CCW holder shoots robber, charged with murder

[DevsAdvocate 112]

Because at that point, the crime is over, you are no longer under threat of mortal harm, and the same US Constitution that guarantees our right to keep and bear arms also guarantees them the right to not be "deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law."

 

That is only intended to stop the Gov't from depriving you of those things, not regular citizens.

 

Also, let's flip it around, of this guy stole my money/car/etc, then isn't he depriving me of my property without due process of law?

[vladtepes 1,060]

You already stopped the attack and saved the women's life if the thug runs. At that point let the cops get him. If he stopped attacking her and started advancing toward you then you would be just to open fire. Shooting someone in the leg is a gamble, you might miss, and wind up killing. Either way you will find yourself in a heap of crap. Even being a cop your not allowed to open fire at will, you must use deadly force as a last resort. And The way I see it, being dead you don't learn a lesson, being in jail for years is much worse.

 

 

sorry.. we will agree to disagree.. violent people do not go home and sleep it off.. someone who would attack someone and "beat them within an inch of their life" is not someone having a bad day..

 

so while I AGREE that the LAW prevents shooting a fleeing attacker in NJ (for example).. I am stating I disagree with the law... and apparently some states (FL, TX, etc..) agree with me.. I can't help but think society has shifted the views of people from stopping criminals to coddling them..

 

if you "stick a weapon up to someone's throat" and threaten them bodily harm.. YOU opened the door.. and it may be an old school mentality.. but at that point.. you get what you get..

 

like I said though.. I will respectfully agree to disagree..

[Zell959 40]

Also, let's flip it around, of this guy stole my money/car/etc, then isn't he depriving me of my property without due process of law?

 

Someone else depriving you of your property without due process of law does automatically grant you the authority to seek out a restitution of your own design.

[KpdPipes 388]

That's a fault of our supposed 'Justice System', not me. We've become a civilization which coddles and rewards criminals, and ultimately punishes those who are acting righteously.

 

 

Yet if it was me or one of mine you'd be screaming for my head........

[DevsAdvocate 112]

This here ain't the old west and you're no Rooster Cogburn! We can't go around willy-nilly shooting escaping robbers in the back. Cops can't even throw their heavy Motorola MT-500 Walkie-Talkies (affectionately called "Bricks") at bad guys stealing bicycles anymore! And yes, the thief got hit with the radio in his head and crashed the bike & died!

 

Once the bad guy runs away from you, the window to engage is over. UNLESS he's running towards another potential victim with a weapon in his hands or you're in fear for their life, etc. Even then you have to be careful---shooting someone in the back doesn't look good no matter how much the guy is doing wrong, unless he's going to kill someone else.

 

Arghhhh!! For real? The bike thief had it coming though!

[StarWarsGeek45 5]

This here ain't the old west and you're no Rooster Cogburn!

 

Let me guess, you're a cop?

[Jeff 13]

Anyone seen this? No charges filed. Ah, Texas.

 

http://www.opposingviews.com/i/society/crime/man-shot-butt-while-stealing-fake-marijuana-fake-gun

[Smokin .50 1,907]

Arghhhh!! For real? The bike thief had it coming though!

Yes it's for REAL! Happened over 10 years ago. Maybe in NYC? Big Motorola Radios like the MT-500 stood almost a foot tall and weighed 2-3 pounds or more. Took a lot of skill to hit the thief in the head as he was riding the stolen bike away, LOL! Wrote about in the papers too! I don't remember what happened to the cop, although the family of the Perp did sue him!

[Smokin .50 1,907]

Let me guess, you're a cop?

No, I'm NOT a Cop!

 

I shoot better than most Cops, LOL! Present company excepted, LOL!

[Pizza Bob 1,488]

Cops can't even throw their heavy Motorola MT-500 Walkie-Talkies (affectionately called "Bricks") at bad guys stealing bicycles anymore!

 

 

I have a feeling they were used in that mode more than a few times. I have a friend who is former Secret Service. He was assigned to the detail protecting Gov George Wallace during his presidential bid. (Tells you how old I am). He was running along side the motorcade when someone ran out of the crowd, at the car, closest to my friend. Not enough time to do much of anything, so he did what came naturally....he coldcocked him with the Motorola. Said he went down like a sack of wet noodles. He related the story, because we designed an IPSC stage around the incident. He's a gunwriter, mainly for Combat Handguns now, as well as being a PI. BTW, we used a 15" long section of 2x4 to simulate the Motorola in our stage.

 

Adios,

 

Pizza Bob

[KpdPipes 388]

Yes it's for REAL! Happened over 10 years ago. Maybe in NYC? Big Motorola Radios like the MT-500 stood almost a foot tall and weighed 2-3 pounds or more. Took a lot of skill to hit the thief in the head as he was riding the stolen bike away, LOL! Wrote about in the papers too! I don't remember what happened to the cop, although the family of the Perp did sue him!

