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Ray Ray

870 or 590A1

  

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  1. 1. Which is better?



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Shane said it better then iI could.

 

Older 870s use all steel parts, Mossberg still uses steel internal parts. The 870P is more along the lines of the original 870 Wingmasters... all steel and a finer finish internally, but at a premium of more then 2x the cost of some 590 models or 3x a 500. I would take a 590 over a 870P, mainly because I am a lefty and the mossbergs work better for me. I like big safeties in easy to reach locations.

 

But shotguns are so much Ford vs Chevy, Cub Cadet vs John Deere. You buy one, you run it, you love it.

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Older guns > New guns.

 

Back in the day, they didn't cheap out on firearms production, today they do.

 

Agreed. My personal nod would go to the Ithaca M37 or the defunct Winchester M12. Both are machined steel utilizing forged parts. Nothing stamped or staked. No aluminum needed to lessen weight. The Ithaca suffers from less than desirable features and functionality in the self-maintenance & defense arena. It's not as popular as it once was. The Winchester M12 is simply too cost-prohibitive to reproduce today. (The M12 is a shotgun that can be broken down in two parts with the simple twist of the takedown lever in the magazine tube, and further dis-assembly is facilitated by a single screw in the rear of the trigger guard. How ingenious is that?) Both qualify as better made shotguns from a time that expected and demanded such.

 

Today's Remington 870 is a good shotgun, but more a marvel of manufacturing genius to lessen costs. Its predecessor, the Model 31, was a better made gun but more expensive to produce, and never sold well compared to the shotgun it was trying to emulate, the Winchester Model 12. The Model 31 was phased out in 1949 in favor of the 870 which came on the scene in 1950. The rest is history. The 870 is a good design that works and is still economical to produce.

 

My 1984 870 is a well-made, slick-pumping shotgun. My Ithaca's (1960 & 1968) are superb-working machines. My 1961 Winchester Model 12 is an overbuilt engineering masterpiece. I'm biased towards these, as they have both soul and character.

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Are you asking me why I prefer my old 870 to new? Its not subjective at all. My old 870 is ALL metal compared to a new 870. There are no mim parts in it. A new 870 express vs an 870 police is the same difference. An 870 police is all metal and doesnt use mim parts. The only subjective part of the equation is prefference in operation. I prefer the safety location of the mossy as well as the loading chute. So I guess the salient point is to understand that the order I place these shotguns has strong ties to their construction. This directly relates to their reliability and durability with an eye on thier operation for my own personal preferences.

 

I still don't understand the disdain for polymer parts or MIM parts. Don't you think they test this stuff out before they let it go into production? You really can't kill these guns, they'll last a few lifetimes.

 

Glocks are plastic and they seem to be doing just fine. It's the 1911 that needs to be worked out to get them to run right. The point is plastic/polymer is here to stay, and it's durable, strong, and reliable. Please stop with the plastic bashing, if everyone thought that way we'd still be using Muskets and Flint locks from long ago. The change is here!

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Ray Ray your retard is showing! Your implying the guy with 2 SCARS and a PS90 has a thing against plastic? However, I do believe you are lacking a bit of experience where exactly polymer can be a problem. Heres a few questions for you. Why is the upper on the SCAR metal? Related question, why shouldnt you lay down a G36 after sustained full auto fire? What happened when Deet based products used by a certain group operating in the deep jungle came into contact with polymer stocks? I know, these things possibly couldnt happen because everything is tested right?

 

Guess who snapped the polymer trigger housing on DAY 1 with their FN TPS? OK lets talk about why NO ONE makes a mim crank shaft.

 

In my experience mim parts have a higher tendancy to go SNAP. But not all. There are SOME good mim parts. But Im notinterested in saving 3 dollars to chase them down.

 

Ray if you like cheap, then by all means. But I will always speak from experience on these topics. It is what it is and that is not bashing. You can keep your "cahnge" because that change is driven by a low use, disposable mindset.

 

Ill keep my Snap On tools, tool steel parts, hand made machinery, old world craftsmanship. There is a reason I passed up every modern made in taiwan milling machine and lathe and bought a 1942 logan lathe and a 1957 Clausing mill. Why? Because my machines, although old, run circles around anything new and will still hold their accuracy long after the "disposable" machines are in the scrap yard.

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I still don't understand the disdain for polymer parts or MIM parts. Don't you think they test this stuff out before they let it go into production? You really can't kill these guns, they'll last a few lifetimes.

 

Glocks are plastic and they seem to be doing just fine. It's the 1911 that needs to be worked out to get them to run right. The point is plastic/polymer is here to stay, and it's durable, strong, and reliable. Please stop with the plastic bashing, if everyone thought that way we'd still be using Muskets and Flint locks from long ago. The change is here!

I agree that the advantages of plastics and polymers are here to stay. MIM parts are a cheapening of the original part as a cost benefit process. Chances are it will last a while. And there are chances it won't. Only time will tell, but I would bet on the "won't" category. Consider the Model 1912 for example. Next year will be the 1912's 100th anniversary. There are still a number of nickel steel Model 1912's floating around, in use by some and in private collections because of the value they command. Their durability today is a testament to their build quality of yesteryear. It will take a while before other pumps can lay claim to a record of longevity like that.

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I'm not running a full auto rifle or running around in a jungle. I'm in friggen Bayonne fending off crack-heads, home invaders, thugs and zombies! Shane, I appreciate your knowledge as i've learned a bunch from you. But unless I'm told to take that hill or hold down the fort, the 870 and 590 will do the job. Hell, I'd take that hill AND hold down the fort with both!

