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satrnfreak

Gun show purchase....

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I do give a crap in the sense that I would never do it. But hypothetically speaking, how are these laws even realistically enforceable? This is the issue I'm trying to dig act.

 

So you admit they are laws, you're just quibbling about getting caught?

 

For example: You don't need any FPID/PP to own a firearm, no? So then how is possession determined?

 

 

There is legal possession and illegal possession. You're talking about ownership. If you are in legal possession, they won't bother checking up on ownership. The converse is also true. They will usually trace a firearm back to an FFL then can often do some footwork and figure out who had it before and after that.

 

 

From what I understand, you don't keep the 4473 when you do buy the firearm legally from an FFL (in NJ we get the COE and copies of the PP), and if you do face to face sales within a state, there are no records of ownership of that firearm anyways until it re-enters the FFL system.

 

Furthermore, what about someone who does a face-to-face as a resident of PA, then moves to NJ, why does the fact of residency even matter if in the end, the firearm still crossed the Delaware? At what point did that extra step of residency really matter in the progression of those events? Did it make the user somehow less violent? Did it make them less inclined to break the law?

 

You can go to a gun show in Ohio. Guys will have booths set up with a sign "No paperwork". You can buy whatever gun(hand or long) they might be selling, no fuss no muss. I will tell you however that the ATF and others will often follow the purchaser out to their vehicle. If you've got out of state plates, you're going to be on the ground, knee in you back about 50% of the time the moment after you put the keys in the car. Same goes if you look like a thug or otherwise shady jagoff.

 

The fact of the matter, these are laws. Honest people follow them. Dishonest people don't and usually spend time in jail because "who's gonna catch me, it's untraceable".

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So you admit they are laws, you're just quibbling about getting caught?

 

Just asking how one is enforced, not so much worried about getting caught.

 

There is legal possession and illegal possession. You're talking about ownership. If you are in legal possession, they won't bother checking up on ownership. The converse is also true. They will usually trace a firearm back to an FFL then can often do some footwork and figure out who had it before and after that.

 

So if you're a 'law-abiding citizen' with a clean record, then they have no reason to even bother.

 

You can go to a gun show in Ohio. Guys will have booths set up with a sign "No paperwork". You can buy whatever gun(hand or long) they might be selling, no fuss no muss. I will tell you however that the ATF and others will often follow the purchaser out to their vehicle. If you've got out of state plates, you're going to be on the ground, knee in you back about 50% of the time the moment after you put the keys in the car. Same goes if you look like a thug or otherwise shady jagoff.

 

So use a local rental car, friends car, etc? Or just don't buy one at a gun show location?

 

Goodness gracious, these laws are written by knuckleheads. It's got to be very easy for criminals to procure firearms through these means.

 

The fact of the matter, these are laws. Honest people follow them. Dishonest people don't and usually spend time in jail because "who's gonna catch me, it's untraceable".

 

True. Strike it up to the good ol' Catholic guilt trip or fear of a Federal Colonoscopy. But honest folks aren't the issue here... seems to me the law in question is pretty much enforced by the honor system more than anything else and of little consequence to those who really don't care.

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For example, the geniuses in Washington DC can pass a law that says you can only breathe air comprised of 40% oxygen... but how would it be enforced? Would you, the "law-abiding at heart" then breathe out of oxygen bottles to stay in compliance? This is a ridiculous example, of course, but just goes to show some of the ridiculousness in firearms regulation between the states and by the Federal Gov't.

 

They already passed a law regarding respiration - or perhaps you're unaware that "Carbon" CO2 is the byproduct of human respiration - oh and that plants NEED an abundance of CO2 for photosynthesis... But alas - try convincing the geniuses in Washington of that...

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They already passed a law regarding respiration - or perhaps you're unaware that "Carbon" CO2 is the byproduct of human respiration - oh and that plants NEED an abundance of CO2 for photosynthesis... But alas - try convincing the geniuses in Washington of that...

 

Re-classifying CO2 as a pollutant was a brilliantly hilarious move on their part. But how would they even go about enforcing the most ridiculous notions of respiration regulation?

