. I was required to take a Hunter Safety Ed Course to get my FID card. I dont think a Hunter Safety course is that bad of an idea. It is my only concession to liberals on firearm ownership.

 

You have to take a hunter safety course to get FID now? Wow, I didn't have to do that. But I got mine many years ago.

 

These are the two items your going to nitpick... not the NO Carry in an place that gets more then 50% income from alchohol! You guys are off. You not going to get Vermont or Alaska type gun laws here.... ever. Try to work in the frame of what we have.

 

I'm not sure what you mean. Are you saying that carrying in a place that gets more than 50% income from alcohol is not legal in NJ?

 

It is LEGAL in NJ right now to carry a handgun in a place that gets more than 50% income from alcohol. Is this something you want changed?

 

I don't know much about Alaska or Vermont carry laws. But every state I have carried in was legal to carry in a bar. PA, WV, AL, FL, and many others. I'v never carried in a state where it was illegal to carry in a bar. Just never ran into that situation. And it is legal in NJ.

[JackDaWack 2,895]

 

 

 

Why on earth would you want that? Do you realize that you are propsing a requirement that is not currently a part of NJ law? If you have Permit to Carry a Handgun in NJ, there are no such laws as of now. Why would you propose restrictions on the right to defend yourself?

 

 

Unfortunately, it is written where a judge may apply restrictions to the permit. This could potentially be any restriction he feels is necessary, in order to get rid of that it may be necessary to implement standard restrictions, it would be nice not to have any of course.

[mipafox 438]

Unfortunately, it is written where a judge may apply restrictions to the permit. This could potentially be any restriction he feels in necessary, in order to get rid of that it may be necessary to implement standard restrictions, it would be nice not to have any of course.

 

VERY good point. I still think you just need to go for "justifiable need," and work from there.

 

Until people carry guns in NJ, nothing will change. Nobody in NJ even realizes that the rest of the country carries guns. It's a foreign concept to them.

[axeman_g 128]

I was pointing at the Texas Laws. In Texas you may not carry in an place that derives >50% of its income from alchohol. It was the same in Ga and i believe Alabama.

 

Now, I am going way pack in the time machine... 25 years. I am pretty sure to get my FID I had to take a Hunters Safety Course in NJ.

[mipafox 438]

I was pointing at the Texas Laws. In Texas you may not carry in an place that derives >50% of its income from alchohol.

 

Fortunately that is not the case in NJ. Nor most of the US.

 

You also cannot open carry on your hip in Texas. Unlike most states. Their gun laws are pretty shitty compared to most states. NJ carry laws are far better than Texas, if you can actually get a Permit to Carry a Handgun.

 

It was the same in Ga and i believe Alabama.

 

Certainly not true about Alabama. Won't bother to check Georgia.

 

Now, I am going way pack in the time machine... 25 years. I am pretty sure to get my FID I had to take a Hunters Safety Course in NJ.

 

I only go back about 20 years, but I did not my first time nor subsequent times.

[Bob B 103]

Now, I am going way pack in the time machine... 25 years. I am pretty sure to get my FID I had to take a Hunters Safety Course in NJ.

 

Definitely not a requirement now.

[XDJohnTact 49]

Sorry gentleman, I did not write it out correctly. A Hunters Safety Course. I was required to take a Hunter Safety Ed Course to get my FID card. I dont think a Hunter Safety course is that bad of an idea. It is my only concession to liberals on firearm ownership.

 

While I agree a gun safety or Hunter's Course is a good idea (although I have no intention of ever going hunting), why is it or any course randomly required of some but not others? Just curious?

[matty 810]

I would fall over and die if the slugs that inhabit the NJ legislature and the current AG (especially) actually collaborated to invert 2Cwhatever to allow unrestricted possession of firearms and THEN put restrictions on same (carry licencing,SBR/SBS, Class 3, AWB, what have you), like America does. NJ simply does not have an ingrained gun culture, as many have pointed out on other subjects here. Quite the opposite, NJ has an ingrained anti-firearms culture. Whatever may happen it should be in 2011, in 2012 the big national election will bring the antis out of the wood work again, plus I don't think the Republicans in NJ statehouse or Gov. AWB supporter Christie have the backbone or desire to do anything about it, without severe prodding. They will screw up something else (taxes, pensions, the stupid horesracing vs. gambling in AC foofraw, whatever else they touch) and then have no political capital to spend on something like gun law reform in NJ.

