vladtepes 1,060 Posted February 4, 2011 Basic Saiga Conversion Help.. (as best I understand it) I have gotten several PMs about the Saiga over time.. so just wanted to make a single thread with some information in it to make it easier the next time someone has a question.. this is basically a copy of a PM I sent with a little bit of extra info.. In converting a Saiga in NJ you have two birds to kill.. NJ assault weapon ban... and 922 compliance.. NJ assault weapon ban... is the gun specifically listed as being banned by name? NO it is a clone.. so that means it is legal as long as you play the evil features game... a semi automatic rifle is to be considered substantially identical if it has a detachable magazine and at least TWO of the following features... * Pistol grip (this is the ONE "evil feature" you will have) * bayonet lug (CAN'T HAVE) * flash hider or threaded barrel capable of accepting a flash hider (if you want a muzzle BRAKE you can have it.. just needs to be pinned and welded) * folding or telescopic stock (CAN'T HAVE) * grenade launcher (CAN'T HAVE) so a standard Saiga is good to go per NJ AWB laws providing you follow that info.. next is 922 compliance.. the gun is imported as a sporting rifle (low capacity magazine, no pistol grip, etc.) if you negate the sporting function (adding higher cap magazine, and pistol grip.. you need to take the total amount of imported parts present on the rifle.. and replace them with US made parts.. http://gunwiki.net/G...erifyCompliance the gun comes with 14 countable parts... these are foreign parts you will replace with US parts... you need to get the parts count down to 10... I recommend 9 just so there is a buffer.. you can NOT count parts that are not there yet.. meaning ADDING a US made pistol grip cancels itself out.. there was no pistol grip on the rifle when it was imported.. adding a foreign pistol grip would add an additional part to the original list.. making one more part to make up for.. adding a US made one cancels itself out because you go from 14 countable parts.. to 15.. but then since it is a US made pistol grip the part comes back off.. leaving the overall count unchanged.. most people do the following for simple compliance.. US made stock - 1 part US made pistol grip - no change US made fire control group (I recommend Tapco G2 they are great..) - 3 parts US made hand guard - 1 part this would get you down to 9 foreign parts total netting a rifle that is 922 compliant.. at the end of all this you end up with a gun that is both 922 and NJ compliant.. the Saiga will accept most standard AK furniture with the exception of the front hand guard.. if you want to use an AK front hand guard you will need to use an AK hand guard retainer for the bottom (and a standard AK gas tube for the top (Credit to Lunker +1 for reminding me!).. there are companies that sell ones that bolt on (Dinzag) or you can rip the gun completely apart and press on an actual AK one.. I have had good luck with the bolt on version.. and it is simple enough.. last is the consideration of magazines... since I can not use "high capacity" magazines in NJ.. I chose to use US made plastic mags (Surefire) they work well and are so far durable.. (couple years of hard use) once I leave the communist state of NJ I will use metal military surplus magazines.. to use these you need to install a bullet guide.. this is a relatively inexpensive modification, but requires patience as the metal you will be drilling into is VERY hard.... the bullet guide is a little lip/ramp that is installed in the gun directly in front of the magazine that allows the round to be pushed up ready for fire.. to use mil surp mags you will also need to SLOWLY grind a little off of the mag catch to get standard AK magazines to lock in.. If you go slowly enough you will reach a point where both mil spec AK mags and Saiga mags can be used... the key is to go slowly you can always take more metal off but if you go too far too fast you will need to replace the entire mag catch which is annoying.. Saigas I have owned Gun is NO LONGER in NJ thus NOT NJ compliant.. Saiga 7.62x39 Magpul CTR Ace Pignose Adapter Ace Internal Block Dinzag Tapco G2 FCG Hogue Grip Tromix Bolt On Charging Handle Mil Surplus 30 Round Magazine Kvar Lower Handguard CSS Lower Handguard Retainer Ultimak Gas Tube Vltor Quick Release Flashlight Mount Surefire G2 Aimpoint H1 standard conversion.. Saiga 5.45x39 AK Gas tube Bolt on lower retainer Tapco wood Tapco G2 cleaned and refinished whole gun.. Saiga 12 polished and reprofiled bolt Otherwise left in factory configuration to comply with NJ semi-automatic shotgun laws.. Saiga 7.62x39 Ace Internal Block Ace Stock Hogue Pistol Grip Tapco FCG Surefire Magazine (15rd I live in NJ) Ultimak Hand Guard Magpul AFG Viking Tactics G2 Light Mount Surefire G2 Viking Tactics Low Profile Swivel Mount With Quick Release Ultimak Gas Tube Aimpoint H1 Saiga 223 Kvar Stock Tapco FCG Tapco Saw Pistol Grip Tapco Hand Guard (with covered rail) Dinzag Lower Hand Guard Retainer AK Gas Tube 7 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Dan 177 Posted February 4, 2011 Great writeup, especially considering I was recently looking for this information due to somehow being brainwashed into considering a saiga conversion project! I wonder from who's posts..... +1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
