Can gun games get you killed?

[SSlav 14]

Slav, the only idiocy seems to be when you join the conversation. At least I get an honest sense from Vlad that he is giving consideration to the discussions presented. So what Rank is Athena Lee who was 2002 and 2007 USPSA National Open Women's Champion? And REMEMBER SLAV the comments about the stress of the show vs competition stress was from the competitors themselves, not something I pulled out of thin air! Im talking , as were thay, about their shooting performance on the show.

 

Atheena Lee is a Master class shooter who came in 65th overall in last year's nationals. Not taking anything away from her accomplishments which are greater than mine, but she is by far not a Grand Master. She is also a tiny girl that was clearly handicapped when it came to the elimination challenge.

 

Vlad has infinitely more patience than I when it comes to entertaining stupidity. In my experience people who tend to pontificate the most about non-tacticoolness of gun games are the same ones who get their rear end handed to them at a match and then feel the need to re-establish the lost macho self-image. Thus it is not enough to say that gun games do not provide combat training - something that nobody in the sport will ever argue. So it is not "I am not skilled enough to play this game" , its "the game sucks and is bad for you".

 

Regardless there are enough volunteers for the proposed Pepsi challenge. So lets play.

[Tosser 61]

Vlad: I will order more green gas for the airsoft gun I have and see if i can wrangle up one or two more. I'll be in touch to set up a date. And I don't know where this Force of Force turned into a challenge/competition... I clearly stated that the tactics used in USPSA will get you killed if in a gun fight. It's proven you fall back to your training/experience in situations of high stress. So lets put it to a test.

[Shane45 807]

Vlad, the people that may read this thread is entirely my motivation for hashing this out. I would say I met you half way LOOONG ago. I agreed on weapons handling, speed, accuracy... I even went so far to say that I would prefer a USPSA competitor at my side over someone that just shoots static targets on a square range, in a bad situation. Hell even shooting cowboy action is better than not competing at all. And to be clear, Im not picking only on USPSA as I said somehwere in these threads IDPA aint perfect either, I just find less muscle memory issues there. Probably one of the BIGGEST problems with gun games is there is really no way to induce stress without a clock. But always operating under the clock may cause you to make a mistake in real life too by leaving safe cover to quickly before you have assesed all the threats around you. I have 100% maintained in all my statements that it is a concern and a caution. And I believe it to be true just from my own simple experiences of getting "COVER" penalties out the ying yang until I got enough IDPA time under my belt to quell a lot of my IPSC gross motor skill habbits. Or the time I decided to switch to my XCR at a 3 gun match and lost time because I kept slapping the side of the rifle to release the bolt, forgetting the bolt release is under the trigger, because I did it so many times on my AR. So to me, I absolutely believe its true.

 

The TEST would be effective if you actually felt under stress and it was unplanned. I think the test is problematic because you have plenty of time to mentally prepare and you will be acutely aware of what not to do. BUT it may still be revealing. What I actually had in mind was some experiments and since we have people together and the equipment it would seem a real shame to not have a training oppurtunity while we were at it.

[tbtrout 141]

I read all 6 pages of this crap hoping it would stop being a my sport is better than your sport pissing match, but it really has not. Unless someone is shooting back at you, you will never induce the amount of stress needed to simulate it. There are things that can not be taught but must be experienced.

 

I can go on about my experience and traing but it would not account for shit as this discussion is more about hurt feelings than anything else right now. Please turn it towards something a bit more substantive.

[SSlav 14]

I must also say that while you may say that "the average shooter will never attend a training class" you may be correct, as there are millions of "shooters", but I would be interested in seeing how many shooters attend training vs how many shooters compete. Are you interested in a bet of how many shooters have competed/how many shooters have attended a training class?

 

I will play in any simulation. However anything involving contact will likely test non-shooting skills that I gained outside of USPSA.

 

As for taking classes. A class can introduce you to some concepts and if it a good one - training methodologies. A class or any number of them will not make you proficient in any of the techniques that it introduces. That proficiency requires mind numbing repetition. Most sane people are not going to spend time to practice daily for a situation that will likely never happen. Without the regular repetition anything you learned in a class will evaporate the moment you encounter a stressful situation. Competitions provide an incentive to train. You are no longer training for a day that will likely never come. You are training for a match that is at most a couple of weeks away.

 

A side question. Of those critical of gun games. Which ones have you ever tried? How did you do?

[tbtrout 141]

Holy crap it is up to 7 pages now.