[Turbofire 2]

Here's Nappen's idea of changes related to Brian's case:

 

"Brian's Law"

 

Authored by: Evan Nappen, Esq.

 

1) Upon request of the Defendant the NJS 2C:39-6 exemptions shall be read and charged to the Jury.

 

Comments; This is to guarantee that no one ever again suffers the injustice suffered by Brian at the hands of another "Judge Morley." Let the jury decide.

 

2) Amend NJS 2C:39-5 b. and f. back to a Third Degree offense and remove the "Graves Act" requirement from all of NJS 2C:39-5.

 

Comments: The Graves Act requirement currently in the law requires a minimum mandatory incarceration of 3-5 years with no chance of parole, even for first offenders with no prior offenses. At a the current Second Degree level for a violation of NJS 2C:39-5 b. and f. there is a "presumptive" sentence of 7 Years in State Prison (Max of 10 years) plus the minimum mandatory time with no chance of parole. This unfairly jeopardizes otherwise law abiding gun owners with draconian penalties for an honest mistake.

 

3) Any person charged under NJS 2C:39-5, NJS 2C:39-3, or NJS 2C:39-9 may apply for PTI regardless of the degree of offense.

 

Comments: Currently those charged under NJS 2C:39-5 b. and f. are not even allowed to APPLY for PTI because they are Second Degree offenses. PTI should always be an option for honest gun owners to get out of the system.

 

4) The type of firearm shall not be a factor in a PTI determination.

Comments: Current case law says those who possess an "Assault Firearm" are virtually "per se" disqualified from PTI. This is a very bad decision and many so-called 'Assault firearms" are commonly possessed guns that no one would believe are prohibited. For example the Marlin Model 60 .22 and the Remington Model 552 .22.

[Bob B 103]

Here's Nappen's idea of changes related to Brian's case:

 

"Brian's Law"

 

Authored by: Evan Nappen, Esq.

 

1) Upon request of the Defendant the NJS 2C:39-6 exemptions shall be read and charged to the Jury.

 

Comments; This is to guarantee that no one ever again suffers the injustice suffered by Brian at the hands of another "Judge Morley." Let the jury decide.

 

2) Amend NJS 2C:39-5 b. and f. back to a Third Degree offense and remove the "Graves Act" requirement from all of NJS 2C:39-5.

 

Comments: The Graves Act requirement currently in the law requires a minimum mandatory incarceration of 3-5 years with no chance of parole, even for first offenders with no prior offenses. At a the current Second Degree level for a violation of NJS 2C:39-5 b. and f. there is a "presumptive" sentence of 7 Years in State Prison (Max of 10 years) plus the minimum mandatory time with no chance of parole. This unfairly jeopardizes otherwise law abiding gun owners with draconian penalties for an honest mistake.

 

3) Any person charged under NJS 2C:39-5, NJS 2C:39-3, or NJS 2C:39-9 may apply for PTI regardless of the degree of offense.

 

Comments: Currently those charged under NJS 2C:39-5 b. and f. are not even allowed to APPLY for PTI because they are Second Degree offenses. PTI should always be an option for honest gun owners to get out of the system.

 

4) The type of firearm shall not be a factor in a PTI determination.

Comments: Current case law says those who possess an "Assault Firearm" are virtually "per se" disqualified from PTI. This is a very bad decision and many so-called 'Assault firearms" are commonly possessed guns that no one would believe are prohibited. For example the Marlin Model 60 .22 and the Remington Model 552 .22.

 

That's disappointing. That doesn't address the exemption/transportation issue at all and it does not distinguish between the law-abiding and the criminals. It keeps the prosecutor in a position to abuse the law and makes you need a lawyer to negotiate PTI for you. And, the legislature is not going to go for reducing handgun possession back to a 3rd class crime. See requirements added to 1st post. Whatever is done needs to protect the law-abiding (if you are law-abiding, transporting your guns unloaded, locked in the trunk for any lawful purpose is not a crime regardless of FID or Permit to Carry) while maintaining stiff penalties for criminals (if you are a criminal or have criminal intent and you possess a handgun, you go to jail for a long time). That's what I distill out of everything that has been posted so far as the two "must haves" in order to both prevent the next Brian Aitken and keep support from legislators that want the stiff penalties for criminals.