vladtepes 1,060 Posted February 4, 2011 Saigas I have helped some good friends with.. Saiga 7.62x39 Tapco Stock Tapco Saw Pistol Grip Tapco FCG Surefire Magazine Saiga 5.45x39 AK Gas tube Bolt on lower retainer Tapco wood had to shorten LOP on stock a little for her.. lol Tapco G2 Pinned 15 round magazine (floor plate sealed) Factory Saiga for comparison.. Great writeup, especially considering I was recently looking for this information due to somehow being brainwashed into considering a saiga conversion project! I wonder from who's posts..... +1 thanks tried to be as complete as possible.. I am sure there is info I am forgetting (maybe? lol) if you have any other questions about the conversion and post them here I would be more than happy to try to help.. I am not a know it all or anything.. BUT I do have a certain love for THIS rifle.. lol Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gunnyr 17 Posted February 4, 2011 Nice writeup. There are also a good number of youtube vids out there but this one is the one I used for reference. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
vladtepes 1,060 Posted February 4, 2011 Nice writeup. There are also a good number of youtube vids out there but this one is the one I used for reference. agreed.. my little snippet is by no means an instructional on HOW to do it.. but more a general understanding of what is involved to keep it legal.. that video looks great by the way.. I remember when I did my first conversion I couldn't even find videos.. I had to use that site that had the out dated info.. with the different steps.. the most annoying part is getting the BHO installed back in the gun IF you decide to keep it.. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gunnyr 17 Posted February 4, 2011 the most annoying part is getting the BHO installed back in the gun IF you decide to keep it.. Hell yeah! At one point I was ready to scrap it and just put a washer in place to keep the fcg centered. But after having endured the pain (used dental floss and a dental pick) I'm glad I kept it. Most RSO's get nervous about AK's if you don't have a chamber flag handy so the ability to keep the bolt locked back has been a big plus for me. A lot of AK "purists" look down on a BHO but I ignore them because let's face it, it's my rifle and I'll do what I want to it. Oh and I ground down the BHO tab a bit too so it doesn't get in the way of my trigger finger. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
vladtepes 1,060 Posted February 4, 2011 Hell yeah! At one point I was ready to scrap it and just put a washer in place to keep the fcg centered. But after having endured the pain (used dental floss and a dental pick) I'm glad I kept it. Most RSO's get nervous about AK's if you don't have a chamber flag handy so the ability to keep the bolt locked back has been a big plus for me. A lot of AK "purists" look down on a BHO but I ignore them because let's face it, it's my rifle and I'll do what I want to it. Oh and I ground down the BHO tab a bit too so it doesn't get in the way of my trigger finger. maybe I have odd form or something.. but the BHO has never bothered me when shooting.. and I agree that it is a useful function when at the range.. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Anselmo 87 Posted February 5, 2011 Noob questions: 1. What is that doodad between the magazine and the trigger guard? 2. Seems there would be enough demand for a person to start a company selling NJ compliant weapons. Someone with FFL that could have the NJ illegal weapons and convert them and sell them. Is there a reason no one sells NJ converted ones? Or are they just not in demand? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
vladtepes 1,060 Posted February 5, 2011 Noob questions: 1. What is that doodad between the magazine and the trigger guard? 2. Seems there would be enough demand for a person to start a company selling NJ compliant weapons. Someone with FFL that could have the NJ illegal weapons and convert them and sell them. Is there a reason no one sells NJ converted ones? Or are they just not in demand? that is the mag catch.. holds the magazine in place.. not sure why no one in NJ converts and sells them, or works on them.. I have met several people who just didn't feel comfortable cutting up a brand new gun...... they are really fun to do.. being unemployed that would actually be a dream job.. LOL Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Dan 177 Posted February 5, 2011 that is the mag catch.. holds the magazine in place.. not sure why no one in NJ converts and sells them, or works on them.. I have met several people who just didn't feel comfortable cutting up a brand new gun...... they are really fun to do.. being unemployed that would actually be a dream job.. LOL You should post something along the lines of a business plan on converting Saigas to Fed & NJ compliant variations for a per-gun fee. The shops can have you convert then, then sell them for a reasonable profit. Sounds like a win win to me as I bet there are a ton of people out there that just don't want to take the plunge at the "hand on" experience part.. and skip right owning one. I know there are companies out there that do this, but it seems they are always out of stock, overpriced, or not NJ compliant. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
