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I just watched some videos on youtube of force on force. I want to do this. This looks like so much fun, and it'll teach you a lot about your self and what you'll do in that situation.

 

What will be the FPS limitations on the airsoft guns? Cause I only have CO2 pistols and some electric Rifles.

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I can not change the date to July, I'm going on a two week vacation and have to work every other weekend.

 

 

We will have access to one sims guns and a couple of airsoft guns in addition to the "shoot house".

 

If you read the other (locked) thread you will see where this is all coming from, but basically its to show people from various disciplines of shooting the pros/cons in their ways and how they relate to potential criminal encounters, and hopefully produce enough stress that people will revert to their training/experiences.

 

We will have a LEO or few on sight to play referee. You Will be searched prior to evolutions for safety reasons and this is standard practice at FoF events.

 

I'm not going to get into specific detail of what will exactly be done. Look up force on force on youtube and any/all of it is possible.

 

There will be physical contact, but obviously no obvious head shots/groin shots.

 

Go back and read the previous thread in General Firearms discussion in completion.

 

I'm very aware (and experienced in) FoF scenarios, but as you probably already know there are many different types of FoF scenarios and even more approaches in the methodology. Also, a link to the thread you are talking about would be useful, and a title. I'm going to assume its the "Can gun games get you killed" one though.

 

Also, if anyone needs an airsoft gun let me know. I have a few spares laying around, and one or two that should be repaired by then.

 

Extras:

2 M4s

1 Scar (possible, definitely not guaranteed)

1 MP5 possible

1 1911

1 Glock 18

 

I too would like to know the FPS as I may need to swap the springs out.

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Are we going to need a holster?

 

Ideally if you wish to train for reaction from the holster, yes. But if you wish to work on clearing and engaging, than no. Really depends on what you are going for. Good thing is most all airsoft pistols are compatible with their real steel counterparts. For instance I have a Glock 18, Sig 226, and 1911. All three work perfectly with their real holsters (G17/19? for the G18).

 

Another thing to consider is I run a full rig with RRV and such. I look at airsoft as a tactical training tool, but a game none the less. When using my M4 or pistol, I run the exact same gear I would if I was using the real fire arm. Pretty soon Im going to be training for CCW and reaction drills.

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this is sooo seeming to be epic. =P

 

How about a later date.... to trully get the game on... ie IDPA/ vs Airsoft vs USPSA vs CounterSTrike/video game crowd. =P

 

make it multi disciple... real life scenarios, zombie scenarios, etc. =P :girlwerewolf:

 

Or just make it all about fun. =P

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I have no idea what FPS my gas powered airsoft pistol shoots, nor what FPS is considered "safe". I just bought it, loaded it up, and used it for FOF. I have seen lots of bloody knuckles and bruises, but no real injuries. It definitely hurts less than Sims though :icon_e_wink:

 

I think everything Tosser has planned with be at relatively close ranges.

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I have no idea what FPS my gas powered airsoft pistol shoots, nor what FPS is considered "safe". I just bought it, loaded it up, and used it for FOF. I have seen lots of bloody knuckles and bruises, but no real injuries. It definitely hurts less than Sims though :icon_e_wink:

 

I think everything Tosser has planned with be at relatively close ranges.

 

Define safe?

 

 

Safe meaning it won't kill you? Or safe meaning it won't hurt when you're hit?

 

 

I'm like Joel, i have no idea what FPS mine shoots.

 

This seems to have gotten really off base from my initial plan for what this will be. The facility isn't well suited for the number people who responded to this thread to allow a worth while amount of evolutions. Meaning i don't want people who are driving 2hours to get only one or two runs each.

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Define safe?

 

Safe meaning it won't kill you? Or safe meaning it won't hurt when you're hit?

 

I guess I would define safe as causing no premanant injuries, or requiring medical atention.

 

It needs to hurt, as the pain penalty is one of the best things about FOF to help create stress, and encourage good tactics. If it doesn't hurt no one cares when they get shot, and then they act like it is a game, not training. That is why I like Sims, as people try a LOT harder to not get shot with Sims, and thus it is more realistic.

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Standard green gas/propane pistols will shoot around the 300FPS range, which is fine. For CQB/Close Quarter games, we (my team and the airsoft community in general) use a 350FPS limit with .25g bb's. For outdoor/long range, we use 400FPS with .25g's, while DMR can use up to 500FPS with .25 - semi auto only with a 100 foot minimum engagement distance.

 

This FPS limit is for safety. A 400 FPS bb at 5-10 feet will break skin, whereas a 300fps will hurt and will leave a welt.

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Mainly these are safety limits in case it hits delicate or loose skin, and also the face area. These bbs can easily break teeth or become lodged in skin if you get much more powerful than that.

 

As far as FoF this facility is plenty big enough for up top 5v5 if I remember correctly. Just run a few drills and then set a few scenarios.

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This is not going to be an Airsoft game. No 5v5 or whatever.

 

 

This is a Learning event. It will contain a few skills and scenarios, at 20yds or less. Each "situation" will be 2 minutes or less.

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I think this should be restricted to only the most involved parties in the other thread, and/or anyone with lots of equipment to lend out.

 

I'd like to see the result of that 9-page debate that raged the other day. I'd love to join up at the next one if invited. I have a few airsoft guns. They definitely hurt when you get rocked at close range.

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I am interested in the procedure we are going to follow in data collection/evaluation. Obviously it is not going to be possible to do this as a blind study - which would have been the best approach(actually double blind would be the best). However we should strive to do what we can. As I recall there were a couple of assertions:

 

1. Gun games can instill bad habits that will kill in "real world scenarios".

2. Certain gun games are better than others specifically IDPA is better than USPSA

3. Training classes are better than gun games.

 

So it would seem that we need 3 types of "contestants".

 

1. Experience is limited to USPSA (Vlad and I qualify I think between the two of us we may have five IDPA matches, no training classes and no airsoft experience).

2. Experience is limited to IDPA - not sure who will represent this group.

3. Experience is limited to training classes - same as above.

 

All three types of contestants should go through the same scenarios several times each. Ideally the "referees" should have no knowledge as to which group is which.

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I am interested in the procedure we are going to follow in data collection/evaluation. Obviously it is not going to be possible to do this as a blind study - which would have been the best approach(actually double blind would be the best). However we should strive to do what we can. As I recall there were a couple of assertions:

 

1. Gun games can instill bad habits that will kill in "real world scenarios".

2. Certain gun games are better than others specifically IDPA is better than USPSA

3. Training classes are better than gun games.

 

So it would seem that we need 3 types of "contestants".

 

1. Experience is limited to USPSA (Vlad and I qualify I think between the two of us we may have five IDPA matches, no training classes and no airsoft experience).

2. Experience is limited to IDPA - not sure who will represent this group.

3. Experience is limited to training classes - same as above.

 

All three types of contestants should go through the same scenarios several times each. Ideally the "referees" should have no knowledge as to which group is which.

Finally something that makes sense!

Thank you SSlav!

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1) Correct (with the edit of will to can)

2) If you conclude a few less bad habits are instilled by IDPA over USPSA I guess you could see it that way

3) This assertian is incomplete. I believe the assertion was classes + training.

 

In your and Vlad's case, I think the real question in the evaluation may turn into if enough "stress" can be induced in this test to get your brains to switch to autopilot. Its my honest opinion that you may gain much more from the experience if we just ran it like a training excersize. YOU WILL KNOW if you do something out of step and reflect back on what motivated you to do it after. Even if its a split second hesitation, you will know. And then you can evaluate it from there. You need never share those insights if you dont whish to but you will have gained those insights and that has value.

 

I would like to also add that I dont know ANY catagory 2 or 3's. Everyone I know that shoots IDPA came from USPSA. And they also usually shoot several other gun games too.

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2) If you conclude a few less bad habits are instilled by IDPA over USPSA I guess you could see it that way

 

Is it significant enough to make a difference in a scenario? It would make sense to do a test. IMHO there is no significant difference. I feel use of cover is more of a conscious choice, not a reflexive one. Furthermore I feel that the amount of cover required by IDPA is actually less than what you would want to have if someone is shooting back. And I also feel that USPSA stages can and do force you to shoot from greater amount of cover than IDPA via placement of fault lines. The difference in handling reloads, is unlikely to come into play in any civilian scenario. Order of engagement is the only element that may provide meaningful difference. But having said that near to far is not necessarily the best order in every situation.

 

Regardless it would be interesting to see how those who shoot the disciplines exclusively or near so react in the same scenario.

 

3) This assertian is incomplete. I believe the assertion was classes + training.

 

Whats training? Something you do by yourself to re-enforce what you learned from the class? I would take that as a given. Or do you mean something else?

 

In your and Vlad's case, I think the real question in the evaluation may turn into if enough "stress" can be induced in this test to get your brains to switch to autopilot.

 

Well that is going to be a challenge with everyone involved. End of the day we all know that those are not real bullets and the worst thing you can suffer is bruised ego (and some minor bruising from impacts). I am not sure that this is more stress than timer provides in a match.

 

Its my honest opinion that you may gain much more from the experience if we just ran it like a training excersize. YOU WILL KNOW if you do something out of step and reflect back on what motivated you to do it after. Even if its a split second hesitation, you will know. And then you can evaluate it from there. You need never share those insights if you dont whish to but you will have gained those insights and that has value.

 

I am sure that Vlad and I will gain something out of it. I also think we will be honest about our experience. And if the goal is to find out how mid-level USPSA shooters react in FoF simulation, we will accomplish that, though two people is a rather small sample.

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In the context of USPSA and IDPA, I think a key difference is that in IDPA its required but you can forget to do it vs being maneuvered into position by design. For ME cover is one of the ones I worry about more. A friend and BW trainer running me at an IDPA match, screaming at me to get in cover and I STILL didnt do it from the "habit" of USPSA. Stress was high for me as it had been almost 10 years since I competed and it was a change of venue from IPSC to IDPA. But in the end I think we can easily agree to disagree here. In the case of tactical order...are you sitting down? I found the order I would choose to shoot targets in a lot of scenarios done IPSC style BETTER and significantly disagreed with IDPA rules on this. For example this stage below I ABSOLUTELY would have shot near to far against IDPA rules of engaging as you see em slicing the pie. My opinion, this would have got you a slug in your right ear! I even kinda satisfied the rules but did a little of my own thing here.

 

 

 

Yes I meant continuing your training. I have run into, as I am sure you have too, the cat that went to a class and is now the warrier guru but has little trigger time beyond his 1 class.

 

Stress..... agreed which will make the reults hard to eval.

 

And again I agree, I think we will all gain something. Honestly I think I am closer to your and Vlads side of the fence than Tosser and Joel from an actual experience perspective but after MANY years in my "other" job interviewing everyone from Delta to SWAT, to SS etc etc and having to think in those terms for designing optics mounts etc etc and my business partners creds, my mind set has definitly been on the other side of the fence.

 

I think we will all gain something out of it including some new friends.

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I've done a LOT of training, and run training myself, not to mention I frequently play airsoft in MILSIM and paintsofting realms.

 

The problem though is the uneven amount of experience everyone shares. You can have "representatives" from each discipline but the fact of the matter is unless they all have similar levels of experience it isn't exactly a clear indicator on the pros/cons of each, or to see which one fares better.

 

To KISS:

 

"Train like you fight."

 

Also, "Training Trumps Gear."

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