[Z71 4]

No license is required to buy a firearm in PA.

 

 

 

Not required in PA.

 

 

 

No training or reason required in PA. Just $25.

 

 

 

No FID in PA. No such thing as CCW in NJ. LTCF in PA can take up to 45 days by law but many counties give in 15 minutes.

 

 

 

There is no CCW in NJ, it is Permit to Carry a Handgun. How about this? Remove "justifiable need" from the law. You already have a simple process in place. Once you can actually carry a gun, we can tweek the process.

 

 

 

No FID in PA. No need to have one in NJ. Why do you need a license to buy a gun?

 

 

 

Why on earth would you want that? Do you realize that you are propsing a requirement that is not currently a part of NJ law? If you have Permit to Carry a Handgun in NJ, there are no such laws as of now. Why would you propose restrictions on the right to defend yourself?

 

 

 

Also not currently prohibbitted under NJ law if you have Permit to Carry a Handgun. Why would you add it? If I have to have a drink at a meeting, or decide to have a few drinks with a friend, have I forfeited my right to defend myself? There are no states around here with such a law.

who cares about PA this a NJ law topic...my list is what I think would be possible in NJ ..and yeah I have issues with people that want a drink booze while carrying a gun....months ago an off duty did some drinking and left his gun behind...how does PA deal with someone that gets stopped for DUI while carring??

current law prohibits weapons in sensitive area's..I added posted area's cause privately owned store's or bars have a right to refuse service if they wish..ther's no way in hell NJ would allow open carry.....you cant apply logic when you use; Gun and NJ in the same sentence..this state is 90% sheep (most of them think thier better than anyone else) 7% us and the remaining 3% is the reason we want to be armed.....

[usnmars 136]

My biggest wish is the abolishment of the AWB and hi cap mags.

[mipafox 438]

who cares about PA this a NJ law topic...my list is what I think would be possible in NJ

 

Well, I could have said, "The United States," but laws do vary slightly and PA is nearby and I know the laws there better.

 

My point was that I am surprised you want to add so many firearm restrictions to NJ law that are not on the books in NJ. And also that we don't have those proposed anti-gun laws in PA and the sky is not falling.

 

..and yeah I have issues with people that want a drink booze while carrying a gun....months ago an off duty did some drinking and left his gun behind...how does PA deal with someone that gets stopped for DUI while carring??

 

who cares about fat, drunk, asshole cops that can't hit the broadside of a barn...this is a topic about US Citizens.

 

(NOTE to COPS: No ill will, I respect the good guys. And if you don't know what I am talking about, then you are one of the type I mentioned earlier)

 

current law prohibits weapons in sensitive area's..

 

Citition of law, please.

 

And, if current law does, then why are you proposing it in the first place?

 

I added posted area's cause privately owned store's or bars have a right to refuse service if they wish..

 

They have the right to refuse service if you wear a hat. Why do you want a law specifically for guns? You sound anti-gun to me. Your wish list includes adding additional anti-gun laws that aren't even on the books in NJ. Seems like a very strange wish list.

 

ther's no way in hell NJ would allow open carry.....

 

There's no law against it NOW in NJ. But I wouldn't do it myself.

[Bob B 103]

The law in NJ prohibits both open and concealed carry. There's no distinction.

 

Just a friendly reminder to get us back on track. The subject is preventing the next Brian Aitken. Brian was in possession of unloaded handguns, HP's and high cap mags, locked in the trunk.

 

Becoming shall issue is a good point, because if Brian had a carry permit, he would definitely not have been arrested for the handgun charge. But, he still may have been/would have been arrested for the HP's and high cap mags. In addition, most people moving to NJ from another state wont get the carry permit in advance. We are talking about unloaded and locked in the trunk. I don't think we should set the bar where it would take a carry permit to transport unloaded and locked in the trunk. So shall issue, to me, is desirable and an improvement, but does not prevent the next Brian in all cases.

 

That is why I keep getting drawn back to the same conclusion - there must be a distinction between the law-abiding and a criminal as far as the class of the offense.

 

I am wondering how to make that distinction. In my mind, there are two ways (I definitely want to hear other ideas if they are out there).