[Joelk 61]

Vlad: I will order more green gas for the airsoft gun I have and see if i can wrangle up one or two more. I'll be in touch to set up a date. And I don't know where this Force of Force turned into a challenge/competition... I clearly stated that the tactics used in USPSA will get you killed if in a gun fight. It's proven you fall back to your training/experience in situations of high stress. So lets put it to a test.

Whatever the game is, I will offer all the airsoft gas and ammo needed, 1 airsoft Glock 19, and 1 Glock 17t(Sims), all of the Simunitions ammo needed, and if we aren't being little bitches, rubber/training knives. If you really want to man up I will bring swine prod (like a cattle prod but shorter) to simulate knife wounds

[SSlav 14]

Unless someone is shooting back at you, you will never induce the amount of stress needed to simulate it. There are things that can not be taught but must be experienced.

 

I do not think anyone is arguing that. The argument is whether gun games are more harmful to your chances of survival than the "alternative". Though nobody has really clearly stated what the "alternative" is. Assuming that for most of us enlisting in the armed forces is out of the question.

[SSlav 14]

Whatever the game is, I will offer all the airsoft gas and ammo needed, 1 airsoft Glock 19, and 1 Glock 17t(Sims), all of the Simunitions ammo needed, and if we aren't being little bitches, rubber/training knives. If you really want to man up I will bring swine prod (like a cattle prod but shorter) to simulate knife wounds

 

What are we going to use to simulate gunshot wounds?

[Pew Pew Plates 358]

wait wait, what happens in two "gun gamers" get into an altercation? do they BOTH get killed by default?!

[Shane45 807]

"Vlad has infinitely more patience than I when it comes to entertaining stupidity. In my experience people who tend to pontificate the most about non-tacticoolness of gun games are the same ones who get their rear end handed to them at a match and then feel the need to re-establish the lost macho self-image. Thus it is not enough to say that gun games do not provide combat training - something that nobody in the sport will ever argue. So it is not "I am not skilled enough to play this game" , its "the game sucks and is bad for you".

 

As usual your off the mark. No one ever said that gun games are a substitute for training. No one made that claim. Skill HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH IT. How can this basic precept keep alluding you? If your remarks are directed at me as I already stated in these discussions I have competed in just about everything except cowboy action!

 

I shot NRA action pistol as my Start. My very frst match I got squadded with Bruce Piatt and Doug Keonig(Im sure you know the names). They were extremely helpfull and coached me through my first match. This hooked me into the competition shooting sports.

 

In the late 90's I was shooting deep into B class territory and did fairly well at the AWARE invitational.

 

I stopped competitive shooting and started building 1911's and designing and manufacturing optics mounts etc etc

 

2010 decided to compete again. Chose IDPA for the afformentioned reasons. Got Marksman classification on my second match. AS I ALREADY STATED, I owe my speed/gun handling to IPSC/USPSA. I took a couple first places in my class after I got past my penalty issues. I usually shoot towards the top in my class. I took 3rd place at my first plate match this past summer. 1st and 2nd were two guys running red dot open class guns. I ran a GM with fixed sights, plain jane 45. I took a couple 1st places at some small 3 gun matches. This winter health issues pulled me back out of competition shooting. I found that I can not compete in the winter.

 

I dont consider myself a great shooter by any stretch. This is not bragging in any way. This is simply to illustrate I am no stranger to gun games. Like I said countless times, there is a value...and a caution. Hopefully you track this time.....

[Joelk 61]

I will play in any simulation. However anything involving contact will likely test non-shooting skills that I gained outside of USPSA.

 

As for taking classes. A class can introduce you to some concepts and if it a good one - training methodologies. A class or any number of them will not make you proficient in any of the techniques that it introduces. That proficiency requires mind numbing repetition. Most sane people are not going to spend time to practice daily for a situation that will likely never happen. Without the regular repetition anything you learned in a class will evaporate the moment you encounter a stressful situation. Competitions provide an incentive to train. You are no longer training for a day that will likely never come. You are training for a match that is at most a couple of weeks away.

 

A side question. Of those critical of gun games. Which ones have you ever tried? How did you do?

For all of you unwilling to "test non-shooting skills" what the F*%k do you think a violent criminal encounter in NJ is going to test?

 

I will agree that a lot of classes in NJ suck, and some are good. At best, as James Yeager says, a class is your down payment on a skill, and it is your responsibility to make the monthly payments after that.

