Explain red dot sights...

[vladtepes 1,060]

Yes, I simply put the red dot in the center of the paper target and got plenty of bullseyes.

 

What I did learn today though was I had that red dot setup perfect for 25 yards, but up close and personal was a whole 'nother story! I found that I had to shoot at least 5 to 6 inches high to hit where I wanted to, about a 5 to 7 yard distance.

 

I need to practice with trying to use the stock iron sight without being able to see the stock rear sight to see if that is a possible work-around. Never would have thought that I could shoot better from 20 - 25 yards with the red dot than I could 7 yards away............

 

 

can't think of many situation in which you would shoot a target 15 feet away with a rifle.. in one of the few instances that warrant that as long as you "just get on paper" it should be a good shot.. lol

[M4BGRINGO 139]

I was doing an outdoor shooting event that involed engaging target at various distances. I think they purposely setup some targets very close just to make things interesting for those of use with some sort of optics. The guys with iron sights were actually at an advantage in those situations. I'll get the hang of it, it's just for fun.

[Shane45 807]

M4, I dont feel disadvantaged. It's simply a matter of knowing your mechanical offset.

[Tactical Monkey 51]

M4, I dont feel disadvantaged. It's simply a matter of knowing your mechanical offset.

 

+1. It is vitally important to understand and compensate for mechanical offset if you use a rifle as your HD gun (loaded with proper HD ammo). In that arena almost all of your shots would be less than or about 15 yds, unless you live in a mansion

[hardline_42 7]

+1. It is vitally important to understand and compensate for mechanical offset if you use a rifle as your HD gun (loaded with proper HD ammo). In that arena almost all of your shots would be less than or about 15 yds, unless you live in a mansion

Probably off-topic, but given the issues with red dot sights and HD target distances, is there an equivalent "point-&-shoot" type of sight that would work in that role?

[vladtepes 1,060]

Probably off-topic, but given the issues with red dot sights and HD target distances, is there an equivalent "point-&-shoot" type of sight that would work in that role?

 

 

IMO red dot is the answer.. but it just requires range time as with anything (irons included) if you are 5in low.. at HD distance.. it is really not going to matter that much.. red dot in upper COM as opposed to dead center of mass.. or as explained in another post.. the difference between using the whole dot OR just the top of the dot.. at any rate.. you should be able to get on target with MINIMAL range time..

 

red dot (a good one) is very fast in reference to just getting onto the target..

 

further.. one has to inquire.. what is your HD firearm.. because if it is some kind of carbine it would not be correct to assume that ALL red dots will change this much at this distance.. variations in optics.. dot size (or triangle.. or dot in circle.. etc..) mounting position.. caliber of gun.. barrel length.. you get the idea.. will ALL change how the optic performs.... also.. if you are using a carbine for HD what type of ammo? what caliber? have neighbors? lol

[Shane45 807]

One more point to add as Vlad points out COM it really isnt going to matter much but it WILL matter greatly in a critical shot such at BG hidding behind your wife saying how he is going to cut her throat if you dont produce the ring from green lantern.

[vladtepes 1,060]

One more point to add as Vlad points out COM it really isnt going to matter mutch but it WILL matter greatly in a critical shot such at BG hidding behind your wife saying how he is going to cut her throat if you dont produce the ring from green lantern.

 

 

sorry I think of HD in the context of MY home.. and well.. if said BG went for my fiance first.. he would be saying something alright.. but it would be more like "yo get dis crazy **** away from me!!"

 

but your point is valid.. I think having a properly zeroed gun.. and an adequate amount of range time would likely make up for this variables..

[M4BGRINGO 139]

I plan on hitting the range and do 100 rounds at 25 yards, check the grouping, then move to 7 yards and see where I actually have to put the red dot to hit where I want to. No big deal. I am building this gun simply as a wimpy shooter for the wife and kids and for me to do outdoor rimfire action stuff for fun.

 

The great thing about the event I shoot in is that there is no limit for shots taken. If the first (or second) shot doesn't hit where you want to, re-adjust and shoot some more! As long as you don't run out of ammo you are fine (eats-up some time on the clock with the "wasted" shots). They score the best hits, extra hits are not a penalty (unless you hit a "good guy").

[AntZ 1]

Just saw a good explanation of reddot

http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_18/542595_1_3_cowitness_or_absolute_cowitness_.html

[hardline_42 7]

further.. one has to inquire.. what is your HD firearm.. because if it is some kind of carbine it would not be correct to assume that ALL red dots will change this much at this distance.. variations in optics.. dot size (or triangle.. or dot in circle.. etc..) mounting position.. caliber of gun.. barrel length.. you get the idea.. will ALL change how the optic performs.... also.. if you are using a carbine for HD what type of ammo? what caliber? have neighbors? lol

16"bbl Saiga .223 with Hornady TAP 55 grain JHPs. I have neighbors, but I think the rifle is a better choice than a handgun or shotgun for HD and, for me, over penetration concerns are secondary to stopping the bad guy.

[JackDaWack 2,895]

16"bbl Saiga .223 with Hornady TAP 55 grain JHPs. I have neighbors, but I think the rifle is a better choice than a handgun or shotgun for HD and, for me, over penetration concerns are secondary to stopping the bad guy.

Not sure why safety isn't your number one concern... when you decide safety comes second you become the bad guy.

[hardline_42 7]

Not sure why safety isn't your number one concern... when you decide safety comes second you become the bad guy.

Who's safety are we talking about here? Because when I'm in a situation where shooting an attacker is even an option, then my and my family's safety is my number one concern, and that means using the best tool for the job. I've heard plenty of "stories" on how a shotgun full of 00 buck will spread out into a 3 foot cloud of death within 6" of the muzzle, mow down all the bad guys lined up in your hallway and then plink against the far wall of your living room and fall to the floor. A .45 will cut anything in it's path in two, leave a wound channel the size of the Holland tunnel and then turn mid air to find the nearest wall stud to embed itself into. And you never miss because a 4" sight radius with a 2 foot eye relief held steady by arms pumping with adrenaline is deadly accurate. But, the second you mention a rifle for home defense, all of a sudden a .223 will zip right through your target, all of your kids, your grandmother, your neighbor's grandmother, a pet shop full of puppies and an orphanage, then boomerang back around and tag you in the nuts. The bottom line is that any round capable of stopping an attacker will penetrate walls, and, with most ammunition, man-stopping shotgun and pistol rounds penetrate more than a .223. So when I say that over penetration is "secondary," I mean it's a moot point when in comparison to the benefits of a rifle for my particular HD needs vs. other platforms that are supposedly (but not really) more "neighbor-friendly."

[vladtepes 1,060]

Who's safety are we talking about here? Because when I'm in a situation where shooting an attacker is even an option, then my and my family's safety is my number one concern, and that means using the best tool for the job. I've heard plenty of "stories" on how a shotgun full of 00 buck will spread out into a 3 foot cloud of death within 6" of the muzzle, mow down all the bad guys lined up in your hallway and then plink against the far wall of your living room and fall to the floor. A .45 will cut anything in it's path in two, leave a wound channel the size of the Holland tunnel and then turn mid air to find the nearest wall stud to embed itself into. And you never miss because a 4" sight radius with a 2 foot eye relief held steady by arms pumping with adrenaline is deadly accurate. But, the second you mention a rifle for home defense, all of a sudden a .223 will zip right through your target, all of your kids, your grandmother, your neighbor's grandmother, a pet shop full of puppies and an orphanage, then boomerang back around and tag you in the nuts. The bottom line is that any round capable of stopping an attacker will penetrate walls, and, with most ammunition, man-stopping shotgun and pistol rounds penetrate more than a .223. So when I say that over penetration is "secondary," I mean it's a moot point when in comparison to the benefits of a rifle for my particular HD needs vs. other platforms that are supposedly (but not really) more "neighbor-friendly."

 

 

correct me if I am wrong.. but I remember reading an article on self defense ammo... 223.. and carbines... and supposedly with proper ammo choice over penetration can be minimized.. so honestly.. I would tend to agree.. I also share your views on 12 gauge.. I think in MOST situations a 12 gauge is too much..

 

but I STILL think that a pistol caliber carbine is the ultimate in home defense firearm.. because it combines ALL aspects into one..

[hardline_42 7]

correct me if I am wrong.. but I remember reading an article on self defense ammo... 223.. and carbines... and supposedly with proper ammo choice over penetration can be minimized.. so honestly.. I would tend to agree.. I also share your views on 12 gauge.. I think in MOST situations a 12 gauge is too much..

 

but I STILL think that a pistol caliber carbine is the ultimate in home defense firearm.. because it combines ALL aspects into one..

Not sure if this is what you're referring to:

 

I'm not sure about a pistol caliber carbine. You might be right, but with all those gov't agencies switching from 9mm SMG's to an AR platform, it makes you wonder.

[vladtepes 1,060]

Not sure if this is what you're referring to:

 

I'm not sure about a pistol caliber carbine. You might be right, but with all those gov't agencies switching from 9mm SMG's to an AR platform, it makes you wonder.

 

 

I am not sure that is the EXACT diagram but yeah something similar to that... and when I say pistol caliber carbine.. I am referring to something loaded up with some HD ammo.. I really like my CX4 for this.. it is small.. light.. has literally no recoil.. and is on target every time..

 

now obviously a pistol caliber carbine is going to be throwing the round with more velocity than a pistol.. but with HD ammo.. INTO the target.. I don't think you will see much over penetration? now if you MISS that is a whole different story.. in that situation.. depending on the wall and structure ANY round COULD go anywhere?

[M4BGRINGO 139]

I was doing fine until I got to the part where the bullet comes back and hits me in the knads. Man, that's gonna hurt!

 

Anthony, which version of the Beretta do you have? I shot a friends CX4 one day chambered in 9mm. Man, that was a pleasant gun to shoot. He also has a 90-TWO which is a sweet gun. I bought my wife the 92FS, but she likes her 686 better.

 

I have a 96FS, and also a LOT of .45ACP, so one day I plan on getting a CX4, just don't know what caliber to get! I think my FFL has a .45ACP version just sitting in his stock room collecting dust. Maybe I'll have to relieve him of it one day....

 

A guy was shooting a 9mm Highpoint at an outdoor event in OB a few weeks ago, lemme tell you, he was awesome with that gun. I could buy three of them for the price of a single CX4, but, I like to stick with the "good stuff".

[vladtepes 1,060]

I was doing fine until I got to the part where the bullet comes back and hits me in the knads. Man, that's gonna hurt!

 

Anthony, which version of the Beretta do you have? I shot a friends CX4 one day chambered in 9mm. Man, that was a pleasant gun to shoot. He also has a 90-TWO which is a sweet gun. I bought my wife the 92FS, but she likes her 686 better.

 

I have a 96FS, and also a LOT of .45ACP, so one day I plan on getting a CX4, just don't know what caliber to get! I think my FFL has a .45ACP version just sitting in his stock room collecting dust. Maybe I'll have to relieve him of it one day....

 

A guy was shooting a 9mm Highpoint at an outdoor event in OB a few weeks ago, lemme tell you, he was awesome with that gun. I could buy three of them for the price of a single CX4, but, I like to stick with the "good stuff".

 

 

I have a CX4 storm in 40 S&W but that is because it is a companion carbine to my sidearm so I kept the calibers the same so that I would be shooting 40 across the board...the 45 storm was appealing to me but just didn't want to throw an odd caliber in there.. I think ANY of the storm line is nice...hi point.. eh...i dont care how many stories I hear of them running well.. I have handled the unit and just do not trust it..I have shot my cx4 a LOT an am really rough on them.. it has proven to be very reliable as well.. in fact I do not recall experiencing any failures with that gun.. I have it setup now with a short sling and surefire g2..it is ideal..

[Krdshrk 3,877]

 

I'm not sure I understand that - that's after penetrating a body, or penetrating a wall, THEN a body? Or just a wall?

[hardline_42 7]

I'm not sure I understand that - that's after penetrating a body, or penetrating a wall, THEN a body? Or just a wall?

That's centimeters of penetration into ballistic gel after penetrating a wall. Basically, the worst case scenario: you miss the target, punch through an interior wall and hit something/someone on the other side.

[AntZ 1]

Looks like .308 should be the choice for hd. Much bigger wound and yet less penetration than pistol runs.

[Shane45 807]

308 would be a bad choice unless you live alone in the middle of nowhere. As for handgun vs 5.56 rounds, a fairly comprehensive test was done at Gunsight if Im not mistaken. IIRC handgun rounds exited the test buildings more than rifle rounds by a fair margin. Ill see if my search fu is strong this AM.

[Shane45 807]

The Call-Out Bag

by Gunsite Training Center Staff

 

 

A Comparison of .223 Penetration vs. Handgun Calibers

The .223 shoulder-fired weapon systems (e.g., AUG, CAR) have received some recent interest as indoor tactical weapons for special operations teams. increased power, longer effective distances, and greater tactical flexibility have been cited as positive factors of the .223 systems over 9me SMG-type weapon systems. Other authors (Fackler, et all) have postulated greater capa-bility for tissue damage and incapacitation of the .223 rifle cartridge over the 9mm projectile fired from handguns or SMGs. Negative considerations for the indoor use of the .223 weapon systems focus on over-penetration of projectiles and possible subsequent liability.

Our effort was made to compare the penetration characteristics of various .223 bullets to various handgun bullets fired into test barriers representing indoor and outdoor building walls. We felt that the following test might mimic shots fired from inside a building, through the internal rooms, out the exterior wall, and into another similar building nearby. A comparison of wall penetration effects by a variety of handgun calibers versus the effects of .223 FMJ ball, .223 SP, and .223 HP, under these same conditions, was expected to substantiate other findings reported or provide new information to those interested in this area of ballistics.

Two interior test walls were constructed using a wood 2x4 frame with standard drywall board attached to both sides. Two exterior test walls were made using wooden frames with drywall board attached to one side and exterior grade T1-11 wooden siding attached on the other (exterior) side. R-19 fiberglass insulation batting (Dow Coming) was stapled inside the two exterior test wails. To maintain test medium consistency, no wooden cross beams, electrical fixtures, conduits, or electrical wiring were placed in any of the test walls.

The test walls were placed in the following sequence to mimic shots fired from. inside a building, through two internal rooms, out the building, and into another similarly constructed building:

A. Interior wall #1 was placed 8 feet from the shooting position.

B. Interior wail #2 was placed 8 feet beyond interior wall #1.

C. Exterior wall #1 was placed 8 feet beyond interior wail #2. (Exteri-or side facing away from the shooter.)

D. Exterior wall #2 was placed 15 feet beyond exterior wall #1. (Exterior side facing toward the shooter.)

All calibers tested were fired from a position 8 feet in front of interior wall #l, so the bullet trajectory would travel in sequence through each of the succeeding test walls. Each caliber tested was chronographed and all firing results were videotaped for archive files.

The following results were obtained:

1. All handgun calibers exited exterior wall #1. This means they exited the "house" after passing through two interior "rooms," then entered another "house" to impact into the berm. The handgun caliber which demonstrated the least penetration was .22 LR Lightning.

2. The only calibers which did NOT exit the "house" were .223 (5.56) soft point and hollow point loaded bullets.

3. All projectiles demonstrated directional changes in their trajectory after passing through the first interior wall. The greatest directional changes (10 inches+ yaw) were shown by 9mm and .40 S&W projectiles.

4. Directional changes in bullet trajectory appeared to increase in magnitude with each test wall the projectile passed through.

The penetration characteristics of projectiles have long been believed to be primarily determined by a relationship of bullet mass, bullet shape, bullet velocity, and bullet construction. The penetration differences of .223 soft point and hollow point projectiles versus the effects from .223 full metal jacket may be due to differences in bullet construction. The differential effects on penetration due to bullet construction shown with the .223 are different and appear greater in magnitude than those encountered when handgun bullet construction is modified. Since .223 projectile velocities are threefold greater than those of handgun projectiles, the increased magnitude of bullet velocity might account for the differences in bullet trajectory and penetration distance. The deviated trajectory of hollow point handgun projectiles was also greater than the deviation found with full metal jacketed handgun bullets; again, possibly due to contact point deformation. The preceding study more than ever identifies the need for a personal emphasis of marksmanship and tactical fundamentals. The shooter is responsible for the bullets that go downrange. Practice, be aware, manage your trigger, and watch your front sight!

Many thanks to Jack Furr, Ron Benson, Pete Wright, and Seth NadeI, U.S. Customs, for conducting and reporting this test.

.22 LR 40 gr Lightning 899 fps Captured in exterior wall #2

9mm 147gr Win JHP 948 fps Captured in exterior wall #2

9mm 147 gr Win JHP 1004 fps Exited exterior wall #2

.40 S&W 180 gr FMJ 941 fps Exited exterior wall #2

.40 S&W 180 gr Black Talon JHP 981 fps Exited exterior wall #2

.45 ACP 230 gr Win FMJ ball 867 fps Captured in exterior wall #2

.45 ACP 230 gr HydraShok JHP 851 fps Exited exterior wall #2

.223 (5.56) 55 gr Fed FMJ ball 2956 fps Exited exterior wall #2

.223 (5.56) 55 gr Rem SP 3019 fps Captured in exterior wall #2

.223 (5.56) 55 gr Fed JHP 3012 fps Captured in exterior wall #2

.223/5.56 Penetration Tests vs. .40 S&W and 12 ga. Slug

Overview

The research on the penetration of .223 ammunition has been completed. In an effort to make research more meaningful, testing consisted of handgun and shotgun ammunition in the same testing medium. The final results were that the .223 demonstrated less penetration capability than the 12 gauge slug and the .40S&W [handgun round].

Testing Medium Type 250A Ordnance Gelatin was cast into blocks, 6"x6"x16". The process used is that which is recommended by Col. M. Fackler, Director of the US Army Wound Ballistics Laboratory. This is a 10% mixture, 1Kg of gelatin to 9000ml of H2O. This type of gelatin accurately simulates human body tissue in terms of bullet penetration.

A small piece of wall was constructed to duplicate the standard exterior walls found in [the Pacific Northwest] area. This piece of wall was sheeted with ½" wafer board, covered with a 2nd piece of ½" wafer board to simulate siding. This wall was built using a 2x4 frame and finished on the inside with ½" sheet rock. The interior [of the wall] was lined with fiberglass insulation.

Weapons Used

CAR-15, cal .223 Rem./5.56x45mm with a 16" barrel.

Glock M22, cal .40S&W.

Remington 870, 12 ga.

Ammunition Used

Federal .223 Remington, 55 grain HP.

Winchester .40S&W, 180 grain HP.

Federal 12 ga., 2 ¾", rifled slug.

Procedure

All rounds were fired from a distance of 12 feet. After each round was fired, its penetration was recorded and bullet performance noted. After a bullet was fired into the [bare] gelatin, another bullet of the same type was fired through the section of wall and into the gelatin. This was done in order to determine its penetration potential in the event a stray round were to hit the wall of a building.

Results Caliber Testing medium Penetration Condition of bullet

.223 Rem. gelatin only 9.5" two pieces

.223 Rem. wall & gelatin 5.5" * fragmented

.40S&W gelatin only 13.5" mushroomed

.40S&W wall & gelatin 22" * no deformation

.40S&W wall & gelatin 22" * no deformation

.40S&W† wall & gelatin 19.5" * slight deformation

12 ga. wall & gelatin 27.5" mushroomed

* these measurements do not include penetration of the 6" wall.

† CCI Gold Dot.

Summary

The 55 grain HP .223 has less penetration than any of the other ammunition tested. Based on the results of this testing, there appears to be no basis for concern regarding the overpenetration of the .223 [HP] round. In fact, it seems even safer in this regard than .40 S&W handgun ammunition.

The hollow point cavity in the .40S&W round filled with material when shot through the wall. This caused [these bullets] to fail to expand when they entered the gelatin. As a result, they penetrated 8.5" farther than when shot directly into the gelatin.

When the .223 [HP] was shot through he wall it began to fragment and as a result penetrated the gelatin only 5.5".

Because the .223 [HP] begins to break up on impact, it has less potential for damage or injury than the 12 ga. in the event of a ricochet. The .223 [HP] is obviously safer in an urban environment than the 12 ga. with slugs or buckshot.

Additional testing conducted proved that the .223 would penetrate a car door or glass. The .223 rounds fired into windshields began to break up after entering the glass and did not retain much energy. In most cases these rounds split in two.

ALL OF THE INFORMATION IN THIS ARTICLE IS BASED UPON THE PERSONAL EXPERIENCE OF INDIVIDUALS WHO MAY BE USING SPECIAL TOOLS, PRODUCTS, EQUIPMENT AND COMPONENTS UNDER PARTICULAR CONDITIONS AND CIRCUMSTANCES, SOME OR ALL OF WHICH MAY NOT BE REPORTED, NOR OTHERWISE VERIFIED IN THIS ARTICLE. NOTHING HEREIN IS INTENDED TO CONSTITUTE A MANUAL FOR THE USE OF ANY PRODUCT OR THE CARRYING OUT OF ANY PROCEDURE OR PROCESS. THE WRITERS, EDITORS, AND PUBLISHERS OF THIS ARTICLE ACCEPT NO RESPONSIBILITY FOR ANY LIABILITY, INJURIES OR DAMAGES ARISING OUT OF ANY PERSON’S ATTEMPT TO RELY UPON ANY INFORMATION CONTAINED HEREIN.

__________________

Colt M16/AR15,1911 & Glock Armorer.

Certified Firearms Instructor & Urban Rifle Instructor.

Completed SWAT Entry Team and SWAT Sniper courses.

NRA Endowment Member

USPSA A 56876 B class

[Krdshrk 3,877]

Good find.

[hardline_42 7]

So, I didn't read through all that, but basically it says that bad guys will drop like dominoes at the sound of me racking my shotgun loaded with "non-lethal" ammo, right?

[JackDaWack 2,895]

Who's safety are we talking about here? Because when I'm in a situation where shooting an attacker is even an option, then my and my family's safety is my number one concern, and that means using the best tool for the job. I've heard plenty of "stories" on how a shotgun full of 00 buck will spread out into a 3 foot cloud of death within 6" of the muzzle, mow down all the bad guys lined up in your hallway and then plink against the far wall of your living room and fall to the floor. A .45 will cut anything in it's path in two, leave a wound channel the size of the Holland tunnel and then turn mid air to find the nearest wall stud to embed itself into. And you never miss because a 4" sight radius with a 2 foot eye relief held steady by arms pumping with adrenaline is deadly accurate. But, the second you mention a rifle for home defense, all of a sudden a .223 will zip right through your target, all of your kids, your grandmother, your neighbor's grandmother, a pet shop full of puppies and an orphanage, then boomerang back around and tag you in the nuts. The bottom line is that any round capable of stopping an attacker will penetrate walls, and, with most ammunition, man-stopping shotgun and pistol rounds penetrate more than a .223. So when I say that over penetration is "secondary," I mean it's a moot point when in comparison to the benefits of a rifle for my particular HD needs vs. other platforms that are supposedly (but not really) more "neighbor-friendly."

It's not that i find your tool for the job to be overkill(rifle), its just that your primary concern should be the safety of others, not just your own. Being aware of what is behind your target is just one of many important things you should be considering before pulling the trigger. No one wins when the bad guy is dead and your neighbor is killed from a stray bullet. Maybe unlikely circumstance, but even if a bullet hits a neighbors house they could sue the bajesus out of you. This is something that seriously poses a problem for houses located in close proximity to each other. If you lived out in the sticks then i would agree that over penetration wont really matter, because your aware that nothing is behind your target. But if you live in an urban town, city, or apartment u should be very concerned with Over penetration.

[hardline_42 7]

It's not that i find your tool for the job to be overkill(rifle), its just that your primary concern should be the safety of others, not just your own. Being aware of what is behind your target is just one of many important things you should be considering before pulling the trigger. No one wins when the bad guy is dead and your neighbor is killed from a stray bullet. Maybe unlikely circumstance, but even if a bullet hits a neighbors house they could sue the bajesus out of you.

I understand what you're saying and I don't think it's unreasonable. I honestly thought your comment was thinly veiled disapproval of my choosing a rifle as my primary HD tool with the usual "facts" about rifle over-penetration as the reason.

 

With regards to minding the safety of those around me, I think it's an important consideration, no doubt. But I also think it needs to be tempered with my primary objective for owning a gun, which is to keep myself and my family safe. If concern over my neighbor being the victim of my stray bullet was my primary objective, I wouldn't own a gun in the first place. Granted, that doesn't preclude me from doing everything in my power to prevent that from happening (shot placement, training, ammo selection, training, establishing safe "shooting lanes" on my property, training, etc.).

[vladtepes 1,060]

It's not that i find your tool for the job to be overkill(rifle), its just that your primary concern should be the safety of others, not just your own. Being aware of what is behind your target is just one of many important things you should be considering before pulling the trigger. No one wins when the bad guy is dead and your neighbor is killed from a stray bullet. Maybe unlikely circumstance, but even if a bullet hits a neighbors house they could sue the bajesus out of you. This is something that seriously poses a problem for houses located in close proximity to each other. If you lived out in the sticks then i would agree that over penetration wont really matter, because your aware that nothing is behind your target. But if you live in an urban town, city, or apartment u should be very concerned with Over penetration.

 

 

accountable for every round you fire..

[vjf915 456]

I understand what you're saying and I don't think it's unreasonable. I honestly thought your comment was thinly veiled disapproval of my choosing a rifle as my primary HD tool with the usual "facts" about rifle over-penetration as the reason.

 

With regards to minding the safety of those around me, I think it's an important consideration, no doubt. But I also think it needs to be tempered with my primary objective for owning a gun, which is to keep myself and my family safe. If concern over my neighbor being the victim of my stray bullet was my primary objective, I wouldn't own a gun in the first place. Granted, that doesn't preclude me from doing everything in my power to prevent that from happening (shot placement, training, ammo selection, training, establishing safe "shooting lanes" on my property, training, etc.).

I think you're missing the point. If you choose the right caliber, with the right kind of ammo....it won't matter as much because the ammo won't go through to hit your neighbor. Nobody is suggesting that you don't use your rifle to protect yourself or your family for fear that you may hit your neighbors. We're suggesting that you select the right ammo now, so that God forbid you do need to use it....it won't be a possibility.

[AntZ 1]

308 would be a bad choice unless you live alone in the middle of nowhere.

I was what I thought until I saw the test result.