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cold shot

AR/.223 Scope advice

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Guys,

 

I would like to enjoy mid-long range shooting with an AR with a 20" barrel. Was looking at 2 scopes for this and wondering if these AR specific scopes are overkill or not:

 

http://swfa.com/Nikon-3-12x42-M223-Riflescope-Kit-P47972.aspx

 

http://swfa.com/Leupold-3-9x40-Mark-AR-Riflescope-Package-Deal-P44574.aspx

 

OR, should I stick to a generic scope and not caliber specific.

 

Also not sure about the reticles, Mil-Dot, BDC, Nikoplex, Point Blank, Duplex, etc ???

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Opinions are worth what you pay for them. That being said, the Nikon is just a generic scope that they are calling a .223 something. There is no BDC function and the reticle is just a graduated crosshair (they call theirs Nikoplex). I would go for the Nikon. I'm not a big fan of the pre-set BDC functions. They are calibrated for a specific bullet weight, but you will find that loads from different manufacturers, or different handloads, all using the same bullet, may shoot to different points of aim. Plus you never know when you may want to play "musical scopes", so why limit the usefulness of the scope by restricting it to one caliber, bullet weight, load.

 

I also like the adjustable parallax, the higher magnification (which is why you need the adj parallax), the side focus (parallax) and the scope covers that are all standard with the Nikon. Just a more versatile scope in my opinion (see first sentence).

 

Adios,

 

Pizza Bob

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I am not all that educated when it comes to magnified optics.. but I run a Leupold 3-9x40 scope on my AR10.. and it works well for me.. seems clear enough.. was not all that costly.. picked it up used, and has never given me issue.. but like I said my experience is limited..

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A big scope makes the AR look and feel all top heavy. A scope with too much power will not help you in a close up emergency. Get a small light scope like the Weaver V3 1-3 power and an amazing wide field of view. Will solve any problem you encounter from across the room to several hundred yards out.

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I am not sure what you were looking to spend but for all around use (long range and CQB) I love my trijicon ta33-8 !

 

It was designed to use with both eyes open. It takes a little getting use to but it makes getting on targets and maintaining targets easy.

Personally I like the BINDON AIMING CONCEPT (both eyes open) they use because you can use it for short engagement and get on targets faster.

 

TA33-8

3x magnification

Amber chevron

BDC for .223

Decent eye relief for an ACOG

 

The only thing some shooters may not like is your field of view at 100 yards is a little narrow... 19 feet

 

There maybe better options out there but when I did my research that was what I decided on. I could not be happier with it.

 

When I build my AR10 I will by another Trijicon ACOG TA648-308

 

Worth checking out IMHO

 

Just my .02.....

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NJ, the Op listed medium long range. I dont think the TA33 fits this role very well. As for the TA648, there MANY better choices out there at that price point!

 

I am not sure why you would disagree with the scope being a good fit for the application with the exception of when it comes time to start ranging out past 200 yards.

 

With some range time one could use it up close and personal and at the same time reach out and touch someone with-in 200 yards. I will agree that it is not a precision scope. That is what sold me on it, in a real life situation you may not be running in 2s with one person running security while you try to range out there. You could find yourself with multiple engagement distances and I don't think they will be over 200 yards. Just thinking practical as well. Like glockman said, to much scope close up will leave one in a bad situation.

 

 

One other draw back of the TA33- front sight shows up as a blur at the very bottom(unless you have a flip-up fs), you learn to ignore it, it isn't bad.

 

 

 

Shane if you have other suggestions on the scope for my up coming project, I am defiantly open to them... Please shoot me a pm... I don't want to hijack his thread.

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For now, limitation of NJ ranges = 200 yds at Fort Dix but soon enough will find me elsewhere with longer ranges.

 

300 yards at Central Jersey

 

Not sure how far ballistics of .223 can realistically go

 

Well depends on what you want to do. People have shot and won 1000 yard matches with them, but it doesn't mean that's a good idea. I the official military doctrine says 500-600 yards? In practice, over 300 yards its trajectory gets to be very rainbow like, though a properly calibrated ammo/bdc-reticule combination will take you to 500.