1. FID or Permit to Carry = law-abiding citizen, no infraction. No FID or Permit to Carry = 2nd class crime (talking about possession of unloaded handgun, locked in the trunk). This creates a well defined line, but doesn't cover law-abiding citizens who don't have an FID card.

or...

2. Not subject to the disabilities set forth in 2C:58-3c = law-abiding, no infraction or slap on the wrist. Subject to the disabilities set forth in 2C:58-3c = 2nd class crime. This covers what 1 above does not.

or

3. Both 1 and 2.

 

*Note 1:

I think it is critical that we maintain the stiff penalty for the criminal or we wont have buy in from prosecutors and LE, which means we wont have support of the legislature. That's one flaw with Nappan's proposal. He wants to go back to class 3 crime for unlawful possession of a handgun. This will meet stiff resistance.

 

*Note 2:

In order to use 2 above, the subjective, arbitrary "not in the interest of public safety, health and welfare" clause must be removed from 2C:58-3C or specifically excluded in the new language distinguishing the law-abiding from criminals.

[mipafox 438]

The law in NJ prohibits both open and concealed carry. There's no distinction.

 

So it's illegal to open carry a handgun on your property and walk to your neighbor's house? Or walk to a WAWA?

 

I gotta admit that's news to me. I thought the restrictions on transporting handguns had to do with driving somewhere. Can you elaborate? I know a guy in NJ that open carries and has had run-ins with cops off of his property and after they asked him if he had permission to be there they left him alone. He seemed to have reasonable understanding of NJ laws. I certainly don't know him well, only met him a couple times. But he is very well regarded on another forum.

[Bob B 103]

So it's illegal to open carry a handgun on your property and walk to your neighbor's house? Or walk to a WAWA?

 

I gotta admit that's news to me. I thought the restrictions on transporting handguns had to do with driving somewhere. Can you elaborate? I know a guy in NJ that open carries and has had run-ins with cops off of his property and after they asked him if he had permission to be there they left him alone. He seemed to have reasonable understanding of NJ laws. I certainly don't know him well, only met him a couple times. But he is very well regarded on another forum.

 

Carrying a handgun on your property is an exemption:

 

e.Nothing in subsections b., c. and d. of N.J.S.2C:39-5 shall be construed to prevent a person keeping or carrying about his place of business, residence, premises or other land owned or possessed by him, any firearm, or from carrying the same, in the manner specified in subsection g. of this section, from any place of purchase to his residence or place of business, between his dwelling and his place of business, between one place of business or residence and another when moving, or between his dwelling or place of business and place where such firearms are repaired, for the purpose of repair. For the purposes of this section, a place of business shall be deemed to be a fixed location.

 

...although you can still be charged with possession of a weapon for an unlawful purpose, so I wouldn't advise bringing attention to yourself.

 

Walking to your neighbor's house open carrying a handgun - definitely illegal.

 

Walking to Wawa open carrying a handgun - definitely illegal.

 

Please tell your friend to read 2C:39-5 and 2C:39-6 before he ends up in jail.

[mipafox 438]

Carrying a handgun on your property is an exemption:

 

 

 

...although you can still be charged with possession of a weapon for an unlawful purpose, so I wouldn't advise bringing attention to yourself.

 

Walking to your neighbor's house open carrying a handgun - definitely illegal.

 

Walking to Wawa open carrying a handgun - definitely illegal.

 

Please tell your friend to read 2C:39-5 and 2C:39-6 before he ends up in jail.

 

He's more of an acquaintance, I don't know him well on a personal basis.

 

You didn't actually post anything that says it's not lawful to open carry to your neighbor's house on foot, BTW. I don't know NJ laws very well.

 

Let me see if I can get him to drop by. I'd be surprised if he is not a member here already.

[usnmars 136]

Isn't hi cap mags more important in brians case than ccw?

[Bob B 103]

He's more of an acquaintance, I don't know him well on a personal basis.

 

You didn't actually post anything that says it's not lawful to open carry to your neighbor's house on foot, BTW. I don't know NJ laws very well.

 

Let me see if I can get him to drop by. I'd be surprised if he is not a member here already.

