Explain red dot sights...

[Jeff 13]

I recently purchased a red dot sight for my Storm and unless I'm missing something, I don't see it as being very useful. I thought the whole point was that it shows the red dot exactly where the bullet will go, but if I hold the rifle fixed and move my head to the side a bit, the dot moves. Doesn't that defeat the whole purpose? It seems to me it only lines up when you're looking directly down the scope but if you were to fold down your iron sights, you really wouldn't have a reference for when you were looking directly down the scope axis.

[Ray Ray 3,566]

What red-dot did you mount?

[vjf915 456]

I think you're misunderstanding what happens when you move your head. Hold the rifle still, preferably on a bi-pod. Aim it at a certain object (you're obviously doing all of this with the rifle UNLOADED and with the safety on). Move your head. You will notice that the dot will still be pointing at the same object. If zero'd correctly, a red dot sight will always be pointed in the right direction. Instead of having to line up the front and rear sight, you just need to aim the red dot at what you want to shoot.

[Shane45 807]

Jeff, I think whats tripping you up is that you are assuming the dot has to be in the middle to be accuracte. It s not the case (in a quality red dot optic) If the dot is on your target, even if it is not in the center, it will hit whatever the dot is on.

[vjf915 456]

Shane simplified it for me

[JackDaWack 2,895]

Jeff, I think whats tripping you up is that you are assuming the dot has to be in the middle to be accuracte. It s not the case (in a quality red dot optic) If the dot is on your target, even if it is not in the center, it will hit whatever the dot is on.

 

Not necessarily. All Red dots have parallax by the nature of design. The more expense the sight, usually the less parallax. Eotech has a bent lens to help this but isn't truly parallax free. If you look down the sight and set the dot on a fixed object and with out moving the rifle shift to the left the dot will move off target(to the left). Red dots are designed to be looked through like normal irons without the obstructions, they give a clear field of view and allow you to quickly engage targets.

I tested this on my xps2. all sights seem to be different and the parallax with differ at different distances. focusing the dot at about 5 feet from a target my dot will shift about a 1/4inch, the further out i focus the less it shifts off, the concave glass helps a lot but its not perfect.

[PK90 3,570]

Distance of the target is key. Trying the same at a further target and it will work. for you.

[Shane45 807]

Jack, its not ment to be perfect, its meant to be fast with acceptable accuracy. It works, as you point out, because of the concave glass. The accuracy of that bend directly correlates to the accracy of the poa/poi. In fact if the bend is really off, like a whole bunch of Eotechs that got recalled, the holograph will dissappear when moved off center.

 

I think your test is flawed. You have to find out what the parallax free distance is designed into the sight you are testing and perform the test at that distance. Its probably 50 meters for the eotech. It will be off a margin of error the closer in you move but still within combat accuracy. Of course this opens the other can of worms of mechanical offset based on the distance you zeroed the weapon.

[JackDaWack 2,895]

Jack, its not ment to be perfect, its meant to be fast with acceptable accuracy. It works, as you point out, because of the concave glass. The accuracy of that bend directly correlates to the accracy of the poa/poi. In fact if the bend is really off, like a whole bunch of Eotechs that got recalled, the holograph will dissappear when moved off center.

 

I think your test is flawed. You have to find out what the parallax free distance is designed into the sight you are testing and perform the test at that distance. Its probably 50 meters for the eotech. It will be off a margin of error the closer in you move but still within combat accuracy. Of course this opens the other can of worms of mechanical offset based on the distance you zeroed the weapon.

 

That's basically what i was getting at. I did the test to see how distance impacted the POI. Since no one had mentioned it i figured it would be worth adding in. People like me, just sitting in a room that's 10x10 feet with my brandy new sight trying to figure out what the deal is and why my dot is shifting POI.. Then u realize the sight is not meant to be shooting targets 10 feet away.. i went out side and focused about 30yards(best i could get with out obstruction) and the dot basically stayed dead on.

 

I figured the whole mechanical offset issue shouldn't be all that bad if your centered behind the sight like u normally would. To me, off center shots are usually taken place while in close quarters where distances isn't that big of an issue.

 

The thing is, Red Dots are not some magical follow the target sight, they have perks and flaws and you need to use them with in there limits just like any other sight or scope.

[Shane45 807]

Jack, you are doing what so many should do, experiment and see! I appluad the efforts. The mechanical offset conversation is one I have more with LE folk, this is true, but an understanding of the principle and apllication is important to understand. Yeah, this is an out there scenario but its the kind that would be affected. Shaky crack head has a knife to your wifes throat and is telling you if you dont give him the Green Lantern ring in 5 seconds he is going to do her. Understanding that mechanical offset can possibly mean the difference of a throat shot that will possibly lack the instant issue ending properties of a cns/apricot shot you could get by taking the offset into account.

 

 

"The thing is, Red Dots are not some magical follow the target sight, they have perks and flaws and you need to use them with in there limits just like any other sight or scope"

 

I have yet to find this principle not apply to anything in the shooting sports from top to bottom, left to right. I believe that just about everything is a compromise one way or another.

[Jeff 13]

What red-dot did you mount?

 

It's just a (fairly) inexpensive Bushnell TRS-25. I wasn't sure how good/useful it was going to be so I didn't buy something more expensive. I'll take a little bit more time with it this weekend, but so far I'm not impressed. I do like the Streamlight TLR-1 with remote pressure switch, however.

[Ray Ray 3,566]

It's just a (fairly) inexpensive Bushnell TRS-25. I wasn't sure how good/useful it was going to be so I didn't buy something more expensive. I'll take a little bit more time with it this weekend, but so far I'm not impressed. I do like the Streamlight TLR-1 with remote pressure switch, however.

 

Great, great light.

[vladtepes 1,060]

on all Aimpoint optics I have owned and or shot.. it was difficult if not impossible to create parallax.. no matter where I would create a cheek weld that dot would not move.. this is why I use it on guns that I prefer to shoot "fast" because there is minimal concern with lining things up.. just shoulder gun put dot on target and squeeze..

[Jeff 13]

Well, then I don't think this is working right. With the rifle lined up on a distant target based on the iron sights, moving your head causes the red dot to move off of what the sights were aiming at.

[Jon 264]

Have you tried shooting the rifle yet?

[Krdshrk 3,877]

You mean the dot is moving off where the iron sights point? You know if you move off to the side, the iron sights aren't accurate...... the dot should still be on the target itself...

[Jeff 13]

I know what you're saying. But if I used the iron sight to line up on a distant item and not move the rifle so should always be on the same target and the slightly move my head, the dot moves off that target.

[Jon 264]

I know what you're saying. But if I used the iron sight to line up on a distant item and not move the rifle so should always be on the same target and the slightly move my head, the dot moves off that target.

 

Try shooting the rifle...

[Shane45 807]

Forget what the irons are doing. Line up the dot on the target at about 50meters. Then move your head left or right without touching your rifle.

[Jeff 13]

I have shot the rifle. The existing sights are pretty close to on. So the point I'm trying to make is this: Let's say I look out the window and fix the iron sights on a knot in a tree or something far away. Since the sights are on, that is where the bullet will go. Also, since this optic co-witnesses, the red dot appears to show up right where it should be if I'm looking through the iron sights. But, while still holding the rifle as still as I can (i.e. still pointing at that knot in the tree) if I move my head (not the rifle) a little bit off the direct axis of the optic, the dot moves. To me that means the red dot is not in fact pointing where the bullet will go. That's as best as I can explain it.

[Jeff 13]

And I should have specified that the dot moves OFF OF the knot, which is where the bullet is going.

[vladtepes 1,060]

I have shot the rifle. The existing sights are pretty close to on. So the point I'm trying to make is this: Let's say I look out the window and fix the iron sights on a knot in a tree or something far away. Since the sights are on, that is where the bullet will go. Also, since this optic co-witnesses, the red dot appears to show up right where it should be if I'm looking through the iron sights. But, while still holding the rifle as still as I can (i.e. still pointing at that knot in the tree) if I move my head (not the rifle) a little bit off the direct axis of the optic, the dot moves. To me that means the red dot is not in fact pointing where the bullet will go. That's as best as I can explain it.

 

 

it sounds like you are just experiencing the difference between $100 and $400 optic... when I replicate the same exercise with my Aimpoint.. the dot stays on the knot (within reason) thus making an Aimpoint faster than Irons...

 

cheek weld.. lining up sights.. with an Aimpoint is not a consideration.. just put red dot on target and squeeze.. with irons.. or an optic that works in the way yours does.. you will need to take more time to ensure a consistent cheek weld.. or bite the bullet and buy a higher priced optic that does not suffer from the same parallax issues..

 

see if anyone is running a higher end red dot the next time you are at the range.. you should be able to tell the difference..

[Jon 264]

I still think you should take it to the range... it will probably surprise you. Looking at where the bullet might hit is a far cry from actually seeing... where the bullet... is hitting...

[vladtepes 1,060]

I still think you should take it to the range... it will probably surprise you. Looking at where the bullet might hit is a far cry from actually seeing... where the bullet... is hitting...

 

 

while that is definitely true.. and in the context of "run and gun knocking around at the range.. man sized COM.. etc.." parallax may have minimal effect.. as in you will likely still register a "hit".. as stated you can likely overcome what you are experiencing by being more careful when lining up shots.. but if you are making a critical shot.. or trying to obtain the fastest most reliable shot.. there are probably better (more expensive) options..

[raz-0 1,259]

Jeff, I think whats tripping you up is that you are assuming the dot has to be in the middle to be accuracte. It s not the case (in a quality red dot optic) If the dot is on your target, even if it is not in the center, it will hit whatever the dot is on.

 

 

Mostly true, especially once you get out to 50 yards or more. Most red dots are sold as being parallax free. They aren't. They just have little to none after a fairly short distance. Usually somewhere between 25-50 yards. Doing a 50 yard zero you can be pretty safe that you aren't screwing something up without working hard at screwing up. At 25, you can get bitten fairly easily and the error adds up quick as you move the target out farther.

 

I have shot the rifle. The existing sights are pretty close to on. So the point I'm trying to make is this: Let's say I look out the window and fix the iron sights on a knot in a tree or something far away. Since the sights are on, that is where the bullet will go. Also, since this optic co-witnesses, the red dot appears to show up right where it should be if I'm looking through the iron sights. But, while still holding the rifle as still as I can (i.e. still pointing at that knot in the tree) if I move my head (not the rifle) a little bit off the direct axis of the optic, the dot moves. To me that means the red dot is not in fact pointing where the bullet will go. That's as best as I can explain it.

 

Take your iron sights and move your head. Guess what, they aren't pointed where the bullet will go anymore either. Just the fact that they have two points of reference on the rifle so you know when you are outside the limitation of the sighting device because you can't see the front sight and rear sight at the same time. Especially with peep sights, you can still get parallax problems with head position without hitting that limit. The difference with the red dot is that it is easier to see.

[Shane45 807]

I think Im going to side with Vlad, I think there may some question to the functionality/quality of the red dot in question.

[M4BGRINGO 139]

I spent a good hour last night getting my new Red Dot sighted-in on my little Ruger 10/22. My wife was alongside me with a spotting scope and I kept shooting and adjusting until we were close, this was at 25 yards. I had a target with several small circles on it, so once we thought it was close I took three back to back shots and then had her look through the spotting scope. I eventually got it adjusted so I put the last 50 rounds within a 2" cicle. That was good enough for me! The Red Dot at 25 yards was just as big as my target, so getting bullseyes wasn't going to be very easy.

 

The same target at 10 yards was much easier! The Red Dot was spot-on and it was actually smaller than the target I was trying to hit. Best $40 I ever spent (so far!).

 

PS: I know what you mean about the dot moving-around when you move your head. It didn't seem to matter, As long as I put the dot on the target the bullet got to where I wanted it to.

[henrym 19]

I spent a good hour last night getting my new Red Dot sighted-in on my little Ruger 10/22. My wife was alongside me with a spotting scope and I kept shooting and adjusting until we were close, this was at 25 yards. I had a target with several small circles on it, so once we thought it was close I took three back to back shots and then had her look through the spotting scope. I eventually got it adjusted so I put the last 50 rounds within a 2" cicle. That was good enough for me! The Red Dot at 25 yards was just as big as my target, so getting bullseyes wasn't going to be very easy.

 

The same target at 10 yards was much easier! The Red Dot was spot-on and it was actually smaller than the target I was trying to hit. Best $40 I ever spent (so far!).

 

PS: I know what you mean about the dot moving-around when you move your head. It didn't seem to matter, As long as I put the dot on the target the bullet got to where I wanted it to.

 

A workaround for the dot being as big as your bullseye is to change your point of impact from the middle of the dot to the very top edge of the dot. Its a less abstract point of reference if you are looking to do more precise shooting.

[vladtepes 1,060]

The Red Dot at 25 yards was just as big as my target, so getting bullseyes wasn't going to be very easy.

 

sure it is...

 

you really do not need to see the target... assuming the target is center... so the best way (for me at least) to deal with dots that are too large.. is to just hold center of target... the reality is consistency is the most important factor.. if you consistently cover the target in the same way.. your shots should end up in the same place (baring human error, limitations of equipment, etc..) but the "red dot" being centered on the target SHOULD register pretty centered hits... so even if you are completely covering the bulls eye.. it really wont matter as long as the center of the target.. and the dot all line up.. the only time this wont work is if you can not visualize where center is.. due to an off center target.. or a target with multiple small targets on it..

 

I shoot steel plates at 150-200 yards in the same manner.. most of the time I can not clearly see dead center at 200 with iron sights... but getting the iron sights center in the target.. will register pretty good hits..

[M4BGRINGO 139]

Yes, I simply put the red dot in the center of the paper target and got plenty of bullseyes.

 

What I did learn today though was I had that red dot setup perfect for 25 yards, but up close and personal was a whole 'nother story! I found that I had to shoot at least 5 to 6 inches high to hit where I wanted to, about a 5 to 7 yard distance.

 

I need to practice with trying to use the stock iron sight without being able to see the stock rear sight to see if that is a possible work-around. Never would have thought that I could shoot better from 20 - 25 yards with the red dot than I could 7 yards away............