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I can't tell you what to buy but I can tell you what is spotty.

 

I bought two Millet DMS-1 scopes. The first one I had was OK(maybe) so I bought a second one for Kimber.

 

Kimber's was fine but I found the first one was not as bright(light up reticle) as the second one.

 

So, I returned the first one. They took it back with me paying for shipping and service charge.

 

The returned scope was OK but when you put the caps on the turrets it sometime turned the turret.

 

They are made in China and quality is hit and miss. No more Millet for me.

 

I recently went with Sightron and I'm very happy.

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I can recommend Meopta Meostar 1-4 K-Dot. It is a true 1X and on that setting it works great for close up shooting with both eyes open with rapid transitions. At X4 magnification you can easily engage IPSC silhouettes at 350 yards. The glass is crystal clear and bright. Reticle illumination is strong enough to clearly show up in brightest sunlight and the same time it stays sharp on all power settings. The scope does not have a built in BDC as such but the reticle configuration gives you the ability to both range the targets and figure out hold overs. It is not a cheap scope. With a LaRue mount you are probably looking at around $900-950. It is also not a small scope - either in weight on in dimensions. But in its price range it is very hard to beat so naturally it is one of the favorites with the 3-gun community.

 

And one more thing. I know quite a few shooters who have these scopes (myself included) and none of us ever had an issue with it. However nothing is perfect and one shooter I know had a Meopta go bad on him during the West point match a week ago. Looks like an internal screw came loose and the scope would not hold zero. The shooter called Meopta and had a brand new scope two days later. He was shooting with his brand new scope already zeroed at yesterday's NY state rifle match.

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I can't tell you what to buy but I can tell you what is spotty.

 

I bought two Millet DMS-1 scopes.

 

I went with this scope as a Meopta substitute for my .22 upper (I wish I could afford another . I did it after playing with Vlad's a little so I knew what I was getting. It is darker than Meopta, field of view is a bit narrower and I think the eye relief is not as generous. It obviously does not have the same exit pupil size as demonstrated by the reduced brightness, but it also forces a very precise cheek weld for Millet while Meopta gives me more leeway - which is not a bad feature in a training scope. I knew before buying that the illumination on the reticle was not bright enough to work in daylight - but since its primary (and only) application is for training at the indoor range, it did not bother me. Can not speak to its durability since it does not get much knocking about. Overall I have no complaints. Millet delivers what I need from it. But my requirements for it are very modest.

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I went with this scope as a Meopta substitute for my .22 upper (I wish I could afford another . I did it after playing with Vlad's a little so I knew what I was getting. It is darker than Meopta, field of view is a bit narrower and I think the eye relief is not as generous. It obviously does not have the same exit pupil size as demonstrated by the reduced brightness, but it also forces a very precise cheek weld for Millet while Meopta gives me more leeway - which is not a bad feature in a training scope. I knew before buying that the illumination on the reticle was not bright enough to work in daylight - but since its primary (and only) application is for training at the indoor range, it did not bother me. Can not speak to its durability since it does not get much knocking about. Overall I have no complaints. Millet delivers what I need from it. But my requirements for it are very modest.

 

 

Like I said between three Millet scopes quality varied.

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Well...since cold shot hasnt weighed in with further clarification, Im going to continue with my assumptions. Since its a 20" AR and he stated mid/long range I am going to make the assumption that he is looking for a little more precision than minute of man. Also since he specifically did not mention close range I am going to assume he is not looking to "multi roll" his rifle. In this catagory a Nighforce 2.5X10 is an excellent option.

 

NJMike, this assumption is what drove me to disagree with the Acog selection in the TA33 catagory. The TA648 has limited usefullness in just about any catagory. Im not a fan of fixed power optics especially in maginifcations above 4x, their scope of usefullness is too narrow. But these of course are my own preferences... especially since I like to try to orient my rifles around 0 to 800 on platforms I use magnified optics on.

