Legality of apartment buildings putting a no firearms clause in your lease?

[Matt 0]

This hasn't actually happened to me but was just thinking about it as I wouldn't put it past some landlords in NJ... Can the landlord put a no firearms clause in a lease? Is it legally binding? What would happen if you had guns anyway?

[hd2000fxdl 422]

I'll have to wait until someone in the know answers but initial thought is how can someone restrict your 2A right at home. I know dog's and cats may be not allowed but they are not a right.

 

Harry

[Pizza Bob 1,488]

It is the landlord's private property. If they want to put a "no guns" clause in the lease they would be within their rights to do so. To try to add that condition ex post facto would be a no go.

 

If it was a condition in the lease and you violated it, you would be subject to the terms of the lease, which probably would mean eviction.

 

It's not your "home" until you sign the lease. The lease is a binding contract.

 

IANAL and I didn't stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night, but that's my story and I'm sticking to it.

 

Adios,

 

Pizza Bob

[madmnk78 3]

It is the landlord's private property. If they want to put a "no guns" clause in the lease they would within their rights to do so. To try to add that condition ex post facto would be a no go.

 

If it was a condition in the lease and you violated it, you would be subject to the terms of the lease, which probably would mean eviction.

 

It's not your "home" until you sign the lease. The lease is a binding contract.

 

IANAL and I didn't stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night, but that's my story and I'm sticking to it.

 

Adios,

 

Pizza Bob

 

 

If i'm remembering lease laws correctly, it could just end up like anti pet laws that only get enforced if they want you out (unlikely in this rental market). I'm fairly sure the landlord can only enter your apartment without your consent for very specific purposes (ie, fix a pipe in your kitchen leaking downstairs), and they do NOT have the right to search your apartment for firearms.

[Matt 0]

If i'm remembering lease laws correctly, it could just end up like anti pet laws that only get enforced if they want you out (unlikely in this rental market). I'm fairly sure the landlord can only enter your apartment without your consent for very specific purposes (ie, fix a pipe in your kitchen leaking downstairs), and they do NOT have the right to search your apartment for firearms.

 

So no criminal issues just the possibility of getting evicted if they found out somehow?

[Pizza Bob 1,488]

So no criminal issues just the possibility of getting evicted if they found out somehow?

 

 

I would think the only criminal issue would be if LE got involved with the eviction and found the guns were not legally owned.

 

JMHO

 

Adios,

 

Pizza Bob

[Rifleman1 32]

IANAL and I didn't stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night, but that's my story and I'm sticking to it.

 

These threads are certainly thought provoking and you guys are certainly keeping me on my toes...

 

IANAL is a Usenet and chat abbreviation (acronym) for "I am not a lawyer".^[1] A related abbreviation, TINLA, stands for "This is not legal advice" and may be used by either non-lawyers seeking to avoid accusations of unauthorized practice of law or lawyers clarifying that they do not have enough information to provide situation-specific advice and are not making any recommendation to the particular addressee of their remarks.

 

 

[madmnk78 3]

So no criminal issues just the possibility of getting evicted if they found out somehow?

 

I agree with Pizza Bob - only in a LEO gets involved in the eviction, and there's something illegal but IANAL..not even close

[HuntingPaper 62]

I moved to a new place this last April and the lease agreement had a no firearms clause, I told the landlord that I wasn't able to move in because firearms and reloading was a very important part of my life. After a brief conversation and me showing him that everything that I do is perfectly legal we signed an adendum allowing me to have them and reload ammo in my house. Like Bob said landlord has the right to ban them on the lease but comunication can take you a long way

[halbautomatisch 60]

Something else to digest:

 

A landlord is not allowed to exclude people because of race, gender, or sexual orientation. Excluding people based on firearms ownership COULD be considered discriminatory. I know some public housing authorities were sued over this and the gun owners prevailed (or the authorities give in - don't remember which).

[JackDaWack 2,895]

Something else to digest:

 

A landlord is not allowed to exclude people because of race, gender, or sexual orientation. Excluding people based on firearms ownership COULD be considered discriminatory. I know some public housing authorities were sued over this and the gun owners prevailed (or the authorities give in - don't remember which).

Excluding a gun owner from leasing is not the same thing as refusing to have firearms on the property.

[KpdPipes 388]

I would think the only criminal issue would be if LE got involved with the eviction and found the guns were not legally owned.

