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almiz111

AK clone vs. AR15

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I've been shopping for an AK clone. It appears that NJ has an HO for AK clones. However I can buy all the AR15 I want. Both types do the same thing but with a different caliber. And they are probably built in a different country.

 

QUESTION ONE: So does anybody know the story with CERTAINTY?? What gives in NJ? AK???????????? AR15????????????

 

Background:

1. Butch's in Vineland has WASR10 and IO on the shelf.

2. Cheyenne was selling IO and was harrassed by the State Cops to recall all IO. Now they have no IO and I was told today that they are not messing with no AK clones of any brand no way no how.

3. There is a Saiga SGL24 'on line' that claims approved for NJ, NY. What gives?

 

And QUESTION TWO: You buy an AK clone and the Cops challenge you. The dealer told you OK IN NJ. What do you do then??

 

Appreciate your help.

AlMiz

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1) is the weapon specifically named as a prohibited assault weapon as per NJ law?

 

Algimec AGM1 type

Any shotgun with a revolving cylinder such as the "Street Sweeper" or "Striker 12"

Armalite AR-180 type

Australian Automatic Arms SAR

Avtomat Kalashnikov type semi-automatic firearms

Beretta AR-70 and BM59 semi-automatic firearms

Bushmaster Assault Rifle

Calico M-900 Assault carbine and M-900

CETME G3

Chartered Industries of Singapore SR-88 type

Colt AR-15 and CAR-15 series

Daewoo K-1, K-2, Max 1 and Max 2, AR 100 types

Demro TAC-1 carbine type

Encom MP-9 and MP-45 carbine types

FAMAS MAS223 types

FN-FAL, FN-LAR, or FN-FNC type semi-automatic firearms

Franchi SPAS 12 and LAW 12 shotguns

G3SA type

Galil type

Heckler and Koch HK91, HK93, HK94, MP5, PSG-1

Intratec TEC 9 and 22 semi-automatic firearms

M1 carbine type

M14S type

MAC 10, MAC 11, MAC 11-9 mm carbine type firearms

PJK M-68 carbine type

Plainfield Machine Company Carbine

Ruger K-Mini-14/5 and Mini-14/5

SIG AMT, SIG 550SP, SIG 551SP, SIG PE-57 types

SKS with detachable magazine type

Spectre Auto carbine type

Springfield Armory BM59 and SAR-48 type

Sterling MK-6, MK-7 and SAR types

Steyr A.U.G. semi-automatic firearms

USAS 12 semi-automatic type shotgun

Uzi type semi-automatic firearms

Valmet M62, M71S, M76, or M78 type semi-automatic firearms

Weaver Arm Nighthawk

 

YES - Illegal

NO - proceed to question 2

 

2) is it substantially identical to any named assault weapon. Substantially identical as defined by AG guidelines.

a rifle is substantially identical if it is a semi automatic rifle with detachable magazine and TWO of the following are present...

* Pistol grip

* Bayonet Lug

* folding or telescoping stock

* flash hider or threaded barrel capable of accepting a flash hider

* grenade launcher

 

YES - Illegal

NO - Legal

 

that will apply to all semi auto rifles.

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1) is the weapon specifically named as a prohibited assault weapon as per NJ law?

 

Algimec AGM1 type

Any shotgun with a revolving cylinder such as the "Street Sweeper" or "Striker 12"

Armalite AR-180 type

Australian Automatic Arms SAR

Avtomat Kalashnikov type semi-automatic firearms

Beretta AR-70 and BM59 semi-automatic firearms

Bushmaster Assault Rifle

Calico M-900 Assault carbine and M-900

CETME G3

Chartered Industries of Singapore SR-88 type

Colt AR-15 and CAR-15 series

Daewoo K-1, K-2, Max 1 and Max 2, AR 100 types

Demro TAC-1 carbine type

Encom MP-9 and MP-45 carbine types

FAMAS MAS223 types

FN-FAL, FN-LAR, or FN-FNC type semi-automatic firearms

Franchi SPAS 12 and LAW 12 shotguns

G3SA type

Galil type

Heckler and Koch HK91, HK93, HK94, MP5, PSG-1

Intratec TEC 9 and 22 semi-automatic firearms

M1 carbine type

M14S type

MAC 10, MAC 11, MAC 11-9 mm carbine type firearms

PJK M-68 carbine type

Plainfield Machine Company Carbine

Ruger K-Mini-14/5 and Mini-14/5

SIG AMT, SIG 550SP, SIG 551SP, SIG PE-57 types

SKS with detachable magazine type

Spectre Auto carbine type

Springfield Armory BM59 and SAR-48 type

Sterling MK-6, MK-7 and SAR types

Steyr A.U.G. semi-automatic firearms

USAS 12 semi-automatic type shotgun

Uzi type semi-automatic firearms

Valmet M62, M71S, M76, or M78 type semi-automatic firearms

Weaver Arm Nighthawk

 

YES - Illegal

NO - proceed to question 2

 

2) is it substantially identical to any named assault weapon. Substantially identical as defined by AG guidelines.

a rifle is substantially identical if it is a semi automatic rifle with detachable magazine and TWO of the following are present...

* Pistol grip

* Bayonet Lug

* folding or telescoping stock

* flash hider or threaded barrel capable of accepting a flash hider

* grenade launcher

 

YES - Illegal

NO - Legal

 

that will apply to all semi auto rifles.

 

I've gone through this before but...