 

Optics like the Meopta or the Trijicon TR24 are ok for games I guess. But I do not like that they have no holdover stadia or exposed dials to dial elevation. So when you want greater precision and a longer distance, its much harder with these scopes. Also there are very few optics in this catagory that have daylight usable illumination. An example of the optics that do are the S&B Short dot and the Elcan Specter DR.

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Optics like the Meopta or the Trijicon TR24 are ok for games I guess.

 

As opposed to "serious work" for when SHTF?

 

But I do not like that they have no holdover stadia or exposed dials to dial elevation. So when you want greater precision and a longer distance, its much harder with these scopes.

 

At X4 magnification, Meopta dot is 2moa. From the bottom of the dot to the top of the vertical post is another 2 moa. The post is 13 moa. So the bottom of the post is 16 moa below the center of the dot.

 

This is going to vary slightly depending on the particular load and barrel but with a 50 yard 0

 

At:

100 - 150 yards - top of the dot on target - POI = .5" high. (1 moa = 1 - 1.5" so you are aiming at sub moa)

200yds - top of the dot on target - POI = dead on.

250yds - dot on target - POI = dead on

275yds - bottom of the dot on target - POI = dead on.

300yds - bottom of the dot on target - POI ~= 2.7" low ( 1 moa = 3.1" you are still aiming sub moa)

350yds - top of the post on target - POI ~= "1" low ( 1 moa = 3.7" still sub moa aim)

400yds - top of the post on target - POI ~= 8" low - aim at head, hit chest

450yds - top of the post on target - POI ~= 16" low - aim top of the head, hit chest

500yds - bottom of the post on target - POI ~= 36" high - aim at feet hit abdomen.

 

For ranging:

 

Vertical post fits between the top of the head and the sternum ~= 100 yards

Top of the dot and the top of the post just about bracket the head ~= 200 yards

Torso about the size of the vertical post ~= 300 yards

Full body about the size of the vertical post ~= 500 yards

 

Also there are very few optics in this catagory that have daylight usable illumination. An example of the optics that do are the S&B Short dot and the Elcan Specter DR.

 

Meopta illumination is clearly visible in the brightest sunlight.

 

Being not true 1x S&B is not as good for close range as meopta and offers no obvious advantage at x4. All that for about 3X the cost.

 

Elcan is a nice scope but once again at more than double the cost of the meopta is it really twice the scope?

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Optics like the Meopta or the Trijicon TR24 are ok for games I guess.

 

Kyle Lamb recommended the TR series for serious rifles, if I recall correctly. From what I've read they were quite popular as combat scopes, until the latest models from a bunch of people have come out. Also exposed elevation adjustments seem like a rather bad idea, as they can get out of adjustment. Aimpoints and ACOGs don't have exposed adjustments and they are the predominant military optics. Use the BDC if you need to adjust for range, these aren't meant as long range sniper scopes but for the muzzle to the 300-400 meter range.

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Guys, you are confusing roles. Minute of man vs a precision shot. SHTF is minute of man. the K dot is a minute of man optic. So your comment "As opposed to "serious work" for when SHTF?" makes no sence to me at all. In fact it gives me the impression your not tracking. 2 moa dot is a no go for precision right there. The reason the Mepta and TR are ok for games like 3 gun is because they have VERY few if any truly precision shots. You can love the K dot all you want but if you had to make a 300 yard precision shot, its going to be more luck than anything else, its out of its element. Keep in mind that the premise I am working under is that the OP is on the precision side of the fence.

 

"Meopta illumination is clearly visible in the brightest sunlight."

 

I never said it wasnt. What I said, if you look at the complete context, was there are few optics that are daylight usable AND have holdovers. The Meopta and Trijicon do not.

 

"Being not true 1x S&B is not as good for close range as meopta and offers no obvious advantage at x4. All that for about 3X the cost."

 

This is a silly statement. Offers no advantage for whome? Someone that wants to hit a 10" circle at 50 or 100yds, yeah Id agree to that, but it holds great advantage for someone that wants to hit a precision target at greater distance.

 

"Elcan is a nice scope but once again at more than double the cost of the meopta is it really twice the scope?"

 

Yes it is, for me. But I want an optic I can take the offset 5 yd shot with, flick the lever, and ring the steel at 200 yds with ease. Flick back to 1x and take out all the 50 yd targets engaged on the move.

 

"Kyle Lamb recommended the TR series for serious rifles"

 

It is a good optic, it lacks precision as ive said. If they ever put the TA01 or TA33 H-G ret in that optic it would be truly fantastic. Im baffled why they dont.

 

" exposed elevation adjustments seem like a rather bad idea,"

 

Most optics in this catagory either have locking turrets or pretty stiff turrets. Aimpoints dont because they arent meant for that type of shooting. Acogs dont because they have BDC reticles.

 

So if you have a need for greater precision, the Meopta and the TR are not the best choices in this catagory. When an individual asks me for recomendations that are in the Med to long range catagory, they usually arent talking about "minute of man accurate" optics. It comes down to focus and strengths. The focus and strength of the Meopta and TR is speed on minute of man sized targets at closer ranges. Something like the S&B Short Dot is fantastic that it can do both. Want to make an accurate shot, leave the red dot off and use the mil dot reticle. Want to go fast, turn it to 1x and click on the red glowing orb. If you dont have any interest or need to engage fast and close targets, then something like the Nightforce 2.5X10 is a very good choice.

 

There is one thing you guys need to understand. I have no immotional investment in any of these optics. I simply try and pick the best one for the task at hand. Match the optic to the role. Dont fit the optic you "love" to a role just because you like that optic, performance will suffer.

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Guys, you are confusing roles. Minute of man vs a precision shot.

 

I do not believe there is any confusion on my part. You seem to have some personal definitions like "minute of man" and "precision shot". Those have no meanings except what anyone wants to give them. Please be precise in your definitions.

 

2 moa dot is a no go for precision right there.

 

Fact is most ARs (yes even with the 20" barrel) are not sub MOA or even 1 MOA guns. Certainly not with bulk ammo. And most shooters are not 1 MOA shooters. From what I have seen of the ar15.com crowd in competitions, for all their theorizing about precision shooting, maybe 1 in 10 can reliably put shots on 8 inch steel at 200 yards prone. So all this talk of "precision" and 2 moa dot is just a little funny.

 

So your comment "As opposed to "serious work" for when SHTF?" makes no sence to me at all.

 

You made a statement about some scopes being "OK for games I guess". I simply asked you to clarify what was it that the "serious" scopes were for? Because I know of no more abstract game than bench rest shooting - the ultimate in precision.

 

The reason the Mepta and TR are ok for games like 3 gun is because they have VERY few if any truly precision shots.

 

There you go using that word again. "I do no think it means what you think it means".

 

 

 

I never said it wasnt. What I said, if you look at the complete context, was there are few optics that are daylight usable AND have holdovers. The Meopta and Trijicon do not.

 

I think I clearly explained how to use holdovers on the Meopta out to 500 yards. Just because you do not know how to use something, does not mean that it does not exist.

 

This is a silly statement. Offers no advantage for whome? Someone that wants to hit a 10" circle at 50 or 100yds, yeah Id agree to that, but it holds great advantage for someone that wants to hit a precision target at greater distance.

 

I wonder if you have ever shot a 3-gun match in your life? Because your talk about 10 inch circles at 50 or 100 yards makes me wonder. But like I said before I have seen a lot of "precision shooters" fail to hit an 8" steel at 200 yards in 3-gun matches. Perhaps it was too close or too big a target.

 

 

Yes it is, for me. But I want an optic I can take the offset 5 yd shot with, flick the lever, and ring the steel at 200 yds with ease. Flick back to 1x and take out all the 50 yd targets engaged on the move.

 

Yes, 50 yard targets on the move while doing forward rolls I am sure. OK, this discussion has gotten way too silly for me. I am going to move onto something more rewarding like internet porn. Real masturbation beats virtual any day.

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2 moa dot is a no go for precision right there. The reason the Mepta and TR are ok for games like 3 gun is because they have VERY few if any truly precision shots.

 

Dot size has nothing to do with group size. Ask people who know how to shoot red dots, They can shoot 2moa groups with a 4moa dot, because it turns out you don't aim with the whole dot. A 2moa reticule will let you out shoot your ammo.

 

You can love the K dot all you want but if you had to make a 300 yard precision shot, its going to be more luck than anything else, its out of its element. Keep in mind that the premise I am working under is that the OP is on the precision side of the fence.

 

This is a silly statement. Offers no advantage for whome? Someone that wants to hit a 10" circle at 50 or 100yds, yeah Id agree to that, but it holds great advantage for someone that wants to hit a precision target at greater distance.

 

Not for nothing but 10" steel targets are 300 yards are not uncommon (as Slav and I just shot at this weekend), and thats not from a bench or bipod but from improvised rests over barricades or while hidding under a golf cart out of breath. Slav cleaned them with his k-dot, I had a bit of trouble with a plain red dot but they were still achievable.

 

Yes it is, for me. But I want an optic I can take the offset 5 yd shot with, flick the lever, and ring the steel at 200 yds with ease. Flick back to 1x and take out all the 50 yd targets engaged on the move.

 

You can do all that with a red dot, scopes matter more past 200.

 

 

Most optics in this catagory either have locking turrets or pretty stiff turrets. Aimpoints dont because they arent meant for that type of shooting. Acogs dont because they have BDC reticles.

 

Sorry, but make up your mind. First you said the some of the listed ones are only ok for games because they lack external adjustments, I point out the TWO dominate non-game optics and you dismiss them because they don't need them.

 

So if you have a need for greater precision, the Meopta and the TR are not the best choices in this catagory. When an individual asks me for recomendations that are in the Med to long range catagory, they usually arent talking about "minute of man accurate" optics. It comes down to focus and strengths. The focus and strength of the Meopta and TR is speed on minute of man sized targets at closer ranges. Something like the S&B Short Dot is fantastic that it can do both. Want to make an accurate shot, leave the red dot off and use the mil dot reticle. Want to go fast, turn it to 1x and click on the red glowing orb. If you dont have any interest or need to engage fast and close targets, then something like the Nightforce 2.5X10 is a very good choice.

 

See I think you should match the optic to the shooter first and to the purpose second. Nightforce, Horus, etc are awesome scopes that cost more some people's cars and which most shooters can't and don't take advantage off. Hand a complex BDC like Horus to a someone who doesn't know what scope they want, and you likely to make things worse. Most AR shooters don' understand that a 200 yard zeroed rifle shoots 25 inches low at 400 or have any idea what 25 inches looks like at 400 or undestand first focal plane vs second focal plane reticules and they affect ranging. Sorry, but recommending some those scopes to people who don't know what scope they want for "generic medium range shooting" is wasting their money.

 

You are hard pressed to shoot past 300yards in NJ. An old Tasco 4x Proghorn would work. A 1x-4x scope is damn near ideal. You can shoot just as accurately with lower magnification and for new shooter it is actually easier because they don't hunt the smallest vibration in the reticule and focus on the big things first before moving to shooting between heart beats.

 

My apologies to the OP for the rest of us getting in a conversation that's probably confusing you more. I would recommend to you the best 1x-4x scope you are willing to spend money on. Failing that, buy yourself a 3-9x scope from any decent manufacturer (Leupold, Nikon, etc) because those type of scopes can always be re-purposed later. Do not worry about reticule because at the ranges we can shoot they don't matter.

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You two clutch to what you know with no consideration for what else is out there. You two are stuck in 3 gun land. Good for you, if that is what works for you. But there are other things out there. It doesnt, or shouldnt take a rocket scientist to understand levels of precision. If your running a 2 moa or 4 moa dot, you can only be so precise. A 4 moa dot is covering 8 inches of the target at 200 so how precise can you be? There are getting to be to many points to address. so Ill hit only a few. Minute of man is usually taken to mean you can put rounds center mass on man sized targets usually within 200 yds. I would take tactical precision shooting to mean holding 1.5 moa or less out to significantly greater distance. Benchrest is stacking holes on holes. I dont shoot benchrest so I have no input to offer on that discipline. Nor does it interest me. Not sure why Benchrest was brought up, I dont see the correlation. Your observations on AR accuracy are your own. Mine are different and largely based on what mine can do. Do I shoot federal Gold Medal Match when Im shooting multigun? Hell no, why would I. Its not needed, bulk is accurate enough for that. But when I want to make precision shots from the same rifle, I do.

 

Creating your own holdovers and the laundry list of where to aim IS NOT THE SAME as having BDC stadia matched to a specific bullet drop. Your dickie comment regarding foward rolls accomplished what? The course of fire wasnt soemthing I made up in my head, it was the actual coarse of fire from the last multigun match I shot. 1st target was a triangle at 5 yds. If you didnt know your optic offset, you were not going to hit it. The next target from the same spot was three positions on a barricade on a 100 yd steel plate. Next was to move up and shoot frome a barracade at 75 then 50 then on lateral move.

 

So lets be clear on the dismissal part. I dismissed NOTHING, I only explained the abscence on those optics. I dont feel the need for turrets on an Acog BECAUSE it has a BDC reticle. Get it?

 

I thought I made it clear earlier in this thread but clearly it needs further explaining. I believe the OP is after more precision. I said that from the beginning. I also said that is my own pursuit on certain rifles but my main pursuit is the do it all multi role rifle. I want the rifle that can run and gun AND be precise at greater distance. For me that is the holly grail of rifles.

 

To Slav and Vlad, when you can do this with your K-Dots, let me know, I will go buy one. This is 5 rounds at 100 yds with Corbon factory ammo. No retry's. No mulligans. It was 5 shots, and 5 shots only. Optic was a nightforce. Group measured .346 moa CTC.

 

obr.jpg

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One more thing guys, what have you two run besides the K dot? Not what you read about on the internet, what have you actually used?

 

Heres my list:

 

Aimpoints in EVERY flavor.

Trijicon TR21R

Acog TA01NSN

Acog TA33H-G

Eotech 556.A65

Eotech 553.A65

US Optics SN4 Chevron

US Optics SN4S JPJ1 Ret

US Optics SN3 1.8X10

Elcan Specter DR 1X4

S&B SHort Dot 1x4

US Optics 1.5X6

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Before like Slav I just give up let me try this again. You assume that because we prefer 3 gun that is all we shoot. I can go drag out targets like your from 5-6 years ago when I though shooting tiny groups from a bench was interesting. At some point it becomes an mechanical exercise about best possible handloads and I was spending more time uniforming case necks then actually shooting, it got boring. My point with that is not compare penile sizes but to make the point that you are assuming I am single side shooter. Hell you even assume I own k-dot, which I don't and never said I did.

 

You also assume you that a group needs to be as big as the reticule and your are wrong. I've already explained how you can aim with parts of it, but because you never done you assume its impossible, thats fine. Slav explained how he uses his reticule as a BDC (and similar mechanism can be done for other reticules then the k-dot) but you dismiss it because you prefer a BDC tied to a single damn load which may or may not shoot from your gun the same or god forbid you load your own ammo at a different spec.

 

In any case, I'm done arguing with you. You can assume whatever you want about what we own, shoot, or do, but instead of arguing with our opinions maybe you could focus on what the OP actually asked. I venture to say that recommending $2000 scopes to someone who doesn't know what the different reticules are may be inappropriate.

 

Another bit for original poster, again with apologies about the mess that has nothing to do with you, do not forget the scope mounts. DO NOT spend big bucks on a scope and rifle and then connect the two with $35 rings, you will be disappointed, you will blame the rifle or the scope or yourself for not good reason. Make a sure buy good mounts, I love the Larue ones but depending on your budget they may be a bit to much. On the other hand, you will never regret getting them.

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Vlad, I think you are the one making assumptions. You assume I am disparaging the holdover method described. What I said is it is not the same! That is not a dispersion cast in anyones direction. Its simply that they are different. What I can say is that it is NOT precise enough for me for precision shots. Its fine for combat accuracy but that is not what I always do. I think you and Slav shoot very much the same disciplines I do. But what we do is not of the greatest importance to the OP. As I stated time and again, the way he worded his post gave me a strong imprssion that he wanted more precision and may have no interest in close distance targetes, especially since he didnt mention it. So do you really find a $1200 nighforce to be an unreasonable suggestion given this criteria?

 

A quote from the ops second post in this thread:

"For now, limitation of NJ ranges = 200 yds at Fort Dix but soon enough will find me elsewhere with longer ranges."

 

My fourth post in this thread:

"Well...since cold shot hasnt weighed in with further clarification, Im going to continue with my assumptions. Since its a 20" AR and he stated mid/long range I am going to make the assumption that he is looking for a little more precision than minute of man. Also since he specifically did not mention close range I am going to assume he is not looking to "multi roll" his rifle. In this catagory a Nighforce 2.5X10 is an excellent option."

 

Please indicate to me where I suggested a $2k optic?

 

Look guys, Im not looking to have a pissing contest with either of you. I would not assume anything as to what you have used but I dont see a list so I can only go by what you have talked about. I didnt make the list to further said pissing contest, it was more to point out that I have a fair amount of experience with many optics. This is why many that are on this board have sought my advice specifically on optics. When I spoke of high end optics, I thought I made it clear that these are my preferences. I may shoot my rifles for combat accuracy 90% of the time, however I require it to be capable of precision accuracy. The rifle AND the optic have to be capable. K Dots, TR's and frankly even the Elcan Specter lacked the ability for precision for me. The one I found unique was the S&B because when the dot is off, you have a nice precise reticle. Turn it on and you have a big fat red dot thats daylight usable. Best bargain in this catagory, 800 bucks gets you an SWFA SS 1X4 with a unique retical. Looks very promising. If S$B fixes the eye relief on their 1.1X8 Short dot, I will likely buy one of those next. But the pre production unit I played with had way to unforgiving an eye box!

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Look Slav, Im going to give it one last go to set it on the right track. Braggert windbag, look elsewhere, it aint me. Its simple really. You can only talk about optics by actually using them. Ive used a lot of optics, its part of my JOB! As I said before but doubt you read, the list wasnt a pissing contest, it was to illustrate a spectrum of optics I can speak to. And all but two in that list are personally owned. If I listed everything we have at the shop....people would be put to sleep. I only listed two shop pieces because I have used them enough to include them. The thing I think you are also missing is the time I have given to help MANY here and elsewhere on the topic of optics. The FACT is I have recomended the TR24 MANY times here when the criteria was right for it. I have recomended the K dot elsewhere for the same reasons. But of its going to boil down to if the K dot can be as precise as the scopes I mention for the type of shooting they are intended for, we are never going to agree. I believe Jerry Miculek (who came in 3rd at 2010 Ft Benning 3 gun) uses a US Optics scope BTW.

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Shane you are missing the more crucial point because you are caught up in brands. You are recommending expensive scopes for someone who likely doesn't have much experience. As I've been trying to say all along, match the scope to the shooter not to what you like. He is much better off buying the $400 scope which includes a burris mount that he linked to earlier and spending his money on ammunition to practice with then spending all his money on a scope that he will likely never use. Neither Slav nor I are saying the scopes you recommend are BAD scopes, they are just way to much of a scope for most ARs.

 

Cold Shot, I'm actually curious if your rifle has the military hand guards or free floated hand guards, because that just makes the to much scope issue a bit worse.

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