 

It's in the very first post, but here it is:

2C:39-5. Unlawful possession of weapons. a. Machine guns. Any person who knowingly has in his possession a machine gun or any instrument or device adaptable for use as a machine gun, without being licensed to do so as provided in N.J.S.2C:58-5, is guilty of a crime of the second degree.

 

b.Handguns. Any person who knowingly has in his possession any handgun, including any antique handgun, without first having obtained a permit to carry the same as provided in N.J.S.2C:58-4, is guilty of a crime of the third degree if the handgun is in the nature of an air gun, spring gun or pistol or other weapon of a similar nature in which the propelling force is a spring, elastic band, carbon dioxide, compressed or other gas or vapor, air or compressed air, or is ignited by compressed air, and ejecting a bullet or missile smaller than three-eighths of an inch in diameter, with sufficient force to injure a person. Otherwise it is a crime of the second degree.

 

c.Rifles and shotguns. (1) Any person who knowingly has in his possession any rifle or shotgun without having first obtained a firearms purchaser identification card in accordance with the provisions of N.J.S.2C:58-3, is guilty of a crime of the third degree.

 

(2)Unless otherwise permitted by law, any person who knowingly has in his possession any loaded rifle or shotgun is guilty of a crime of the third degree.

 

So, unless you have a permit to carry, or there is a specific exemption for it, it's illegal. There's no exemption for carrying to your neighbor's property and even if there was, you would have to carry in accordance with 2C:39-6g.

 

g.All weapons being transported under paragraph (2) of subsection b., subsection e., or paragraph (1) or (3) of subsection f. of this section shall be carried unloaded and contained in a closed and fastened case, gunbox, securely tied package, or locked in the trunk of the automobile in which it is being transported, and in the course of travel shall include only such deviations as are reasonably necessary under the circumstances.

[mipafox 438]

It's in the very first post, but here it is:

 

 

So, unless you have a permit to carry, or there is a specific exemption for it, it's illegal. There's no exemption for carrying to your neighbor's property and even if there was, you would have to carry in accordance with 2C:39-6g.

 

 

WOW. Just WOW. Thanks.

 

I lived there for 2 decades in aggregate. This doesn't sound like any problem that couldn't be solved with half a dozen neutron bombs.

 

Sorry, but once you live in the US for a while, we sorta consider you guys a bit of a tumor

[Bob B 103]

WOW. Just WOW. Thanks.

 

I lived there for 2 decades in aggregate. This doesn't sound like any problem that couldn't be solved with half a dozen neutron bombs.

 

Sorry, but once you live in the US for a while, we sorta consider you guys a bit of a tumor

 

Most people who live in NJ have no idea how the firearms laws are written and, therefore, have no idea how to comply with them. And, if you have taken the time to study them enough to understand them, you realize that complying with them is nearly impossible.

[ianargent 7]

My thoughts are below.

 

In summary, shall issue nondiscretionary permit to carry, to allow possession of an unsecured, loaded firearm outside of current exemptions. Possession of a secured, unloaded, firearm allowed to anyone not a prohibited person outside of current exemptions.

 

FID and PPP to be replaced by a single firearms purchasing permit, shall-issue, lifetime unless revoked. (This is a concession to hoplophobes).

 

All paperwork required to be processed and returned to requester, within 5 business days of submission by requester, approved, unless background check fails. I would prefer immediate issuance, but I doubt we will get it.

[hd2000fxdl 422]

I was pointing at the Texas Laws. In Texas you may not carry in an place that derives >50% of its income from alchohol. It was the same in Ga and i believe Alabama.

 

Now, I am going way pack in the time machine... 25 years. I am pretty sure to get my FID I had to take a Hunters Safety Course in NJ.

 

I know this is an old thread but I don't think it was like that. I can't remember for sure but I could swaer I was able to get my FID at 16 in NJ, but I night not be remembering that correctly, but I can say I never had to take a class or anything else other than fill out paperwork and pay to bey my FID. But that was over 25, but under 30 years ago.

 

Harry

[BRN169 6]

I think there are only two problems with NJ gun laws... 2C:39 and 2C:58. Anything short of a complete rewrite is unacceptable. That said; don't hold your breath...

[mipafox 438]

I think there are only two problems with NJ gun laws...

 

1. NJ is still above sea level

2. I don't have any neutron bombs

 

Go Go Global Warming!!! j/k