vladtepes 1,060 Posted February 5, 2011 You should post something along the lines of a business plan on converting Saigas to Fed & NJ compliant variations for a per-gun fee. The shops can have you convert then, then sell them for a reasonable profit. Sounds like a win win to me as I bet there are a ton of people out there that just don't want to take the plunge at the "hand on" experience part.. and skip right owning one. I know there are companies out there that do this, but it seems they are always out of stock, overpriced, or not NJ compliant. I would do that without ANY hesitation.. and I am not technically "building" a gun.. so would I even need to be a "gun smith"? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ray Ray 3,566 Posted February 5, 2011 Vlad, if I buy one she's going to you! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
almiz111 26 Posted February 5, 2011 Basic Saiga Conversion Help.. (as best I understand it) I have gotten several PMs about the Saiga over time.. so just wanted to make a single thread with some information in it to make it easier the next time someone has a question.. this is basically a copy of a PM I sent with a little bit of extra info.. In converting a Saiga in NJ you have two birds to kill.. NJ assault weapon ban... and 922 compliance.. NJ assault weapon ban... is the gun specifically listed as being banned by name? NO it is a clone.. so that means it is legal as long as you play the evil features game... a semi automatic rifle is to be considered substantially identical if it has a detachable magazine and at least TWO of the following features... * Pistol grip (this is the ONE "evil feature" you will have) * bayonet lug (CAN'T HAVE) * flash hider or threaded barrel capable of accepting a flash hider (if you want a muzzle BRAKE you can have it.. just needs to be pinned and welded) * folding or telescopic stock (CAN'T HAVE) * grenade launcher (CAN'T HAVE) so a standard Saiga is good to go per NJ AWB laws providing you follow that info.. next is 922 compliance.. the gun is imported as a sporting rifle (low capacity magazine, no pistol grip, etc.) if you negate the sporting function (adding higher cap magazine, and pistol grip.. you need to take the total amount of imported parts present on the rifle.. and replace them with US made parts.. http://gunwiki.net/Gunwiki/BuildSaigaVerifyCompliance the gun comes with 14 countable parts... these are foreign parts you will replace with US parts... you need to get the parts count down to 10... I recommend 9 just so there is a buffer.. you can NOT count parts that are not there yet.. meaning ADDING a US made pistol grip cancels itself out.. there was no pistol grip on the rifle when it was imported.. adding a foreign pistol grip would add an additional part to the original list.. making one more part to make up for.. adding a US made one cancels itself out because you go from 14 countable parts.. to 15.. but then since it is a US made pistol grip the part comes back off.. leaving the overall count unchanged.. most people do the following for simple compliance.. US made stock - 1 part US made pistol grip - no change US made fire control group (I recommend Tapco G2 they are great..) - 3 parts US made hand guard - 1 part this would get you down to 9 foreign parts total netting a rifle that is 922 compliant.. at the end of all this you end up with a gun that is both 922 and NJ compliant.. the Saiga will accept most standard AK furniture with the exception of the front hand guard.. if you want to use an AK front hand guard you will need to use an AK hand guard retainer for the bottom (and a standard AK gas tube for the top (Credit to Lunker +1 for reminding me!).. there are companies that sell ones that bolt on (Dinzag) or you can rip the gun completely apart and press on an actual AK one.. I have had good luck with the bolt on version.. and it is simple enough.. last is the consideration of magazines... since I can not use "high capacity" magazines in NJ.. I chose to use US made plastic mags (Surefire) they work well and are so far durable.. (couple years of hard use) once I leave the communist state of NJ I will use metal military surplus magazines.. to use these you need to install a bullet guide.. this is a relatively inexpensive modification, but requires patience as the metal you will be drilling into is VERY hard.... the bullet guide is a little lip/ramp that is installed in the gun directly in front of the magazine that allows the round to be pushed up ready for fire.. to use mil surp mags you will also need to SLOWLY grind a little off of the mag catch to get