NJ Passes public workers health/pension reform

[hd2000fxdl 422]

I dunno, maybe where you live but here in Monmouth County 90k isn't a lot. Don't get me wrong, I only make about 55k a year myself right now. I am single so I have to pay all my own bills. Stuff is expensive here. I live in a really small apt and it costs me 900 bucks a month. In another state this place would be like 400 a month. Electric is 60 a month, gas is 50. I split my cable and internet with my upstairs neighbor and that's 45 bucks a month. My cell phone is 80 (no land line) Car insurance is 70 (liability only. My car is paid off thank god. Thats 1260 bucks a month on the bare necessities although you could argue the cell phone. That's no gas in my car, no food in my mouth, no food for the dog, nothing. So someone who makes 50k a year spends over half his or her paychecks a month on the bare minimum to live. That's not really a good ratio. Now I am not poor, but I am not wealthy by any means. I look around up here and half the cars you see driving around are luxary cars. Lexus, Acura, BMW, Mercedes. No kidding. Even people 20-25 years old are rocking really nice cars. I just don't know where they all get the money from. What do they all do for work?

 

Maybe I should just get a gf, move in together and split the bills? Maybe a roommate? I really don't want a roommate at age 34 but I know a lot of people who do since the cost of living is so high. Point being that although 90k sounds like a decent amount, in some areas of NJ it isn't ****.

 

Heck, My house is 1000 a month in Property taxes alone, Between utilities (Gas, Electric, Cable, Phone, Internet, Water Sewer) add in Insurance and I'm at 2 grand a month before I put food on the table. If I had a mortgage I wouldn't be able to afford where I live. It's all where you put your money and how you allocate it and for what.

 

I know people who make less than 50K a year and they live well, I also know many people who are making close to 200K or more a year and are living from paycheck to paycheck.

 

The people you see with fancy things may not really be theirs, I see that all the time in AZ, couple million dollar homes, exotic cars and not a pot to piss in, there is more flash and show out there than you would think.

 

Harry

[Babaganoosh 192]

$600/week times 52 weeks = $31,200/year.

 

Exactly. 31,200 is approx what you would take home AFTER you get raped in taxes. Someone making 50k a year would bring home approx 600 dollars a week.

[Babaganoosh 192]

right.. once more..

 

when you say "I have a $50k a year job" you are not NORMALLY talking about BEFORE deductions.. in fact some companies even send out "statements" showing you the "value" of your employment.. and they are including the money you make pre-taxes, health insurance, etc.. granted there are no jobs I am aware of where a $50k a year job equates to $30k a year take home.. I am just saying you are being overly critical.. as "brings home about 600 a week" "that is like a $50k a year job" well maybe it is not 600 a week.. maybe it is a little more.. I am just saying he was not saying "she makes exactly $52,490 a year.. that is ridiculous.." he was saying "that is like a $50k a year job.." I do not believe he was trying to be exact.....

 

Exactly...

[JackDaWack 2,895]

Well if you guys are cool with having the least certified people teach your kids and do the rest of the public works with in NJ then i can say fine... But when NJ demands highly certified individuals and wants there pick of workers then too friggen bad. No one will want these jobs anymore, its plain and simple. The only people going into teaching from here on out will be the ones with minimum GPA's, the least expensive and probably least effective teacher prep programs, who can't cut it in the real world because guess what, just like all of you say its time to find a new job, all the smart ones that are good at their jobs will probably find better jobs in the private sector. Teaching will no longer be something people want to do, but rather are forced to do because they cant find work anywhere else... So every one bitches about how bad teachers are now, just wait...

Again, just look at the math and science teachers here in NJ. You can find a job right out of a program, why? because when u go to school and get a degree in biology physics chemistry mathmatics the jobs in the public sector are better, and now the private sector is looking even better. Add the fact that most of these people earn advanced degrees or have already, it will be even easier to find jobs in the public sector.

[vladtepes 1,060]

Well if you guys are cool with having the least certified people teach your kids and do the rest of the public works with in NJ then i can say fine... But when NJ demands highly certified individuals and wants there pick of workers then too friggen bad. No one will want these jobs anymore, its plain and simple. The only people going into teaching from here on out will be the ones with minimum GPA's, the least expensive and probably least effective teacher prep programs, who can't cut it in the real world because guess what, just like all of you say its time to find a new job, all the smart ones that are good at their jobs will probably find better jobs in the private sector. Teaching will no longer be something people want to do, but rather are forced to do because they cant find work anywhere else... So every one bitches about how bad teachers are now, just wait...

 

 

it doesn't matter if I WANT a Ferrari... especially when I can only AFFORD a Mustang... sometimes what you want is irrelevant.. and the sooner Americans realize that you may not always have the means to get what you want.. we will be far better off..

 

no offense or anything.. but I will take less qualified teachers as opposed to a bankrupted state... NOT casting ALL of the blame on education.. just pointing out that sometimes tough choices have to be made.. and when it comes to the question of what to do with a phys ed teacher making 90K + a year.. I think I am pretty comfortable dealing with a less certified gym teacher if it is going to come at a 20-30 THOUSAND dollar a year savings.. keep in mind we are talking a SINGLE teacher..

[JackDaWack 2,895]

it doesn't matter if I WANT a Ferrari... especially when I can only AFFORD a Mustang... sometimes what you want is irrelevant.. and the sooner Americans realize that you may not always have the means to get what you want.. we will be far better off..

 

no offense or anything.. but I will take less qualified teachers as opposed to a bankrupted state... NOT casting ALL of the blame on education.. just pointing out that sometimes tough choices have to be made.. and when it comes to the question of what to do with a phys ed teacher making 90K + a year.. I think I am pretty comfortable dealing with a less certified gym teacher if it is going to come at a 20-30 THOUSAND dollar a year savings.. keep in mind we are talking a SINGLE teacher..

phys e.d. is a piss poor scape goat in this conversation. real subject matter teachers put in 1000x more work a year then a p.e. teacher. If P.E. was a successful class we wouldnt be the most obese country in the world.

 

90 thousand dollar a year teachers will be few and far in between in the future anyway, that was fixed with the 2% increase cap. if i want to make 100k by the time i retire i would have to work 35+ years and earn a doctorate.

 

Again my biggest issue here is that everyone seems to blame the workers, if they didn't this wouldn't have happened. Are we really OK with the state paying less qualified people who will undoubtedly make your kids dumber, or would you rather have them fix the problem at the root cause? the problem was never what the workers were getting, it has always been about how the state conducted its business and that hasnt changed, which is what really should have.

 

Let me put this into perspective, NJ teachers make average pay and benefits compared to the other 49 states, yet NJ spends the most out of all 49...where does the money go? cause it aint going to the workers.

 

Let put something else into perspective, i went to private school and teachers sucked why? because they had no certification and couldn't even hack it in the public system. I struggled like all hell to get though college because no one prepared me, what a waste of money. I'd rather spend the money on something good then waste it on something sub par.

 

Do you buy a 20,000 dollar honda that will get the job done? or do you buy a 2,000 dollar hooptie that will break down all the time and will end up needing more money to make run and piss poor at that.

[vladtepes 1,060]

phys e.d. is a piss poor scape goat in this conversation. real subject matter teachers put in 1000x more work a year then a p.e. teacher. If P.E. was a successful class we wouldnt be the most obese country in the world.

 

90 thousand dollar a year teachers will be few and far in between in the future anyway, that was fixed with the 2% increase cap. if i want to make 100k by the time i retire i would have to work 35+ years and earn a doctorate.

 

Again my biggest issue here is that everyone seems to blame the workers, if they didn't this wouldn't have happened. Are we really OK with the state paying less qualified people who will undoubtedly make your kids dumber, or would you rather have them fix the problem at the root cause? the problem was never what the workers were getting, it has always been about how the state conducted its business and that hasnt changed, which is what really should have.

 

Let me put this into perspective, NJ teachers make average pay and benefits compared to the other 49 states, yet NJ spends the most out of all 49...where does the money go? cause it aint going to the workers.

 

Let put something else into perspective, i went to private school and teachers sucked why? because they had no certification and couldn't even hack it in the public system. I struggled like all hell to get though college because no one prepared me, what a waste of money. I'd rather spend the money on something good then waste it on something sub par.

 

Do you buy a 20,000 dollar honda that will get the job done? or do you buy a 2,000 dollar hooptie that will break down all the time and will end up needing more money to make run and piss poor at that.

 

 

there is such an abundance of uselessness amongst the American population... it doesn't matter if you are literally the best teacher to ever walk the earth.. with a home life devoid of core values... and an excessively carefree lifestyle.. one molded by corporate America.. the end result will continue to be poor..

[vladtepes 1,060]

phys e.d. is a piss poor scape goat in this conversation.

 

 

not when you take a look at Ocean City High School salaries... check out the art teachers while you are there looking them up...

[halbautomatisch 60]

If you don't have $20,000 and can't borrow the money, you have no choice but to get the $2,000 car. That's where we're at in this state, the sooner the government worker unions come to the realization that this is OUR reality the better off we'll all be.

 

I can understand public workers anger, they were lied to by pandering politicians who promised them things that the state will never be able to deliver. If there is any saving the public workers pension system, there will need to be way more extensive reform of the public worker system. Screaming like a five year old who just had a candy bar taken away from them is not going to get the unions anything more than disdain from the hard working tax payers who are on the hook for their benefits and pensions.

[vladtepes 1,060]

+1 to you..

 

If you don't have $20,000 and can't borrow the money, you have no choice but to get the $2,000 car. That's where we're at in this state, the sooner the government worker unions come to the realization that this is OUR reality the better off we'll all be.

 

I can understand public workers anger, they were lied to by pandering politicians who promised them things that the state will never be able to deliver. If there is any saving the public workers pension system, there will need to be way more extensive reform of the public worker system. Screaming like a five year old who just had a candy bar taken away from them is not going to get the unions anything more than disdain from the hard working tax payers who are on the hook for their benefits and pensions.

[JackDaWack 2,895]

not when you take a look at Ocean City High School salaries... check out the art teachers while you are there looking them up...

ohhhhh i believe you, i don't even have to look. It's a joke what some of these people get paid when u think about what the kids are taking home at the end of the day. It's even worse when you work with these said people and all they do is complain. Personally, i can understand the arguments from both sides, but i do see a number of resourceful ways the state could save money and keep workers pay and benefits in check. There is a ton of waste in the system right now, but like others have said before the unions are pretty keen on keeping the waste around.. I just hope the states next move is to find better ways to reward the productive workers and deduct from the waste. This whole everyone is on the same level crap is total BS.

[Shawnmoore81 623]

As far as the $600 a week that's what she brings home. What I make makes no difference to whether or not cutting her pay is fair. But if i make alot more then her and with the $185 a week day care cost at what point isnt it worth her working? You are gonna end up with retards working in all these gov offices if this continues. I do have a nice house and decent cars but we are by no means rich. They need to cut needless spending, get the pos's that have been on welfare for generations working and paying taxes and make some people retire.

[Krdshrk 3,877]

They need to cut needless spending

 

This.

 

It's not just the welfare peeps. It's in the government and in schools as well.

[NJ609 22]

I think it's very simple math. There's nothing wrong with expecting anyone in a public job to contribute to their retirement and medical costs at a level that is fair and comparable to similarly paid private jobs.

 

"Back in the day" the pay scale was way lower so these perks were part of attracting talent. But it's more competitive now.

 

There are no guarantees in life, nor in your career and people should stop expecting public vs private sector to be any different in this day and age.

 

Frankly the entitlement attitude is very insulting to people who do decide to make it in the merit based private sector. Just like the scorn some private employees have for the public sector is insulting.

 

People need to relax and be realistic. Yeah, I know, two impossible goals...

[raz-0 1,259]

We NEED pension and health care reform. I say this as a mostly state worker (a good chunk of my pay and benefits are state funded, but not all). As a whole, my benefits package already matches what they want the unions to accept. It's still a pretty killer benefits package. It is not something to be afraid of.

 

I try to explain to the teachers I know that you DON'T want a pension, you want a 403b with a nice match. Their answer is that their "pensions are guaranteed! There's no guarantee with a 401k!!!" My answer to that is your pension pays out way more than it brings in. a boatload of greedy political hacks can use it as their private piggy bank, and not even come close to breaking the law. On top of that, the math breaks down and the only way it will be able to pay out is to work it like a pyramid scheme with an expanding base, make sound investments, or to get constant infusion of cash form outside the pension system. Option 1 isn't likely to occur at a sufficient rate. Option two is the same as a 401k. Option 3 clearly isn't happening as the politicians have realized they can grab the cash. The only thing guaranteed about the pension system is that at some point and time, the recipients checks are going to bounce. The teachers don't seem to grasp that, historically, pensions have gone bankrupt, and so can theirs.

 

I get a 403b. At least I know how much is actually in the bank, and the politicians and my employer can't touch what is there. I also have some degree of input to manage investment risk, which the pension system does not, despite being invested and having investment risks.

 

If the NJEA really wants the heat off their union, they should roll out the vote to reform how school construction is funded. It's pretty much designed to vacuum tax dollars into cronies pockets. Instead, you could continue to say how important you are and that the taxpayer owes you and can't replace you.

 

 

 

Our graduation rate is 18th in the nation, and we cheat to get that high.

 

Our teacher pay is 4TH in the nation.

 

I can also say this as a product of public education. Since I graduated, the only place I have noticed a significant increase in the difficulty/quality of education is K-4. The same schools I attended have between 4 and 6 times as many administrative staff. They have added teachers aids in the classroom despite class sizes being similar if not the same. Adjusted for inflation, in the schools I attended, the teachers' pay has gone up about 25% across the board despite the job not really changing. More importantly in this comparison, those schools I attended were essentially all bringing up the bottom of the top 10% of public schools. Despite all the extra manpower, new facilities, teachers entrenched in their jobs for decades at the redline on salary for their education level, every single one of them has fallen in their rankings.

 

I have head endless numbers of teachers complain about being forced to be over glorified baby sitters these days. People have noticed. You don't need to pay someone 100k a year to be a baby sitter. This is why people are pissed off.

[JackDaWack 2,895]

New Jersey awards diplomas to 87 percent of its high school students, making the state’s graduation rate the highest in the nation, an annual review released today shows.

N.J. high school graduation rate is highest in the nation, review says

http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2011/06/nj_high_school_graduation_rate.html

 

I agree with what u said about the pensions, but i'm not sure where you got all the rest of those numbers from...

[Krdshrk 3,877]

I agree that the graduation rate is the highest in the nation, but I don't agree with how we're going about doing it. There are plenty of high school "graduates" out there that can't pass a simple 8th grade aptitude test.

[Old School 611]

I agree that the graduation rate is the highest in the nation, but I don't agree with how we're going about doing it. There are plenty of high school "graduates" out there that can't pass a simple 8th grade aptitude test.

 

 

Nick- I was an English tutor at a Community College. I agree it was sickening!

[JackDaWack 2,895]

I agree that the graduation rate is the highest in the nation, but I don't agree with how we're going about doing it. There are plenty of high school "graduates" out there that can't pass a simple 8th grade aptitude test.

I'm pretty sure every state has about the same percentage of waste graduating, i haven't seen any of the high school aptitude tests this year, but last year and the year before that the proficiency in most schools either stayed the same or went up significantly. NJ is in the top 5 for graduates going to college(march of 2011 declared the state as 3rd in the nation.

[JackDaWack 2,895]

Nick- I was an English tutor at a Community College. I agree it was sickening!

If you teach in a urban area, as an English teacher you have almost everything working against you. Households that don't even speak English, or maybe as a second language, and a community that's built around Ebonics. Same with Math. I never understood how you could blame the schools when the students go home at the end of the day and either plug in there video games or go out with there friends. English Math and almost every other subject need remedial studying, and not one thing a teacher does will make a student go home and study.... As for how they make it that far? you can thank no child left behind and the absurd way we classify special needs students.

 

Oh little johnny has ADHD and a temper, he cannot study, so make the test easier for him. ( yes that is exactly how it works) If you compare the tests in the same class normal vs special needs, you will see that one test is challenging while the other is well just down right retarded easy, and they still fail them! I've seen a test go from 40 equations with 4 possible answers each, manipulated down to 20 questions with 2 possible answers each. Both tests given in the same class room and the same kids fail every time, while the same kids perform well every time. Some students legitimately have learning disabilities but making test easier does nothing to help them, and yes this is all NJ and Federal LAW, every school operates under these conditions within NJ.

 

You want to eliminate waste? It cost on average every year about 60-80k per special needs child. You have an entire child study team + aid that gets paid. Schools which don't have the resources have to out-source the kids to other schools which have the resources and then have to pay for transportation. These numbers are true, and may even be lower then normal, I have taken them strait out of the Paterson district minutes.

[Babaganoosh 192]

I've seen a test go from 40 equations with 4 possible answers each, manipulated down to 20 questions with 2 possible answers each. Both tests given in the same class room and the same kids fail every time, while the same kids perform well every time.

 

--- That is how life goes. The fact is some people are smart and some are stupid. That's why you have Dr's, Lawyers, Engineers, and ditch diggers, garbage-men, and unskilled laborers. There's a place in life for pretty much everyone. Yes, there are always people who are smart and don't succeed for whatever reason. There are a few smart ones that slip thru the cracks, who might have benefitted from a different style of teaching to help them out of their shells. However if they are truely smart they can figure out how to succeed in life. If they don't, it's ultimatly their own fault.

 

"Well the world needs ditch diggers too" -Caddyshack

[JackDaWack 2,895]

I've seen a test go from 40 equations with 4 possible answers each, manipulated down to 20 questions with 2 possible answers each. Both tests given in the same class room and the same kids fail every time, while the same kids perform well every time.

 

--- That is how life goes. The fact is some people are smart and some are stupid. That's why you have Dr's, Lawyers, Engineers, and ditch diggers, garbage-men, and unskilled laborers. There's a place in life for pretty much everyone. Yes, there are always people who are smart and don't succeed for whatever reason. There are a few smart ones that slip thru the cracks, who might have benefitted from a different style of teaching to help them out of their shells. However if they are truely smart they can figure out how to succeed in life. If they don't, it's ultimatly their own fault.

 

"Well the world needs ditch diggers too" -Caddyshack

 

Whole hardheartedly agreed. But do we spend 60k+ a year on ditch diggers?