 

The other question: does following the law or breaking the law ultimately determine if someone is a good and decent person?

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You can kill a bum and burry him in the backyard. It's an honor system too. What's the point?

 

All of the laws are based on the honor system.

 

I think the moral implications of taking a life differ a bit from say... stealing candy from a supermarket. One is murder, and one is theft, but both have victims. In djg0770's example of date raping someone (which was weird to see posted here), there is a victim.

 

So, who is getting hurt/victimized if a firearm is illegally procured and transported across state lines? I bet there were plenty of instances prior to McDonald v. Chicago where illegally owned firearms were used in legitimate cases of defense. Does that fact make those people worse (morally) than you or I?

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I think the moral implications of taking a life differ a bit from say... stealing candy from a supermarket. One is murder, and one is theft, but both have victims. In djg0770's example of date raping someone (which was weird to see posted here), there is a victim.

 

And if you're married? who's really the victim then?

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You can kill a bum and burry him in the backyard. It's an honor system too. What's the point?

 

All of the laws are based on the honor system.

 

Also, laws also kinda derive from the power of being enforced and punished. A law that is not enforceable is a law that also lacks a punishment. At least from a philosophical standpoint.

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And if you're married? who's really the victim then?

 

The wife. Just because you're married doesn't mean you're entitled to sexually assault her. Sexual assault can be construed as a form of domestic violence... though proving that would be immensely difficult.

 

This is, of course, under the assumption that you did not enter into a mutual agreement with her allowing such things. Who knows... whatever floats your marital boat.

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But how would you be caught? This isn't so much advocacy of violating Federal Law... but aside from committing a crime with the weapon, how would anyone be the wiser?

 

While the chance of getting caught may be slim to none in reality, it doesn't change the fact that it is against the law, add in that it involved a firearm and multiple states it becomes federal I believe. Is a gun worth it?? Get caught, loose that gun and every gun you own.

 

Plus by what I will take as your hypothetical scenario, it hypothetically says in a public forum that violating the Law this way isn't a big deal to you, hypothetically speaking that is .. :icon_mrgreen:

 

Oh, and from what we learned in the the other thread, it's not a weapon, it's a gun. :sarcastichand:

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While the chance of getting caught may be slim to none in reality, it doesn't change the fact that it is against the law, add in that it involved a firearm and multiple states it becomes federal I believe. Is a gun worth it?? Get caught, loose that gun and every gun you own.

 

Plus by what I will take as your hypothetical scenario, it hypothetically says in a public forum that violating the Law this way isn't a big deal to you, hypothetically speaking that is .. :icon_mrgreen:

 

And that means what to who? Is it criminally conspiratorial to ask how a law is enforced? Or to point out the fact that it is difficult to enforce?

 

Oh, and from what we learned in the the other thread, it's not a weapon, it's a gun. :sarcastichand:

 

It's a weapon. I didn't buy one because it shoots rainbows and lollipops.

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I understand the law, but if the law is unenforceable, then is it really a law? I'm just questioning how it is enforced (if it is).

 

 

What do you mean it's not enforceable?? How about this, if you so sure about this, do what you propose and notify to the authorities that you just completed the illegal transfer and let me know how that goes for you..:banghead:

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Also, laws also kinda derive from the power of being enforced and punished. A law that is not enforceable is a law that also lacks a punishment. At least from a philosophical standpoint.

 

Exactly. Coupled with the fact that all that is illegal is not immoral, nor is all that is legal moral. Then factor in that "morals" are merely a human definition and vary greatly.

 

As you said, there is no victim who is harmed by that Mossberg 500. I agree, that if there is no victim, there is no crime.

 

Also, I'm not sure why so many people believe in the "follow the law no matter what cause I'm a good guy" schtick comes from.

 

If that's the case, then surely they were happy about people being arrested for helping slaves escape. I wonder if they feel bad for the British about that Tea Party? The one in the harbor, not the one with fat guys in lawn chairs.