 

JMHO

 

Adios,

 

Pizza Bob

 

the only LE involvement in evictions (Unless there is some other underlying problem such as vandalism, or disputes) is when the County Sheriff serves the Eviction Notice. Municipal/City LE do not get in the middle of that nonsense.

[Pizza Bob 1,488]

Municipal/City LE do not get in the middle of that nonsense.

 

 

I was thinking along the lines of tenant assaulting the landlord, or refusing to leave (defiant trespass).

[LorenzoS 100]

An apartment is private property, however landlords are not completely free to make whatever restrictions they want if they violate Constitutionally protected civil rights. Landlords cannot exclude people based on race or religion. They cannot restrict a tenant from possessing a Koran or Bible in the apartment, or prevent the tenant from writing books or newspaper articles.

 

I would expect that same limitation would apply to 2A rights just like 1A rights. Of course 2A rights are violated all the time here in NJ. It wold make an interesting case.

[NFRs2000NYC 7]

Landlords have no right to have a no gun clause in the lease (there might be one, but it would never stick in court) as firearms are legal in the state of NJ. This would be an equivalent of a no tv clause, as crazy as it sounds. Furthermore, you are not under ANY legal obligation to INFORM ANYONE that you own a firearm in your own home. What if you move in, and then decide you want a gun? So now you cannot purchase a legal item because your landlord said so? Fat chance. They would NEVER EVER get an eviction notice, and you would probably be awarded damages for a frivolous lawsuit.

 

Contrary to popular belief, the landlord NEVER EVER has a right to enter your premises after the lease is signed. They may enter without your consent ONLY in emergencies. For anything else, they need your permission, and if you do not give it to them, they need to go to court to GET permission. NJ is extremely pro tenant. Don't sweat it.

[NFRs2000NYC 7]

I moved to a new place this last April and the lease agreement had a no firearms clause, I told the landlord that I wasn't able to move in because firearms and reloading was a very important part of my life. After a brief conversation and me showing him that everything that I do is perfectly legal we signed an adendum allowing me to have them and reload ammo in my house. Like Bob said landlord has the right to ban them on the lease but comunication can take you a long way

 

What your landlord did is illegal, but since noone would ever take a landlord you don't have to court, the mess goes on. Like I said, you are under no obligation to divulge any information.

 

Many people here say "it's private property, he can do whatever he wants. You, the tenant, agree to said terms, so if you sign, you agree and must abide by the contract." That is nothing but legal jibberish. No judge would EVER give an eviction notice to a rent paying tenant, simply because they own a LEGAL firearm.

 

The reality is, it is the LANDLORD that CHOOSES to become a landlord, and now must abide by 5 million restrictions, including allowing tenants to bring anything and everything into said dwelling providing it causes no damage (pets, smoking) and no ordinance violations (noise.) Once you rent, you own the property for that duration. The landlord loses almost all claims to the property. He cannot search, he can't do ANYTHING other than sweep the sidewalk. You, the renter on the other hand, have the LEGAL RIGHT to do whatever/wherever/ you please, as long as it does not violate any laws, and LEGAL restrictions on the lease, of which there are basically two in NJ at this point...pets and smoking. Like a job interview, if you get a candidate you don't like, you can tell them "oh the apartment is taken," but if you see a "no firearms clause" in your lease, sign it anyway, it's just meaningless jibberish in civil court.

 

 

BTW, here is a clause that I bet a number of you here have, but never knew...who here lives in a development? Do they have a no satellite dish clause? Illegal. By federal law, they must allow them. Cable company competition, but even today (law is pretty old) they are still sticking it into their lease contracts.

[NFRs2000NYC 7]

After talking to my wife (attorney) here is what she said...

 

A lease is a private contract, which means (as all of us here failed to do) if you cannot find a specific law FORBIDDING IT or ALLOWING IT, then it is 100% civil. Now, after the lease is signed, the Heller case comes into play, which allows you to have a gun inside your home. Your landlord would have no LEGAL way of knowing you own a gun, so the original question is moot. Furthermore, in NJ, there are absolutely no laws that would entitle the landlord to receive ANY damages or an eviction, so, sign away, you have nothing to fear.

[Pizza Bob 1,488]

No judge would EVER give an eviction notice to a rent paying tenant, simply because they own a LEGAL firearm.

 

 

You're right. But they would sign an eviction notice if the tenant violated the terms of the lease. The lease is a binding contract, entered into freely by both parties. As long as the terms of the lease do not violate any laws, there would be no grounds to invalidate it.