 

As far as what matches I have tried, it has been a variety of IDPA, local steel matches, 3 gun, 2 gun (Tosser's USANA matches), and I've won some, done OK in some, but never finished in the lower half in anything. Like I said before, whatever match the group picks I will play. That said, while I will play your game, it seems that everyone is scrambling to avoid playing my (reality based) game. I must say that all of you worried about my knife/unarmed skills must not know me, as I am one of the most uncoordinated people you have ever met. That said, if we fight I will not quit, and I may take your gun and shoot you with it, not because I have more training/skills than you, but because I want to win whatever the game may be.

[Joelk 61]

What are we going to use to simulate gunshot wounds?

Have you ever been shot with Sims (which I offered)? LE and the Military find it adequate to simulate gunshot wounds in training. If you would rather just use airsoft we can use the honor system, where people say when they are shot. That works just fine in a training scenario, but you can tell me if the competition crowd would honorably say when they were hit?

[Tosser 61]

Have you ever been shot with Sims (which I offered)? LE and the Military find it adequate to simulate gunshot wounds in training. If you would rather just use airsoft we can use the honor system, where people say when they are shot. That works just fine in a training scenario, but you can tell me if the competition crowd would honorably say when they were hit?

 

They have all ready made it clear they plan to "cheat" this "game". I'm ready meet the challenge head on...

[Tosser 61]

Okay pick the day:

 

June 11th

or

June 18th

 

 

1200hrs

[Joelk 61]

Okay pick the day:

 

June 11th

or

June 18th

 

 

1200hrs

I can be available for either date, just let me know a couple weeks ahead of time,

[HuntingPaper 62]

June 18th works for me.

[Vlad G 345]

Neither for for me. On the 11th I have a family event, on the 18th I'm shooting the Team 3gun match in Topton.

 

They have all ready made it clear they plan to "cheat" this "game". I'm ready meet the challenge head on...

 

I made pretty friking clear what I meant by that statement. Don't try twisting what I said.

[Vlad G 345]

Have you ever been shot with Sims (which I offered)? LE and the Military find it adequate to simulate gunshot wounds in training. If you would rather just use airsoft we can use the honor system, where people say when they are shot. That works just fine in a training scenario, but you can tell me if the competition crowd would honorably say when they were hit?

 

Sure, because we are all lairs and cheaters now. At this point my only worry is not if I win or lose, but if it proves anything. I'm suspecting that whatever challenge will be presented at this point will be more of the "We'll show those competition guys!" then actually testing if presumed bad habits acquired in competition are actually going to get me killed. But whatever .. pick a different date please, the ones suggested don't work for me, and I'll show up.

[hd2000fxdl 422]

This is what I don't like, and it serves no purpose other than fun and competition.

 

Ray, it is fun, and I have a lot of it with my limited time shooting it and I shoot like ****, but will say it is a better learning experience than just standing at the range shooting paper, and let me tell you, the way the guy took down that Texas Star, lets just say them ain't easy and I think he only took 6 shots.

 

I hear what you are saying, but from what I have read in this thread are plenty of valid points, but I will tell you, there are a lot of things you can take away as far as experience from shooting USPSA and other disciplines.

 

Now I haven't seen it mentioned, but if anyone really wants to see how they might do in a simulated real situation where there is stress, cover is needed, and there is force in both directions, we could all take a class at GFH who is now doing Simunitions. I think that would be the closest you going to get to really knowing how any of us would react in a stressfull situation without risk of death in a real situation.

 

You know any Zombie School traing facitilies??

 

Harry

[Vlad G 345]

Actually I MIGHT be able to make the 11th, give me a day or two to see if I can move my schedule around. 18th is completely out.

[SSlav 14]

Actually I MIGHT be able to make the 11th, give me a day or two to see if I can move my schedule around. 18th is completely out.

 

18th is out for me for the same reason as you - Topton Team 3-gun.

 

11th I can make.

[SSlav 14]

As usual your off the mark. No one ever said that gun games are a substitute for training. No one made that claim.

 

Indeed, so why are you bringing it up?

 

Skill HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH IT.

 

I suppose we shall know soon.

 

My very frst match I got squadded with Bruce Piatt and Doug Keonig(Im sure you know the names).

 

Was that supposed to be impressive? I can pull out a couple of big names as well that I have shot with. In this sport it is not uncommon.

 

 

2010 decided to compete again. Chose IDPA for the afformentioned reasons.

 

Your reasons are flawed...because...

 

Got Marksman classification on my second match.