standard AK magazines to lock in.. My Saiga.. one of my old ones.. and one I did for a friend.. Saiga 7.62x39 Ace Internal Block Ace Stock Hogue Pistol Grip Tapco FCG Surefire Magazine (15rd I live in NJ) Ultimak Hand Guard Magpul AFG Viking Tactics G2 Light Mount Surefire G2 Viking Tactics Low Profile Swivel Mount With Quick Release Ultimak Gas Tube Aimpoint H1 Saiga 223 Kvar Stock Tapco FCG Tapco Saw Pistol Grip Tapco Hand Guard (with covered rail) Dinzag Lower Hand Guard Retainer AK Gas Tube Saiga 7.62x39 Tapco Stock Tapco Saw Pistol Grip Tapco FCG Surefire Magazine Factory Saiga for comparison.. Help I am lost. Arsenal Inc web site says a Saiga SGL24 is ok for NJ and pic shows a pistol grip?? So why modify? While I am at it -what about the EAA Zapasta or whatever? Thanks. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
vladtepes 1,060 Posted February 5, 2011 Help I am lost. Arsenal Inc web site says a Saiga SGL24 is ok for NJ and pic shows a pistol grip?? So why modify? While I am at it -what about the EAA Zapasta or whatever? Thanks. because arsenal guns are $700+ you can do it yourself for a lot less.. even with someone "helping you" it would probably be substantially less.. AND on top of that you get to pick whatever furniture YOU want.. the PAP is an OK gun but I prefer the Russian builds.. PAPs require specific magazines and so on.. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
fliks 20 Posted February 5, 2011 Vlad - Dan's idea is golden!!! you'd probably end up charging way less for a complete rifle than Century and people can pick and choose accessories. If it would be worth your time - it could be an excellent little side business. Look into it - you may have a few NJGF customers lined up already. Myself included, as soon as I can scrape up the cash. Do some calculations, put together a price list and see what happens. There's no $ investment for you unless you really want to advertise - people can order the parts and buy the rifle themselves or any combination thereof and you do the conversion. Good luck, let us know what you come up with! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
petros600 12 Posted February 5, 2011 Here is another example of what others charge to do the conversion (labor only) http://overlandindustries.com/kits.php "We also perform "professionally grade" Saiga conversions, back half is $150.00, and front half is $100.00 (labor only, you supply the parts). Saiga conversion do not include a full refinish as described below, just touch up of areas worked on" So total $250 plus shipping both ways(average $25 each way) =$300 Any less than than $250 for labor is a bargain(maybe $200-$225 for the members here ) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
vladtepes 1,060 Posted February 6, 2011 Thanks for all the kind feedback... It is really appreciated Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Melgamatic 66 Posted February 6, 2011 On Tapco's website they say several places that the G2 trigger group isn't meant for Saiga's, is this the right part? Tapco AK G2 Or is there a different part I can't see? Thanks! This is a very good thread with great information. I bought my first Saiga 7.62x39 today! -Dave Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gunnyr 17 Posted February 6, 2011 On Tapco's website they say several places that the G2 trigger group isn't meant for Saiga's, is this the right part? Tapco AK G2 Or is there a different part I can't see? Thanks! This is a very good thread with great information. I bought my first Saiga 7.62x39 today! -Dave That will work on a Saiga. There are a crapload of converted saigas out there with G2 triggers. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
vladtepes 1,060 Posted February 6, 2011 Most saigas are pre cut for an ak single hook fire control group... In factory form you can not use it in Saiga so that is probably what they mean... A Saiga converted will take any ak single hook fcg.. Double hook required cutting... Further.. If you retain the bolt hold open feature... Then you need to shave it down because it is too wide.. Some retailers like dinzag sell ones already shaved down... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CageFighter 236 Posted February 24, 2011 so vladtepes, you wanna do a conversion? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
vjf915 456 Posted February 24, 2011 I have been looking up the conversion, and it just seems to take some time and hand tools, a drill at most. I have the parts in a "shopping cart" online, planning to order them tomorrow or Friday. Looking forward to this conversion. Side note. Does anybody know if the trigger guard is considered one of the 14 parts? Edit: (1) Frames, receivers, receiver castings, forgings or stampings * (2) Barrels * (3) Barrel extensions (4) Mounting blocks (trunions) * (5) Muzzle attachments * (6) Bolts * (7) Bolt carriers * (8) Operating rods (9) Gas pistons * (10) Trigger housings (11) Triggers * (12) Hammers * (13) Sears (14) Disconnectors * (15) Buttstocks * (16) Pistol grips * (17) Forearms, handguards * (18) Magazine bodies * (19) Followers * (20) Floorplates * Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