 

Much like Black Powder and BB guns, do our white knights here really care so much about those ridiculous laws too? Sure, you may not be inclined to go buy a BP/BB in PA. But how far would you go to help NJ enforce its laws? Would you rat our your fellow citizen for owning such dangerous 18th century technology?

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What do you mean it's not enforceable?? How about this, if you so sure about this, what you propose and notify to the authorities that you just completed the illegal transfer and let me know how that goes for you..:banghead:

 

And the point I tried to make is: how will anyone know you did what you did if you never use the particular firearm in a manner deserving of any scrutiny (i.e. committing a crime)?

 

As for the bolded part, I think Mayor Bloomberg and his MAIG video crews get away with that often enough. But hey, they're breaking the law for good reason, right?

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And the point I tried to make is: how will anyone know you did what you did if you never use the particular firearm in a manner deserving of any scrutiny (i.e. committing a crime)?

 

As for the bolded part, I think Mayor Bloomberg and his MAIG video crews get away with that often enough. But hey, they're breaking the law for good reason, right?

 

Here is why the law is there...

 

One of the MANY LEO/State Police/AG's office people who READ and MONITOR the forum find this thread, and decide you are mentally incapable of possessing a firearm. Thus, unable to pass Nics.

 

So you go out of state, and buy a firearm illegally out of state.

 

The seller is breaking the law by not checking your ID, and so are you.

 

Morality has nothing to do with the law. You may agree with it, or not, but that is what it is.

 

Your intent, whether it is to legally own it, or you are going to resell it to Mexican Cartels, or to crack heads in Newark makes no difference.

 

Where do you draw the line?

 

SBR's? NFA items? how about RPG's?

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And the point I tried to make is: how will anyone know you did what you did if you never use the particular firearm in a manner deserving of any scrutiny (i.e. committing a crime)?

 

 

How about you just made this hypothetical purchase, you driving along and WHAM, accident. gun on the road you in an ambulance, gun is at the PD. You get someone who is a little curious and check the gun out, just happened to be registered to someone else, then they want to ask some questions. How about if the gun came back that it was used in a crime previously and now want to ask you about that crime.. Thats unlikely but could happen.

 

Next scenario, it's a sting looking for people doing this.

 

Scenario # 3, Look at the 5 that just got jammed up, some NYPD guys and a NJ DOC guy I think,,, guess they never thought anyone was looking.

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How about you just made this hypothetical purchase, you driving along and WHAM, accident. gun on the road you in an ambulance, gun is at the PD. You get someone who is a little curious and check the gun out, just happened to be registered to someone else, then they want to ask some questions. How about if the gun came back that it was used in a crime previously and now want to ask you about that crime.. Thats unlikely but could happen.

 

Next scenario, it's a sting looking for people doing this.

 

I think the way eTrace works is that they're only traceable to their last point of sale via FFL or if it was used in a crime. I don't think they are registered to a specific name. Though, I could be wrong (and most probably am)... So if the police snoop that and find the gun was recently used in a crime, then yeah, that'll get the water boiling. If not, then so what? It's just another gun. The most they can do after that is check to see if you're a prohibited person who is not legally allowed to own a firearm... but if that comes back clean...?

 

Let's flip this around: what if you got a gun via inheritance, and you got into that same accident. If I recall correctly, you don't need an FPID to receive guns from inheritance if within the same state (or some silly BS), and therefor wouldn't have any paperwork to show any ownership of that. And if you have a different name from the person you inherited the firearms from?

 

Or how about this more NJ-centric scenario: you're building an AR-15 upper. You attach the barrel to the upper receiver and the police barge in with a no-knock warrant on the wrong (your) address. They see you have the barrel, unthreaded... are you screwed?

 

It would appear that you'd have to be under intense scrutiny to even warrant such a deep down investigation such as you described.

 

One can be caught in an ATF sting as well, and this appears to be the only way to enforce compliance to the Federal Law on the trafficking of firearms. But then again, the same can be said for buying cigarettes in North Carolina and driving them up 95...

