BigHayden

Legal hypothetical

64 posts in this topic

The purpose of this thread is to spark some debate and get peoples' minds moving. The guys over at CalGuns are always coming up with interesting ways to circumvent the "stoopid" laws in CA while remaining 100% legal, i.e. the bullet button. My hypothetical has nothing to do with that, but more of a "could they charge you with XYZ if..."

 

BB guns are classified as firearms in PRNJ. Long gun BB guns are no big deal, especially if you already have an FPID, but BB pistols require a HPP. The rest of the country treats BB guns as toys, and require no ID to purchase. Since HPPs are permits to purchase, and not to own, is there anything NJ can charge you with if you purchase a BB pistol in PA and bring it here to NJ?

 

I'll throw it out there that I don't think there's a damn thing they could do about it, unless they catch you transporting it home. The trick is getting it home legally. This is a new take on the whole "transportation exceptions" in NJ firearms laws and FOPA will not protect you, since BB pistols are not firearms. The only way you'd be legal to transport it, and fall under the exceptions, would be if you are moving to NJ from out of state. I also believe if you shipped it to yourself, you'd be legal. NJ law bars you from taking possession of it without an HPP, but if you shipped it to yourself, you already had possession (Federal laws on firearms allow you to ship handguns to yourself without having to go through an FFL, so there is precedence), so you're not breaking NJ law. I don't believe there are any laws/rules against shipping BB guns through the major carriers (UPS, FedEx, USPS even?).

 

 

Thoughts? Agree, disagree?

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good topic,,cause I have similiar thoughts...1) since a HG BB gun requires a permit here it would be illegal to knowingly go over the border to buy one cause it wont be legal here..shipping it to yourself could be hit or miss if the carrier discovers the package contains a HG..the risk of it being reported to the police is a concern, but I've had airsoft HG shipped so who knows...2) as far as long gun BB..I question why in nj you can buy a spring powered airsoft pistol or rifle capable of over 400 fps? but not a 300? fps daisy red ryder w/o an FID...lots of people make the trip and buy what they want,,so you I have to ask myself..do i feel lucky?... now,if I were visiting a friend or relative in Pa and he gives me a BB HG..I would bring it home.....

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good topic,,cause I have similiar thoughts...1) since a HG BB gun requires a permit here it would be illegal to knowingly go over the border to buy one cause it wont be legal here..shipping it to yourself could be hit or miss if the carrier discovers the package contains a HG..the risk of it being reported to the police is a concern, but I've had airsoft HG shipped so who knows...2) as far as long gun BB..I question why in nj you can buy a spring powered airsoft pistol or rifle capable of over 400 fps? but not a 300? fps daisy red ryder w/o an FID...lots of people make the trip and buy what they want,,so you I have to ask myself..do i feel lucky?... now,if I were visiting a friend or relative in Pa and he gives me a that BB HG..I would bring it home.....

Many years ago when I first moved to New Jersey from NYC,I bought a pellet pistol with a shoulder stock to eliminate some squirrels who had a habit of chewing through my telephone wires and using my attic as a small woodland animal bordello.At that time I never considered it to be a firearm to be regulated by any state agency, It has also traveled by car several times to the Keys and back on vacations to participate in our annual beer bottle bulls eye competitions. In retrospect, what would have happened if stopped on the NJ turnpike?

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BB/Pellet rifles are defined as rifle firearms in NJ

 

BB/Pellet handguns are defined as handgun firearms in NJ

 

All applicable firearms for both apply.

 

Airsoft and Paintball guns are not defined as firearms in NJ

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BB/Pellet rifles are defined as rifle firearms in NJ

 

BB/Pellet handguns are defined as handgun firearms in NJ

 

All applicable firearms for both apply.

 

Airsoft and Paintball guns are not defined as firearms in NJ

 

If I buy a BB pistol in PA (a legal transaction) and ship it to my home (also legal, since BB pistols are NOT firearms by definition, and remain legal to ship), I'm not "taking posession" of it in NJ, so I don't need a HPP for it. I argue that I haven't broken any laws, anywhere.

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If you are shipping it to your home in NJ, once you receive the package you have taken possession.