The MT-500 may or may not have left a distinct imprint of the Motorola Logo on the foreheads of said miscreants......or so i've heard We switched off from the Bricks (in converta-comms) in around 1993 or so.

[Smokin .50 1,907]

I have a feeling they were used in that mode more than a few times. I have a friend who is former Secret Service. He was assigned to the detail protecting Gov George Wallace during his presidential bid. (Tells you how old I am). He was running along side the motorcade when someone ran out of the crowd, at the car, closest to my friend. Not enough time to do much of anything, so he did what came naturally....he coldcocked him with the Motorola. Said he went down like a sack of wet noodles. He related the story, because we designed an IPSC stage around the incident. He's a gunwriter, mainly for Combat Handguns now, as well as being a PI. BTW, we used a 15" long section of 2x4 to simulate the Motorola in our stage.

 

Adios,

 

Pizza Bob

Nothin quite like a Motorola "Brick"! You almost couldn't kill those radios! I would have LOVED to shoot that stage with you guys and meet your friend and shake his hand! BRAVO!

[Smokin .50 1,907]

The MT-500 may or may not have left a distinct imprint of the Motorola Logo on the foreheads of said miscreants......or so i've heard We switched off from the Bricks (in converta-comms) in around 1993 or so.

I remember those convert-a-coms. The only thing the designers didn't figure on was coffee & cigarette ashes & butts finding their way into the units, LOL! Weakest link in the chain was the constant charging of the Nicad batteries. After a while, they developed a memory, and since you had to put the radio into the convert-a-com to use the car speaker, you'd over-charge the battery or charge it too soon and thereby develop the memory syndrome. But while the battery was fairly new, they worked really well, especially with UHF repeater systems with voting receivers. Old Bridge had them back in the 80's.

 

Thanks for the ride down memory lane to both of you guys!

 

Dave

Former OEM Communications

[KpdPipes 388]

I remember those convert-a-coms. The only thing the designers didn't figure on was coffee & cigarette ashes & butts finding their way into the units, LOL! Weakest link in the chain was the constant charging of the Nicad batteries. After a while, they developed a memory, and since you had to put the radio into the convert-a-com to use the car speaker, you'd over-charge the battery or charge it too soon and thereby develop the memory syndrome. But while the battery was fairly new, they worked really well, especially with UHF repeater systems with voting receivers. Old Bridge had them back in the 80's.

 

Thanks for the ride down memory lane to both of you guys!

 

Dave

Former OEM Communications

We had Converta-comms in all of the cars, and that was the ONLY radio we had at the time. Then they decided we needed a new system, so they installed different base units in every car and got a couple each of every portable out there, and for 6 months every shift we had to take a different vehicle, and portable and do a survey on each. in the end there was ONE radio everyone loved, and one radio EVERYONE Hated..give you 3 guesses which one we got...and the first two don't count.

[Smokin .50 1,907]

We had Converta-comms in all of the cars, and that was the ONLY radio we had at the time. Then they decided we needed a new system, so they installed different base units in every car and got a couple each of every portable out there, and for 6 months every shift we had to take a different vehicle, and portable and do a survey on each. in the end there was ONE radio everyone loved, and one radio EVERYONE Hated..give you 3 guesses which one we got...and the first two don't count.

Let me guess, it's the one that NOBODY liked! That's always the way it goes!

[J201 2]

This kinda stuff gives legal gun owners a bad name. I can't honestly say whether or not the guy was fleeing from him, but I'm guessing they are going to have a tough time with the self defense argument on this one.

[NFRs2000NYC 7]

I disagree. A CCW permit does not give you the license to go out and be a cop. CCW Is to defend the lives of yourselves and others, not to shoot fleeing robbers.

 

 

I disagree. Life has many meanings my friend. A paycheck is part of life. You need to spend a week to work, not see your family, and give up personal time for that paycheck. Having it robbed from you is like having part of your life stolen. Some states recognize the defense of personal property. To me CCW gives me the right for EXACTLY that, to protect my life, my family, my livelyhood, and that for which I worked for. Unfortunately, some lawmakers disagree.

[Smokin .50 1,907]

I disagree. Life has many meanings my friend. A paycheck is part of life. You need to spend a week to work, not see your family, and give up personal time for that paycheck. Having it robbed from you is like having part of your life stolen. Some states recognize the defense of personal property. To me CCW gives me the right for EXACTLY that, to protect my life, my family, my livelyhood, and that for which I worked for. Unfortunately, some lawmakers disagree.

And that there is why CCW is never going to happen in NJ, sadly.......

[Krdshrk 3,877]

Paychecks can be cancelled/replaced. It's not life, it's livelihood. Two different things.