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Ray and Shane... Ray just brought up the essence of the argument. If you are counting on a firearm to be workable when you need to secure yourself or your family from a BG, as Ray is, then poly/MIM/Alum will work for you. Whereas if you are talking about securing your country after the SHTF and reppeling the hordes... then steel is reguired.

 

It really does depend on what you are personally training for.

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Hehe Axe I understand what you are saying. I just tend to use extreme examples because it makes it easier to visualise my point. How about the example of HK SL8's. They have a BAD habbit of the lowers cracking. And hey, I dont think you have to be an operator to use bug spray :D Now me personally, Im not even fighting crack heads. BUT id hate to have the day come when I do have to protect my family and I fail because of saving 3 bucks on a part. Thats not to say there isnt a point of diminished returns. And in fact if you look at my list I think I rated the Mossy 590 rather favorably. But it is interesting to me that the trigger housing on a 500 is plastic and I believe the one on a 590A1 is metal :D Hell my housing on my TPS is plastic. I broke it day 1! This is a $700 shotgun! The fact is how I broke it, it would NOT have broken if it was metal.

 

Understand that for me its about the application of the material, not hating on what the naterial is. I dont use titanium firing pins either! In my opinion even though Ti is great, that is a bad application of that material.

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Shane, I totally understand your point of view. But, using the 3 most popular guns for an example, the 500, 590 and 870 have been protecting homes, properties, LE and Military for a long time.

 

Thanks Gerry

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Just for clarification, Im not nor did I mean to imply they are not capable of performing their task especially in limited use scenarios. But keep in mind that the mil/le versions dont use plastic or mim. My point is that better parts are an insurance policy. Luck favors the prepared. And if you train with what you run, the better parts pay dividens here because the equipment holds up better. And so thats why my preferances run in the order they do. So when the SHTF you two can walk the perimiter with your shotguns and finish off the ones I winged with my rifle :icon_twisted:

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So when the SHTF you two can walk the perimiter with your shotguns and finish off the ones I winged with my rifle :icon_twisted:

 

Well, if you used a real caliber like a 7.62x39mm then he would've been down for good on the first shot!

 

jk

 

All points taken, and the Mossy wins the votes. Doesn't matter though, as I like BOTH!

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44 minutes ago, Caine said:

Admitting your faults is the first step towards recovery.  Glad you finally saw the light, and you're welcome.  ;)

Saw the light?  I've been permanently blinded, burnt to a crisp and wanting another. 

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wait, so what were you wrong about? i take it you own or have at one time owned both. has the remington wronged you in some way over the past 7 years? i assume their quality has gone downhill (so i read), but that wouldn't impact the one you already own.

i myself say get both. they both look absolutely badass. it's the only way to be truly happy. same answer for shockwave vs tac 14 btw

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11 hours ago, Indianajonze said:

wait, so what were you wrong about? i take it you own or have at one time owned both. has the remington wronged you in some way over the past 7 years? i assume their quality has gone downhill (so i read), but that wouldn't impact the one you already own.

The 870 I used to own choked.  It was NOT reliable.  I bought it brand new in 2005 or 06.  The gun I owned would not eject empty shells from the chamber reliably or consistently.  The gun would lock up and I would have to mortar it to eject the empty shell.  On to Mossberg I went.

Mossbergs have ambi controls, superior barrels, top notch quality control and a proven track record with civilian and military personnel.

It has gone from Remington being top dog up until the mid 2000s to now only selling guns to uninformed and fudds.  Very sad

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1 hour ago, Ray Ray said:

The 870 I used to own choked.  It was NOT reliable.  I bought it brand new in 2005 or 06.  The gun I owned would not eject empty shells from the chamber reliably or consistently.  The gun would lock up and I would have to mortar it to eject the empty shell.  On to Mossberg I went.

Mossbergs have ambi controls, superior barrels, top notch quality control and a proven track record with civilian and military personnel.

It has gone from Remington being top dog up until the mid 2000s to now only selling guns to uninformed and fudds.  Very sad

Sadly, Remington's quality control took a BIG downturn when they got bought-out, moved-out, and consolidated with Marlin, Winchester, and whoever else Cerberus bought-up back in the late 1990's and early 2000's.  Cerberus is essentially a corporate raider who had a grand and glorious plan to consolidate several makers under one roof, streamline the manufacturing, then sell-off the combined operation for a profit.  They bought-out several, laid-off a ton of folks (who knew how to make the product), and consolidated somewhere down south, where labor is cheaper. 

Then along came Sandy Hook. 

Since they couldn't sell the operation as a whole, Cerberus did what corporate raiders do....they sold-off what pieces they could, loaded what was left up to the gills with debt, and forced it into bankruptcy.  There's a lot more twists and turns to this story.....like Remington's 870, which is a good design, but good design can't save cheep manufacturing and crappy assembly, or Marlin, who couldn't transition their lever guns to CNC machinery, since there were no drawings....just guys who knew how to make the parts! 

Right now, I believe the debtors are now the owners, and *hopefully* they can turn the mess around into a viable company again. 

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13 minutes ago, W2MC said:

Right now, I believe the debtors are now the owners, and *hopefully* they can turn the mess around into a viable company again. 

When (if) that day comes, I will be first in line for an 870 Police Magnum.  

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