 

This information came from here August 19, 1996 Attorney General's Guidelines Regarding the "Substantially Identical" Provision inthe State's Assault Firearms Laws

 

The problem with AK clones stems from what I previously laied out here: http://njgunforums.com/forum/index.php?/topic/19939-the-new-attorney-generals-interpretation-of-2c39-1w-assault-firearm-means-avtomat-kalashnikov-type-semiautomatic-firearms/page__view__findpost__p__264264 and further complicated with the 1996 Monmouth county v. Robert D. Merrill decision I laied out here: http://njgunforums.com/forum/index.php?/topic/21619-mac-90-jersey-legal/page__view__findpost__p__287981

 

The state is trying to reassert the "banned as a type" standard without revisiting the fact that it was flawed in the original statement which introduced it...

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I've gone through this before but...

 

This information came from here August 19, 1996 Attorney General's Guidelines Regarding the "Substantially Identical" Provision inthe State's Assault Firearms Laws

 

The problem with AK clones stems from what I previously laied out here: http://njgunforums.com/forum/index.php?/topic/19939-the-new-attorney-generals-interpretation-of-2c39-1w-assault-firearm-means-avtomat-kalashnikov-type-semiautomatic-firearms/page__view__findpost__p__264264 and further complicated with the 1996 Monmouth county v. Robert D. Merrill decision I laied out here: http://njgunforums.com/forum/index.php?/topic/21619-mac-90-jersey-legal/page__view__findpost__p__287981

 

The state is trying to reassert the "banned as a type" standard without revisiting the fact that it was flawed in the original statement which introduced it...

 

 

having spoken to more FFLs and LEOs than one can count.. right or wrong.. the consensus tends to be if it is named specifically then it is a no go.. if it is a clone of a gun listed then you must play the evil feature game to be sure it is not substantially identical as defined by NJ..

 

the whole "type" thing is bs because you can't ban a gun by "type" there is no way to know what "type" means.. it is simply too vague.. for example a wasr.. it looks a lot like an AK.. but it is simply not an AK.. it might be a clone of one? but as long as it is not substantially identical it is a non issue..

 

IMO of course..

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But then again, who decides what constitutes substantially identical

 

 

the AG... which was the whole point of the letter released..

 

is it substantially identical to any named assault weapon. Substantially identical as defined by AG guidelines.

a rifle is substantially identical if it is a semi automatic rifle with detachable magazine and TWO of the following are present...

* Pistol grip

* Bayonet Lug

* folding or telescoping stock

* flash hider or threaded barrel capable of accepting a flash hider

* grenade launcher

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But according to that a SCAR is illegal, but our good friend Joejaxx will tell you otherwise :p

Technically the features game should not apply to non-clones of banned guns. i.e. The Kel-Tec RFB is a completely different design from any other gun on the list, it could never qualify as "substantially identical" even with a flash hider and a bayonet lug as the law was originally drafted because the law originally provided for the AG to add guns to the list annually... The substantially identical standard was intended to compare similar designs to one another.

 

In fact the weapon I have been talking about for years that is going to hang someone is the Ruger KB Mini-14. This gun was originally considered a legal weapon when the assault weapon ban was written, it was not included in the ban and owners were told they did not need to register them, only the Ruger K-Mini-14/5F and Mini-14/5RF which were the side folders were banned. The bastardization of the language from the 1994 Federal ban creating this features hodgepodge and "banned as types" BS has done absolutely nothing to clarify the law as everyone seems to make up their own rules as to what guns the features list applies to...

 

(BTW vladtepes, your list is wrong, the F models were the only Mini-14s listed which were the folders)

 

Ruger KB Mini-14

2140_1.jpg

 

 

Ruger K-Mini-14/5F

mini14gb-f.jpg

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Technically the features game should not apply to non-clones of banned guns. i.e. The Kel-Tec RFB is a completely different design from any other gun on the list, it could never qualify as "substantially identical" even with a flash hider and a bayonet lug as the law was originally drafted because the law originally provided for the AG to add guns to the list annually... The substantially identical standard was intended to compare similar designs to one another.

 

In fact the weapon I have been talking about for years that is going to hang someone is the Ruger KB Mini-14. This gun was originally considered a legal weapon when the assault weapon ban was written, it was not included in the ban and owners were told they did not need to register them, only the Ruger K-Mini-14/5F and Mini-14/5RF which were the side folders were banned. The bastardization of the language from the 1994 Federal ban creating this features hodgepodge and "banned as types" BS has done absolutely nothing to clarify the law as everyone seems to make up their own rules as to what guns the features list applies to...

 

(BTW vladtepes, your list is wrong, the F models were the only Mini-14s listed which were the folders)

 

Ruger KB Mini-14

2140_1.jpg

 

 

Ruger K-Mini-14/5F

mini14gb-f.jpg

didn't look through the list completely just copied it from a quick google search..

the exact wording as you stated..

 

Ruger K-Mini-14/5 F and Mini-14/5 RF

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Technically the features game should not apply to non-clones of banned guns. i.e. The Kel-Tec RFB is a completely different design from any other gun on the list, it could never qualify as "substantially identical" even with a flash hider and a bayonet lug as the law was originally drafted because the law originally provided for the AG to add guns to the list annually... The substantially identical standard was intended to compare similar designs to one another.

 

while I KNOW that you are technically correct.. I don'[t know if anyone has really pushed this yet.. would be very interested to see the outcome..

 

Yes, technically. If the weapon is functionally completely different from one on the list this should catch that:

 

2. Any firearm manufactured under any designation, which is substantially identical to any of the

firearms listed in paragraph 1 above. As used in this definition, the term "substantial" means

pertaining to the substance, matter, material or essence of a thing and the term "identical" means

exactly the same. Hence, a firearm is substantially identical to another only if it is identical in all

material, essential respects. A firearm is not substantially identical to a listed assault firearm unless

it is identical except for differences that do not alter the essential nature of the firearm.

 

However with that being said the "substantially identical" (SI) standard would have to be applied to every weapon not

on the list, because (according to the law) the SI standard will determine what is and is not a clone.

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