 

Shot my first and only IDPA match as a mid-C class shooter. Shot it with a 1911 - which is a gun I never competed with up till that point, with a holster setup I never used before. Practiced reloads with retention the night before the match. Came in second overall in CDP right behind an Expert whom I beat on two stages out of seven. Shooting from cover did not bother me. Shooting on the move did not bother me - I actually shot on the move instead of doing an "IDPA shuffle". Got dinged with three procedurals in the match - one for not bending low enough in RO's opinion, one for engaging two targets that looked equidistant to me in the order other than intended by the course designer, one for dropping an empty mag on the ground with a gun not in a slide lock (difference between life and death in the "real world" I am sure). If not for the tree procedurals would have come in first. So where is that fabled IDPA "real world" advantage that you think is so important? IDPA as a game is no better or worse than USPSA in teaching gun skills. I choose USPSA because - 1. On the local level USPSA matches have a better caliber of shooters and a lot more shooters to measure up against. 2. Higher round counts are more fun and give you more trigger time. 3. Stages are more challenging - more movers, more steel, longer and tighter shots. Thats it.

 

 

 

I dont consider myself a great shooter by any stretch. This is not bragging in any way.

 

I did not see anything worthy of bragging. Most days Vlad and I used to fight it out for the first and second in B-Class Production (until he was stupid enough to move up to A). That is a meaningless fact. A few times I came in first overall in production - another meaningless fact. They are meaningless because without of context of the total number of shooters and the overall level of competition there is no information to be imparted there.

[voodoodaddy 1]

Let's make this happen!!!

 

Tosser, Shane and Joel vs. Vlad, Slav and Myself (why not?)

 

I WANT IN!!!!!

 

BTW. I'm on the gamers side.

[SSlav 14]

For all of you unwilling to "test non-shooting skills" what the F*%k do you think a violent criminal encounter in NJ is going to test?

 

Did I write anywhere that I was unwilling? I simply stated that the skills that would be tested have nothing to do with USPSA. As it happens I actually do have some relevant skills that I would not mind testing. However that has nothing to do with the conversation at hand - bad habits taught in USPSA - which have been summarized as a grand total of two - 1. Not using cover and 2. Dropping mags on the ground. Neither of which are relevant in the case of a knife attack.

 

I will agree that a lot of classes in NJ suck, and some are good. At best, as James Yeager says, a class is your down payment on a skill, and it is your responsibility to make the monthly payments after that.

 

IMHO handgun shooting is an extremely perishable skill. Your "payments" need to be at worst weekly.

 

As far as what matches I have tried, it has been a variety of IDPA, local steel matches, 3 gun, 2 gun (Tosser's USANA matches), and I've won some, done OK in some, but never finished in the lower half in anything.

 

I am not familiar with the specific matches you are writing about. However they are not the larger ones of what is locally available. There is a danger in thinking of yourself as a big fish when you are playing in a small pond. That is the only reason why I travel to some regional matches. My chances of winning are nill, but it helps to put things in perspective.

 

Like I said before, whatever match the group picks I will play. That said, while I will play your game, it seems that everyone is scrambling to avoid playing my (reality based) game.

 

Again, do not recall refusing to participate in any simulation - on the contrary. Simply pointing out its irrelevance to the initial assertion of this thread.

 

As to the "reality" based scenarios - as someone who has had a bit of actual first hand exposure to street crime I can tell you that the knife wielding maniac jumping out of nowhere to attack you for no apparent reason is pretty f-ing far from reality.

[Krdshrk 3,877]

Tosser - where do you want to do this? I may show up too.

[Ray Ray 3,566]

This has become a pissing contest, again. I would love to meet you guys on a range that would allow for us to test our experiment. And according to most of your "resume's", lower lifeforms like myself who don't shoot IDPA/USPSA/whatever aren't good enough. Wanna bet?

[bbk 188]

I got the invite too, so, I'll be there. Been awhile since I got to flick on the proverbial switch, probably be good for the soul to let some of it out.

I'll be good for the 11th, as the 18th I have some plans as well.

[vladtepes 1,060]

it has been proven time and time again that when under stress you revert back to your most instinctive skills..

 

train how you fight because you will fight how you train...

 

spend 5,000 hours dumping rounds from your race gun from an uncovered position is not going to net the best training for someone pointing a gun in your direction at 3am on a street corner... with that said there is nothing wrong with gun sports like that.. they take a lot of skill and I have nothing but respect for that.. but there are certainly better options for training if self defense is the ultimate goal..

[Vlad G 345]

This has become a pissing contest, again. I would love to meet you guys on a range that would allow for us to test our experiment. And according to most of your "resume's", lower lifeforms like myself who don't shoot IDPA/USPSA/whatever aren't good enough. Wanna bet?

 

I said no such thing Ray. In fact you should have a leg up on me having gone through bootcamp. The only thing that interests me here is IF I have bad habits that you do not because of my involvement in competitive shooting.