 

Not true. If I ship it to myself, I had possession before I entered the state. Take this example. Say I'm driving to Alaska. I'm legal to have a handgun here, and I'm legal to have a handgun in AK, but I can't drive through Canada with it. I can ship that gun to myself in AK and it's perfectly legal, since, according to firearms laws (and the ATF) I already owned the gun and "possessed" it in NJ, so there's no transfer of ownership.

 

Go back to that case of the guy who lived in Arizona (was a resident there and in NJ...) and he bought a gun there. It was legal for him to bring it back to NJ when he was traveling between his residences, but he didn't need a HPP to go with it. Same would hold true for a BB pistol. If I buy it legally somewhere else, it's mine by all accounts. Then the question becomes transporting it legally home. I say you can't do it if you aren't actually moving from another state to NJ (the moving exception) or if you don't have dual residences (like the guy from AZ). Since BB pistols aren't firearms in federal law, FOPA doesn't protect you, but that also makes it legal to ship it to yourself without overnighting it.

 

The more I argue this point, the more I think it's perfectly legal.

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The more I argue this point, the more I think it's perfectly legal.

 

I will be sure to refer anyone I stumble upon that runs afoul of the law re: BB Handguns to Big Hayden Esq so that you can argue your opinion in a court of law. :thsmiley_deadhorse:

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I will be sure to refer anyone I stumble upon that runs afoul of the law re: BB Handguns to Big Hayden Esq so that you can argue your opinion in a court of law. :thsmiley_deadhorse:

This whole issue is just one big =@ waiting to go off.

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If a bb pistol is considered a handgun in NJ then I really don't think you can buy one in Pa and ship it or bring it into NJ to your residence. You cannot buy a 9mm pistol in PA and just ship it or bring it to NJ. So why would a bb pistol be any different?

 

If you lived in PA, bought the bb pistol there, then moved to NJ and brought it with you I think that would be ok.

 

As pizza bob says, just my humble opinion.

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If a bb pistol is considered a handgun in NJ then I really don't think you can buy one in Pa and ship it or bring it into NJ to your residence. You cannot buy a 9mm pistol in PA and just ship it or bring it to NJ. So why would a bb pistol be any different?

 

If you lived in PA, bought the bb pistol there, then moved to NJ and brought it with you I think that would be ok.

 

As pizza bob says, just my humble opinion.

Exactly..even though there isnt a FEDERAL Violation transporting a Bb/pellet gun, it is still Prohibited by NJ STATE Law. Much like with the Magazine question and the "Rebuild Kits". Is it soemthing that is going to get you in trouble??? PROBABLY not, and if it does then it will be as an adjunct to something else....Unless of course you are using that BB/Pellet pistol in a manner that will bring you to the Attention of someone.

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How rediculous is this whole thread? We should not even have to have this discussion. Who are the morons that passed the legislation that defined BB guns as firearms? You gotta be f-ing kidding me!

 

I have a BB gun pistol that was given to me by my father 35 years ago. Now, after reading on this forum, I find that I am illegaly in possession of a firearm. So, the law states that I must get a NJFID card and a P2P for this BB gun.

 

Well, I actually have applied for both, but there is no way in hell I am going to waste a P2P that I may wait 3 months (or longer) to get to "transfer" ownership of that BB gun to me. I don't use it, haven't touched it in 20 years. I'll just have to hide it so I don't get caught with it. This state is run so bass-ackwards it simply amazes me to no end.

 

Sorry, rant-over.

 

Do yourself a favor, don't try to skirt the law, it won't be worth it.

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How rediculous is this whole thread? We should not even have to have this discussion. Who are the morons that passed the legislation that defined BB guns as firearms? You gotta be f-ing kidding me!

 

I have a BB gun pistol that was given to me by my father 35 years ago. Now, after reading on this forum, I find that I am illegaly in possession of a firearm. So, the law states that I must get a NJFID card and a P2P for this BB gun.

 

Well, I actually have applied for both, but there is no way in hell I am going to waste a P2P that I may wait 3 months (or longer) to get to "transfer" ownership of that BB gun to me. I don't use it, haven't touched it in 20 years. I'll just have to hide it so I don't get caught with it. This state is run so bass-ackwards it simply amazes me to no end.

 

Sorry, rant-over.

 

Do yourself a favor, don't try to skirt the law, it won't be worth it.

 

agree

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How rediculous is this whole thread? We should not even have to have this discussion. Who are the morons that passed the legislation that defined BB guns as firearms? You gotta be f-ing kidding me!

 

I have a BB gun pistol that was given to me by my father 35 years ago. Now, after reading on this forum, I find that I am illegaly in possession of a firearm. So, the law states that I must get a NJFID card and a P2P for this BB gun.

 

Well, I actually have applied for both, but there is no way in hell I am going to waste a P2P that I may wait 3 months (or longer) to get to "transfer" ownership of that BB gun to me. I don't use it, haven't touched it in 20 years. I'll just have to hide it so I don't get caught with it. This state is run so bass-ackwards it simply amazes me to no end.

 

Sorry, rant-over.

 

Do yourself a favor, don't try to skirt the law, it won't be worth it.

I hope you don't have a slingshot, too. That's considered an illegal arsenal here in Fortress New Jersey.

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If a bb pistol is considered a handgun in NJ then I really don't think you can buy one in Pa and ship it or bring it into NJ to your residence. You cannot buy a 9mm pistol in PA and just ship it or bring it to NJ. So why would a bb pistol be any different?

 

I don't know if it's any different under NJ law, but under federal law you cannot purchase a handgun outside of your state of residence without the participation of an FFL in your home state.

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IMO, purchasing a BB pistol in PA is legal either from a dealer or from a nonlicense, because it is not a firearm. No Federal or State law prevents the purchase or possession. Crossing into NJ with that BB pistol makes the pistol a firearm per NJ law. No permit is required to OWN this BB pistol in NJ. The permit is for PURCHASE within the state only. What law have you broken?

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IMO, purchasing a BB pistol in PA is legal either from a dealer or from a nonlicense, because it is not a firearm. No Federal or State law prevents the purchase or possession. Crossing into NJ with that BB pistol makes the pistol a firearm per NJ law. No permit is required to OWN this BB pistol in NJ. The permit is for PURCHASE within the state only. What law have you broken?

+1

 

Lets look at it this way. If you acquire a (real) handgun legally in another state, when you lived there or though inheritance, you are legally allowed to bring it back to NJ without permits. If it is 100% legal to purchase air handguns in another state (under federal and that state's law), why would it be illegal to bring it back to NJ? I don't think it is. I have not heard of a NJ law that forbids NJ residents from buying air guns out of state. You acquired the air pistol legally. Transporting it back shouldn't violate the law either since you are coming from a place of purchase to your house - a covered exemption under NJ law.

 

The same could be said for antiques and black powder handguns.

 

Shipping an air pistol into NJ could be construed as taking possession in NJ and could violate the law if you didn't buy it in person first in another state.

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IMO, purchasing a BB pistol in PA is legal either from a dealer or from a nonlicense, because it is not a firearm. No Federal or State law prevents the purchase or possession. Crossing into NJ with that BB pistol makes the pistol a firearm per NJ law. No permit is required to OWN this BB pistol in NJ. The permit is for PURCHASE within the state only. What law have you broken?

 

I agree with PK90 on this. Too many people responding to the OP are exporting NJ law to another state. It doesn't work that way.

 

it is still Prohibited by NJ STATE Law

 

The gun isn't prohibited. It is illegal to transfer one in NJ without a pistol permit.

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Legally, State and Federal laws are bashing into each other here. Federal law states that BB/pellet guns are not defined as firearms. NJ law says they are.

 

Federal law for firearm transfers dictate that the dealer/FFL follows the purchaser's resident state laws, i.e. buying a pistol in PA technically requires a NJ PPP. That being said, federal law does not recognize bb/pellet guns as firearms and fall outside of these rules. So herein lies the issue and conflict.

 

If you are illegally in possession of a pellet pistol in NJ, NJ can charge you as illegal possession of a handgun according to how the current statutes are written. Then you will have to sort it out in court, and bring federal laws into the mix as part of your defense regarding how pellet pistols are not to be defined as firearms by the states. IMO, this is another legal battle that has to take place in order to fix NJ's broken unconstitutional and federal-law breaking firearms statutes. For now, they treat it on a case by case basis. Whoever wants to play that game, more power to them. This is part of the big picture of how the state wants it, the ability to arrest and charge anyone at anytime if they are in posession of a "firearm", then let the justice system sort out whether it was legal and following an allowed exemption.

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Federal law for firearm transfers dictate that the dealer/FFL follows the purchaser's resident state laws
,

So buy it at Walmart.

 

If you are illegally in possession of a pellet pistol in NJ, NJ can charge you as illegal possession of a handgun according to how the current statutes are written.

How is the posession illegal? One does not need a permit to OWN or TRANSPORT the BB pistol.

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Federal law for firearm transfers dictate that the dealer/FFL follows the purchaser's resident state laws,

 

In most of the US a BB or pellet pistol is not a fireram. NJ considers it a firearm. NJ law stops at NJ's borders. Cabela's will sell you a BB or pellet pistol or a blackpowder pistol because they are not firearms under federal or state law in PA. Cabela's FFL has nothing to do withselling you a BB gun or blackpowder gun. They may as well be selling you beef jerky.

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Legally, State and Federal laws are bashing into each other here. Federal law states that BB/pellet guns are not defined as firearms. NJ law says they are.

 

Federal law for firearm transfers dictate that the dealer/FFL follows the purchaser's resident state laws, i.e. buying a pistol in PA technically requires a NJ PPP. That being said, federal law does not recognize bb/pellet guns as firearms and fall outside of these rules. So herein lies the issue and conflict.

 

If you are illegally in possession of a pellet pistol in NJ, NJ can charge you as illegal possession of a handgun according to how the current statutes are written. Then you will have to sort it out in court, and bring federal laws into the mix as part of your defense regarding how pellet pistols are not to be defined as firearms by the states. IMO, this is another legal battle that has to take place in order to fix NJ's broken unconstitutional and federal-law breaking firearms statutes. For now, they treat it on a case by case basis. Whoever wants to play that game, more power to them. This is part of the big picture of how the state wants it, the ability to arrest and charge anyone at anytime if they are in posession of a "firearm", then let the justice system sort out whether it was legal and following an allowed exemption.

 

Agree 100%. But the illegal possession charge has an exemption for your home. Shipping it to yourself from another state gets it to your home without breaking ANY law, NJ or otherwise. There is no "bashing" of state and federal laws. It's following them to the letter. As a NJ resident, I have to have a HPP for each handgun transferred to me in the state. If I buy a handgun (a real one) in PA, it has to be shipped to an FFL in NJ. The PA dealer doesn't give a sh*t if I have a permit or not; that's the NJ FFL's problem. It's just like buying a gun off of gunbroker.com. I don't have to prove that I have an HPP in NJ for it. They sell it to me and ship it. I can't take possession of it (i.e. transfer) without said HPP, but that all gets handled in NJ.

 

Federal law says BB guns are not firearms, period. NJ law technically runs afoul of that statute, but that's another issue. In every other state, it's not a firearm so the "dealer" doesn't have to follow the laws of the purchaser's state. It's not a regulated item. Once I own it, it's mine. I don't need a permit to transfer it to me because it's mine. I agree that you can't drive it back to your house from another state. We've argued this point endlessly regarding bringing a pistol to another state to carry it for self defense. The general consensus is that FOPA will protect you, or it's plain illegal. Nobody has made any other arguments over the legality. In this case, FOPA will not protect you, since BB guns are not firearms in the fed's mind. So that leaves "it's plain illegal". But, NJ has no jurisdiction over the mail and common carriers. We all agree that we can order handgun ammo online and have it shipped to our homes without showing an FPID (some places do require this, like Midway USA, but I believe they are hyper-cautious), even though NJ requires the seller to log the purchase and see a valid FPID. There are no regulations in the common carriers for BB guns, as far as I know (someone will correct me, I have faith in the naysayers...) so it would be perfectly legal for me to ship a BB gun to myself. I will add the caveat that nobody else can ship me a BB gun, as this would be a "transfer" in NJ, but if I legally own it and ship it to myself, there's no law broken.

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I agree that you can't drive it back to your house from another state.

 

I don't. If it's a Long Pellet gun, and you have a Purchaser ID, it's completely legal to carry around in your trunk, just like a shotgun.

 

If it's a Hand Pellet Gun, it needs to fall under the same basic exemptions, Range to Home, Gunstore to Home, etc. You're on your way home with a legally purchased firearm.

 

ANY firearm purchased legally in a different state is legal in NJ, assault statutes/AOW/SBR/NFA aside.

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