[DevsAdvocate 112]

Paychecks can be cancelled/replaced. It's not life, it's livelihood. Two different things.

 

I'm not gonna simply sit there and let someone run off with my money. Not if I can help it.

[bbk 188]

Point that Nick ismaking is that all valuables can be replaced, or, with some effort, be accounted for in whole.

To me, anybody who uses that as justification is honestly looking for an excuse to make an example out of someone using their brand of justice. The only case in which "valuables" are worth one's life is owned land-- but then of course that has nothing to do with CCW.

 

So, don't charade your argument in some excuse. If you want to honestly shoot someone and kill them because *you* believe they are an undesirable, just say that and while it is horrifying and an absolutely terrible representation of the firearms community-- I'll at least give you some respect for being upfront. (Not that I would agree with you. At all.)

[Springfield1911 22]

This guy should be given the key to the city and not charged with murder. No question about it. The robber had no right threatening this guy and taking his money. All bets are off. If you rob me and you turn your back. Your dead.

 

 

[DevsAdvocate 112]

Point that Nick ismaking is that all valuables can be replaced, or, with some effort, be accounted for in whole.

To me, anybody who uses that as justification is honestly looking for an excuse to make an example out of someone using their brand of justice. The only case in which "valuables" are worth one's life is owned land-- but then of course that has nothing to do with CCW.

 

So, don't charade your argument in some excuse. If you want to honestly shoot someone and kill them because *you* believe they are an undesirable, just say that and while it is horrifying and an absolutely terrible representation of the firearms community-- I'll at least give you some respect for being upfront. (Not that I would agree with you. At all.)

 

Again, disagree. If a criminal is dumb enough to rob me when I have a CCW and tries to run away, why is it so awful to shoot some lead into him, regardless if he is running away?

 

This isn't hunting where you should observe 'fair chase' rules, it's a matter of law and order.

[mikelets456 78]

That's a fault of our supposed 'Justice System', not me. We've become a civilization which coddles and rewards criminals, and ultimately punishes those who are acting righteously.

 

I have to agree with that statement. We have become a society where "right is wrong and wrong is right". Innocent people are treated like criminals...Look at all the silly gun laws for instance... who do they actually protect? Honest citizens?

Media has brain washed people that there is a gray area... neither right nor wrong, an area of what "feels good". That is dangerous because now there is no clear boundary. "Feel good" outcomes are rarely rational and almost always put the innocent in danger and rob us of our freedoms.

[Zell959 40]

If a criminal is dumb enough to rob me when I have a CCW and tries to run away, why is it so awful to shoot some lead into him, regardless if he is running away?

 

Can you offer wording for a theoretical law that would allow you the right to shoot someone under those circumstances, but would not make the following legal as well:

 

-Fatally shooting someone who charges you full price for an item you later learn to be a cheap immitation

-Fatally shooting someone after they pick up a quarter they saw you drop and put it in their pocket.

-Fatally shooting the manager of a towing company who has towed your legally parked car and is demanding you pay for the tow & storage fees before they will give it back to you.

-Fatally shooting a data entry clerk that used to work for Bernard Madoff because you are one of the people who lost their money in his Ponzi scheme

-Fatally shooting an uninsured motorist that damages your vehicle

 

?

[mikeyboyeee 66]

Can you offer wording for a theoretical law that would allow you the right to shoot someone under those circumstances, but would not make the following legal as well:

 

-Fatally shooting someone who charges you full price for an item you later learn to be a cheap immitation

-Fatally shooting someone after they pick up a quarter they saw you drop and put it in their pocket.

-Fatally shooting the manager of a towing company who has towed your legally parked car and is demanding you pay for the tow & storage fees before they will give it back to you.

-Fatally shooting a data entry clerk that used to work for Bernard Madoff because you are one of the people who lost their money in his Ponzi scheme

-Fatally shooting an uninsured motorist that damages your vehicle

 

?

 

 

Yeah, just use the word crime.

 

Nothing you have listed there constitutes a crime in any State.

[Zell959 40]

Yeah, just use the word crime.

 

Nothing you have listed there constitutes a crime in any State.

 

With the exception of the quarter, you're mistaken.

[bulpup 98]

I don't know why it has to be so difficult.

 

Give the guy the wallet, he turns, you draw and aim then say "you forgot my Rolex!"

[StarWarsGeek45 5]

I don't know why it has to be so difficult.

 

Give the guy the wallet, he turns, you draw and aim then say "you forgot my Rolex!"

 

 

Now, this right here is sound tactical advice!

[NFRs2000NYC 7]

Paychecks can be cancelled/replaced. It's not life, it's livelihood. Two different things.

 

It can take up to 5 business day to cancel a payroll check. It takes less than one hour to cash a check. I know we are splitting hairs here, but in my America, you would be able to kill robber if he stole your used toilet paper. Stealing is stealing.