 

Gun owners are not a protected class. Private property rights trump your right to have firearms on someone else's property. You can put anything you want into a lease as long as it doesn't violate civil rights or discriminate against a protected class.

 

In states where carry is legal, store owners can put up "no weapons" signs. In some states these carry the weight of law, but even in those where they don't (PA for example), if you are found to have a weapon on your person, and ask to leave, and refuse, it is defiant trespass - property owner's rights.

 

There have been a number of cases recently regarding property rights of business owners barring firearms on their property - targeting employees that may carry to work and then leave the firearm in their car parked on company property. In some the property owners prevailed, but in the ones where they didn't, it was because the court ruled the employee's automobile was an extension of their home - pretty slick way for property rights to triumph in both results.

 

Adios,

 

Pizza Bob

[Pizza Bob 1,488]

Now, after the lease is signed, the Heller case comes into play, which allows you to have a gun inside your home.

 

 

So, you signed the lease with intent to defraud? The heller case was not about forcing private parties to allow firearms on their premesis, it was about government entities passing laws that prohibited weapons within their borders and McDonald reinforced that and incorporated it via the 14th amendment. Neither decision had anything to do with private property rights, they had to do with the rights of citizens being unjustly governed.

 

Adios,

 

Pizza Bob

[mikeyboyeee 66]

Landlords have no right to have a no gun clause in the lease (there might be one, but it would never stick in court) as firearms are legal in the state of NJ. This would be an equivalent of a no tv clause, as crazy as it sounds. Furthermore, you are not under ANY legal obligation to INFORM ANYONE that you own a firearm in your own home. What if you move in, and then decide you want a gun? So now you cannot purchase a legal item because your landlord said so? Fat chance. They would NEVER EVER get an eviction notice, and you would probably be awarded damages for a frivolous lawsuit.

 

Contrary to popular belief, the landlord NEVER EVER has a right to enter your premises after the lease is signed. They may enter without your consent ONLY in emergencies. For anything else, they need your permission, and if you do not give it to them, they need to go to court to GET permission. NJ is extremely pro tenant. Don't sweat it.

 

 

AND you can have the landlord arrested for trespassing if they enter without your permission!

[HuntingPaper 62]

The landlord do have the right to ban guns in the property and you have the right to not rent the place. When you are going to lease a place you are presented with a set of rules that you must abide and especially if you move to and apartment complex. Those contracts have several rules and restrictions to try to protect the place and the other tenants, like I said if you explain your situation you cand get manu of those removed. I know that I don't have to disclose anything but I don't have any problem with people knowing that I have guns since is absolutely legal. NFRs2000NYC You are spreading false informaton and giving legal advise without being a lawyer.

[raz-0 1,259]

Landlords can have a no firearms clause. Perfectly legal. The only thing you have to worry about if you break it is being evicted and owing them money according to the terms of the contracts. HOWEVER, there is multiple precedents that if a landlord restricts your ability to own firearms, they assume a degree of liability for your safety. The examples I have seen of this have all been complexes rather than mom & pop type places. Obviously because complexes have more assets worth suing for, so those are the cases that got taken.

 

Most large complexes in NJ don't have a firearms clause because they know there is liability associated with it.

[LorenzoS 100]

In the Heller decision the Supreme Court affirmed the constitutionally protected right of an individual to own a firearm, and emphasized that this right is paramount above all in the home. Therefore I seriously believe that any restriction infringing on that right by a landlord would be unconstitutional.

 

I am pretty sure the Constitution and the Supreme Court trump Sluggo the Landlord.

[Pizza Bob 1,488]

In the Heller decision the Supreme Court affirmed the constitutionally protected right of an individual to own a firearm, and emphasized that this right is paramount above all in the home. Therefore I seriously believe that any restriction infringing on that right by a landlord would be unconstitutional.

 

 

Not unless gun owners became a protected class while I wasn't looking. Again, the decisions quoted were to protect the citizen from an overzealous government restricting your rights. You have a choice whether to rent or not and whether to enter into a binding agreement with the landlord. It does not become your "home" until the lease is signed, or until you buy it. The landlord's property rights trump your right to possess a firearm on the landlord's property.

 

Adios,

 

Pizza Bob

[LorenzoS 100]

Not unless gun owners became a protected class while I wasn't looking. Again, the decisions quoted were to protect the citizen from an overzealous government from restricting your rights. You have a choice whether to rent or not and whether to enter into a binding agreement with the landlord. It does not become your "home" until the lease is signed, or until you buy it. The landlord's property rights trump your right to possess a firearm on the landlord's property.