vladtepes 1,060 Posted February 24, 2011 so vladtepes, you wanna do a conversion? I always want to do a conversion.. LOL Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
vladtepes 1,060 Posted February 24, 2011 I have been looking up the conversion, and it just seems to take some time and hand tools, a drill at most. I have the parts in a "shopping cart" online, planning to order them tomorrow or Friday. Looking forward to this conversion. Side note. Does anybody know if the trigger guard is considered one of the 14 parts? Edit: (1) Frames, receivers, receiver castings, forgings or stampings * (2) Barrels * (3) Barrel extensions (4) Mounting blocks (trunions) * (5) Muzzle attachments * (6) Bolts * (7) Bolt carriers * (8) Operating rods (9) Gas pistons * (10) Trigger housings (11) Triggers * (12) Hammers * (13) Sears (14) Disconnectors * (15) Buttstocks * (16) Pistol grips * (17) Forearms, handguards * (18) Magazine bodies * (19) Followers * (20) Floorplates * you need a dremel as well IMO.. trigger guard is not a countable part as far as I know.. I do not know what a trigger housing is.. fire control group is 3 alone.. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
vjf915 456 Posted February 24, 2011 Trigger guard is a no-go, this is a trigger housing: I will be fine with the parts I currently have in mind, I will just make sure that I use U.S. mags, and I will be at 10. Once I get a little more coin, I can get a better handguard that is U.S. made. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
siderman 1,137 Posted March 1, 2011 was wondering if anyone has experience with the safety selecter replacement by Blackjack Buffer(?),the SWIFT lever? Also would it make sense to do a bullet guide at this time (conversion) or would it somehow interfere with the current mags? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
vladtepes 1,060 Posted March 1, 2011 was wondering if anyone has experience with the safety selecter replacement by Blackjack Buffer(?),the SWIFT lever? Also would it make sense to do a bullet guide at this time (conversion) or would it somehow interfere with the current mags? here is the deal with Magazines... The Saiga stock does not have a bullet guide... a bullet guide is a little metal feed ramp that allows the round to be pushed up into the gun... with a Saiga the bullet guide is built into the magazine... this is what prevents you from using AK47 magazines right off of the shelf... I chose not to do the bullet guide when I did the conversion.. the reason I chose not to do it is because it can be a pain in the a**, and there are several magazine options made exclusively for Saigas (Surefire work well for me).. and since I can not use 30 round mil surplus magazines I saw no point in doing the bullet guide.. now that I plan to move to a free state I will without question be looking into a bullet guide.. as far as the magazine compatibility this is how it works.. stock Saiga will need two things to accept mil spec AK47 magazines... 1)a bullet guide.. if you install one.. get a high quality drill bit and go SLOW.. the metal you are drilling is pretty hard.. 2)you will need to file down the mag catch ever so slightly.... if you file the mag catch down and go VERY slowly you can reach a point where BOTH mil surplus AND Saiga specific magazines work.. make sure you function check ALL magazines you intend to use since magazines can be slightly out of spec one to the other.. I would also shoot a mag fully loaded to empty several times before assuming it works correctly.. just take it all slow if you do the bullet guide and you will be fine.. in retrospect I should have just done it while the gun was apart.. 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
vjf915 456 Posted March 2, 2011 I think that if you intend to do a bullet guide, it will be better to do it while the gun is apart. It is a relatively cheap part, roughly $15. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gunnyr 17 Posted March 2, 2011 I think that if you intend to do a bullet guide, it will be better to do it while the gun is apart. It is a relatively cheap part, roughly $15. Yep but take your time and get a drill press if at all possible. That $15 part can easily turn into an expensive receiver repair. There is one guy at the saiga forum who swears that using JB Weld on his bullet guide was good enough as it is a non-stress bearing part. All I can say is that I'm glad that's not my rifle... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
vjf915 456 Posted March 2, 2011 JB Weld is some tough crap, and no it's not a stress bearing part.....but no way in hell would I trust that in my rifle. I hope to get a drill press soon, that's probably the next tool on my list, but for this first conversion I will be carefully using a hand drill. I'm not doing the bullet guide for this conversion, at least not yet. Was going to order one with the rest of the parts, but the site only had flat trunion, not round trunion. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites