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Philadelphia Police Threaten To Kill Open Carrier

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Welcome to the latest installment of TOP DOWN, BOTTOM UP, AND INSIDE OUT

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I'm really torn about this kind of stuff. On one hand, I think the OP is just looking for a situation. On the other, if he's in the right, there shouldn't be a situation.

 

Personally, I try to avoid situations. I manage to get the Auto Zone and back home without drama.

 

 

The Guy seemed genuinely cool and the police officer seemed genuinely concerned about the OC and sleeping in his bed that night.

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I'm really torn about this kind of stuff. On one hand, I think the OP is just looking for a situation. On the other, if he's in the right, there shouldn't be a situation.

 

Personally, I try to avoid situations. I manage to get the Auto Zone and back home without drama.

 

 

The Guy seemed genuinely cool and the police officer seemed genuinely concerned about the OC and sleeping in his bed that night.

 

 

+1. The guy was absolutely looking for a situation. However the LEO were out of line. In both cases.... epic fail.

 

the OP, while he is in the right, he is just a righteous idiot.

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OC is not as common as say AZ so most police don't encounter it. They also may not know it's legal.

 

 

Keep in mind, unless you have a CCW, you cannot open carry in Philly. Why you would want to OC in Philly is a whole different issue. :superstition:

 

 

Btw, a better post about him getting stopped again a bit later in his town.

 

http://forum.pafoa.org/open-carry-144/93236-had-sit-down-chief-lansdale-police.html

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Call me Francis but I think this just gives foundation to enact further gun control laws. Just carry concealed and no one knows unless they need to know. Carry open and the police are going to ask questions. It's common sense. Win the battle; lose the war.

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I listened to the audio. I didn't hear thugs. I heard genuine confusion. I heard the cops saying, "I'm not giving you the benefit of the doubt even if you're right. I'm in charge and I'm not getting shot. IF anyone gets shot it will be the civilian. I've been cop for years and never seen anyone OC. You must be trying to test me or you're looking for trouble."

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I listened to the audio. I didn't hear thugs. I heard genuine confusion. I heard the cops saying, "I'm not giving you the benefit of the doubt even if you're right. I'm in charge and I'm not getting shot. IF anyone gets shot it will be the civilian. I've been cop for years and never seen anyone OC. You must be trying to test me or you're looking for trouble."

 

That's the kind of statement that will cause this officer to not come home some day.

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I am still amazed that 2a committed folks still think OC is a good idea in certain areas. This is a form of protest and a full expression on ones rights, and the police are not always the ones that need education. But local granny seeing someone walking down the street strapped is going to call the cops. And that cop is going to question you with little to no compassion for the expression of your rights at that moment BECAUSE he would prefer not to have holes created in him. You have the RIGHT by law to OC, other people have the right to call LEO and report you.

 

Yes these cops acted in a less then copacetic way, but you have a person, strapped, ignoring your commands. These cops dont know if this guy is just expressing his rights, or experiencing some sort of zombie invasion fantasy. Same thing is going to happen with a man with a knife. These guys have no idea what the OC subject is doing. Would a cop in Atlanta, St Louis, San Francisco or Seatle have acted the same way, prob not a impolitely. But that is the beauty of the northeast, our collective ability to be use the F bomb while attempting to be polite.

 

Go practice your OC rights out west, ranches, farms, hunting prop, boats , what ever..... Lansdale? NE Philly? It is just provocative, confrontational, dangerous, irresponsible, self-centered and down right stupid.

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Baba... I am all for protest, peaceful and not. And I dont this is totally unneccessary, I questions this guys motives and judgment.

 

And the problem is cops nowadays are over worked, under paid and stretched thin. He could have been shot, and it would have ruined more then just one life. Being shot for an expression of your rights, seems a little extreme to me.

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Baba... I am all for protest, peaceful and not. And I dont this is totally unneccessary, I questions this guys motives and judgment.

 

And the problem is cops nowadays are over worked, under paid and stretched thin. He could have been shot, and it would have ruined more then just one life. Being shot for an expression of your rights, seems a little extreme to me.

 

 

And the problem is cops nowadays are over worked, under paid and stretched thin.

 

In some places you are correct. In a lot of places absolutely not. I live on the shore and there are plenty of towns down here where they are not overworked and certainly not underpaid.

 

Being shot for an expression of your rights, seems a little extreme to me

 

Tell that to all the people in the military and the people who died in fighting to found the USA. I think they would disagree.

 

 

Maybe everyone thinks he is looking for a problem because he was carrying a recorder? It seems a lot of people are doing that these days. I have seen a few cop type shows where the people involved are filming the cops and camera crew right back with Flip video cameras.

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The OP screwed up, he should have just complied and it would have been over much sooner.. The cop is in charge and you need to listen to him.

 

Did this guy take a ccw course to get his license or do you not have too in PA ?

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SO am I legally allowed to carry a recorder on me and record conversations with people? I thought this was illegal unless you notified them. I can't believe they let him record the whole situation.

 

my understanding is that as long as one party in the conversation knows, then it's ok. IE you can have a conversation with me and you can record it knowingly, I don't have to know. that's how they nailed Acorn...

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SO am I legally allowed to carry a recorder on me and record conversations with people? I thought this was illegal unless you notified them. I can't believe they let him record the whole situation.

 

NJ is a single party consent state. This means you can legally record anything you wish that isn't specifically prohibited as long as you are one of the parties being recorded.

So, yes, you can carry a recorder on you and can record anyone you wish, including your Boss, HR, whatever. This isn't to say they can't fire you for it, but you would be in no legal trouble.

 

PA is a two party consent state. You can't record anyone without their knowledge. There are exemptions for public places where no expectation of privacy exists.

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I think OC is one of the worst ideas ever. Some gangbanger wants a gun? Sneaks up behind you and hits you over the head with a bat. Done. I think it attracts more attention from BOTH cops and criminals.

 

So all a gangbanger would have to do is walk up behind a cop and hit him over the head to get a gun then. We either need to make our cops carry concealed or make it mandatory for them to wear helmets at all times! :icon_mrgreen:

 

OC is not a bad idea in my opinion. If you are going ot OC tough be friendly to the cops who question you. If it is uncommon for OC to happen in your area you have to just keep doing it until it is common, which means you have to put up with a lot of bs until then. In the end it would be worth it to not have to hide in the shadows and exercise ones Rights.

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Let me say up front that I would never OC, but for those that wish to, it is their right (in PA). Most of the responses, on this board, are pretty much what I'd expect from citizens of NJ who have been conditioned to equate guns with evil doings. Before you all jump down my throat, I'm speaking of sub-conciously. I, too, don't think it's a good idea, but one that some people embrace and not necessarily just to make a point. I think that you will also find that most OCer's are aware of the security issues with OC and usually use some type of level i or II secure holster.

 

OK, the main point for my response is the point that most people seem to have missed. The police had no RAS (that's Reasonable Articulable Suspicion - a lesser degree of Probable Cause) to stop this OC in the first place, let alone treat him as they did. He was engaged in a lawful activity and there was no indication of any kind that he was doing something illegal. You can't just stop someone, detain and question them, on a whim (regardless of what Mayor Nutter thinks) - you have to be able to reasonably articulate your suspicion of what he was doing illegally. Since open carrying a gun is legal, in the absence of any wrongdoing, they had no reason to stop him. MWAG callers should be (and in most cases outside of Philly are) asked what the MWAG is doing - if he is simply walking down the street, they are informed that is perfectly legal - end of call, no LE involvement.

 

While we can't reasonably expect LE to know every law, it is clear that there must have been a blatant disregard for the training the Phila PD received specific to this issue. The MPOTEC training update included specifics about this very topic. To take it one step further, because of a previous incident, with this same carrier, the Phila PD issued its own internal memo about the legality of open carry (with an LTCF within Philly). What is even more apalling is that in the amount of time this person was detained (I believe the two You Tube postings totalled more than 30 minutes) the officers on the scene - including supervisors - could find no one that knew the law regarding open carry.

 

While I don't agree with the OC philosophy, I support his choice to do so and give him kudos for having the cajones to stand up for what he believes in, especially in the face of this totally debauched police action.

 

JMHO

 

Adios,

 

Pizza Bob

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This situation is where gun rights are very similar to gay rights.

 

I know OC is stupid... about just as stupid as two gays making out in public. But both serve a role: "we're here, we're armed, get used to it"

 

The whole point behind it is to make things normal. You OC to show people you have a right and you're going to exercise it. Not because it's a tactically beneficial choice. I hate when my fellow gun right peeps get all pissy when these things go awry, but whatever. Revolutions aren't won by being nice and concealed and away from the public eye. You gotta get in people's faces and challenge their misconceptions.

 

An aside, this officer should be fired and sued. It's his responsibility to know the laws he has to enforce. OC is legal in PA, he should know that. Now if his dept. gets sued, you'll be sure a corrective action will be improved firearms law education.

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This situation is where gun rights are very similar to gay rights.

 

I know OC is stupid... about just as stupid as two gays making out in public. But both serve a role: "we're here, we're armed, get used to it"

 

The whole point behind it is to make things normal. You OC to show people you have a right and you're going to exercise it. Not because it's a tactically beneficial choice. I hate when my fellow gun right peeps get all pissy when these things go awry, but whatever. Revolutions aren't won by being nice and concealed and away from the public eye. You gotta get in people's faces and challenge their misconceptions.

 

An aside, this officer should be fired and sued. It's his responsibility to know the laws he has to enforce. OC is legal in PA, he should know that. Now if his dept. gets sued, you'll be sure a corrective action will be improved firearms law education.

 

2 gays making out in public is no different then 2 straight people who make out in public. Granted I don't like to see either of them... Well unless the 2 chicks are hot.

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