 

Adios,

 

Pizza Bob

Good point, you might be right. It would definitely make an interesting case.

[halbautomatisch 60]

You're right. But they would sign an eviction notice if the tenant violated the terms of the lease. The lease is a binding contract, entered into freely by both parties. As long as the terms of the lease do not violate any laws, there would be no grounds to invalidate it.

 

Gun owners are not a protected class. Private property rights trump your right to have firearms on someone else's property. You can put anything you want into a lease as long as it doesn't violate civil rights or discriminate against a protected class.

 

In states where carry is legal, store owners can put up "no weapons" signs. In some states these carry the weight of law, but even in those where they don't (PA for example), if you are found to have a weapon on your person, and ask to leave, and refuse, it is defiant trespass - property owner's rights.

 

There have been a number of cases recently regarding property rights of business owners barring firearms on their property - targeting employees that may carry to work and then leave the firearm in their car parked on company property. In some the property owners prevailed, but in the ones where they didn't, it was because the court ruled the employee's automobile was an extension of their home - pretty slick way for property rights to triumph in both results.

 

Adios,

 

Pizza Bob

There are major differences between what a business can do to restrict certain activities and what a landlord can do to restrict certain activities. A business can ask anyone to leave for almost any reason since it is their property and any individual doesn't have a right to be there. When a property is leased to someone, they are taking possession of it, and it is now under their control. NJ has very strong tenant rights, there are only a few, very limited reasons that a person can be evicted from a residential home. I would be surprised if owning a firearm was one of them.

[halbautomatisch 60]

Landlords can have a no firearms clause. Perfectly legal. The only thing you have to worry about if you break it is being evicted and owing them money according to the terms of the contracts. HOWEVER, there is multiple precedents that if a landlord restricts your ability to own firearms, they assume a degree of liability for your safety. The examples I have seen of this have all been complexes rather than mom & pop type places. Obviously because complexes have more assets worth suing for, so those are the cases that got taken.

 

Most large complexes in NJ don't have a firearms clause because they know there is liability associated with it.

Sure, a landlord can have no firearms clause, but weather it's enforceable is another question.

 

I am a contractor, and have had companies make me sign lien wavers (which prohibit me from putting mechanics liens on their property for non payment) as part of their contract. Lien wavers in NJ and DE are not enforceable, they are in PA and are standard practice over there. What this means is that, as a contractor I could still file a mechanics lien against them for non payment, no matter what the contract says.

 

Just because it's written in a contract doesn't mean it's legal.

[NFRs2000NYC 7]

So, you signed the lease with intent to defraud? The heller case was not about forcing private parties to allow firearms on their premesis, it was about government entities passing laws that prohibited weapons within their borders and McDonald reinforced that and incorporated it via the 14th amendment. Neither decision had anything to do with private property rights, they had to do with the rights of citizens being unjustly governed.

 

Adios,

 

Pizza Bob

 

Thats the thing though, a business is not rented by employees or patrons, thus, the private property rights are in play. When a tenant is renting, it is THEIR property. Now, honestly, we can go back and forth on this, but in reality, the landlord would NEVER spend the legal fees to try and evict someone who is paying rent, and will end up losing anyway. Furthermore, your other word..."fraud"....fraud to a landlord would imply that I somehow cost them money, which in this case, I didn't.

[NFRs2000NYC 7]

The landlord do have the right to ban guns in the property and you have the right to not rent the place. When you are going to lease a place you are presented with a set of rules that you must abide and especially if you move to and apartment complex. Those contracts have several rules and restrictions to try to protect the place and the other tenants, like I said if you explain your situation you cand get manu of those removed. I know that I don't have to disclose anything but I don't have any problem with people knowing that I have guns since is absolutely legal. NFRs2000NYC You are spreading false informaton and giving legal advise without being a lawyer.

 

I can say the same thing about your post. Landlords have the LEGAL RIGHT to put a "no hair,no mustache, no boobs, whatever clause" however, that does not mean it will hold up in court, as proven countless times, and is just crap on paper. I have had landlords who had a "10 pm no noise clause", which is LEGAL to put on paper, but ILLEGAL to enforce. I've also provided an excellent example that is used today, ie, no satellite dish. Jurisdictional dead end...you can put whatever you like on paper, it does not mean it can be enforced.

[PK90 3,570]

What about the no pets clause on most rental agreements? Unenforceable?