 

Scenario # 3, Look at the 5 that just got jammed up, some NYPD guys and a NJ DOC guy I think,,, guess they never thought anyone was looking.

 

They probably did, hoping their badges would shield them from scrutiny. But when you make a whole operation out of illegally transporting goods across state lines, then you tend to draw the ire of major law enforcement organizations.

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Here is why the law is there...

 

One of the MANY LEO/State Police/AG's office people who READ and MONITOR the forum find this thread, and decide you are mentally incapable of possessing a firearm. Thus, unable to pass Nics.

 

So you go out of state, and buy a firearm illegally out of state.

 

The seller is breaking the law by not checking your ID, and so are you.

 

Morality has nothing to do with the law. You may agree with it, or not, but that is what it is.

 

Your intent, whether it is to legally own it, or you are going to resell it to Mexican Cartels, or to crack heads in Newark makes no difference.

 

Where do you draw the line?

 

SBR's? NFA items? how about RPG's?

 

It really just goes to show that this law, while effective at stopping law-abiding folks like us, is no deterrent to those who cause harm. It seems like it would literally take a sting operation on every face to face purchase in states which allow them to even enforce it.

 

I was simply just questioning the effectiveness of such statutes and pointing out the fallacy in even having them. Apparently, folks here are uncomfortable about... what exactly? That I asked how this type of stuff is even enforceable?

 

The OP originally brought up the topic of buying a firearm at a PA gun show. Seeing as most gun shows are full of private citizens and not FFLs, I naturally assumed any transaction done would be a face-to-face, and that like New Jersey, those transactions are not controlled via NICS or require a 4473. The big difference between PA and NJ is that we require a COE in NJ, PA does not. So the topic shifted to discussing the prospect of buying a firearm in a face-to-face transfer in a PA gun show, and what the harm that would be, especially since there is no 'gun registration' scheme in the United States, and that the FPID/Pistol Permit system we have in NJ is limited by our state's borders. So the answer was: you can't do face-to-face transfers at all across state lines as this would violate Federal Law. But I was just curious to ask: how would anyone know? (if you never intended to use the gun in a criminal manner)

 

I mean, in NJ, you can own firearms without any paperwork if you bought them when living out of state. Heck, you could've lived in PA and bought a few via face-to-face prior to moving to NJ. Then throw in a few more hypothetical questions and me basically pointing out the fallacy of such interstate laws, and we have the thread we're at.

 

All the answers to the questions have been settled:

-No you don't need a COE to buy from an FFL

-No you cannot do FtF transfers and cross state lines

-Yes, the laws governing these transaction are enforced, but typically require a sting at the point of sale, or possessing a firearm recorded in the use of a crime.

 

If you didn't like where the discussion topic was going, you could have simply deleted the posts early on and PM'ed your concerns to me. But a few here took the low route and simply started bashing me. I'm a pretty reasonable person and willing to accept fault and as such I did not mean to piss you all off. So I apologize if I hurt any feelings or caused any undo concern. I understand you are all looking out for the community at large and I was not aware that my line of questioning would raise some ire. I feel that these discussions can be helpful though, especially when trying to figure out the mess that is the firearms law within our nation and our state. :)

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WOW..... I did not mean for this to get so out of hand. I was hoping that there were some guys on here that have been to these shows and bought Nosiness or something and could give me some guidance. Like maybe they have a NICE check there so I can use it thru the whole show? I am not looking to buy illegally and hopefully with the knowledge presented here I can keep myself out of any potential jams..... Thnx again!!!!

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WOW..... I did not mean for this to get so out of hand.

 

 

Look, simple answer and let's hope this ends this nonsense.

 

Handguns can be purchased anywhere but must be delivered through an FFL in your state of reseidence.

Longarms can be purchased from an FFL in any state, so long as the laws of both states (transaction state and residence state) are adhered to

FTF sales from non-licensees can only occur between residents of the same state.

 

Enough already.

 

Adios,

 

Pizza Bob

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Thnx Bob, so now anyone that has specifics on how PA gun shows work, fill me in, plz. Do you do the NICS check at the door, or do I need to first find FFL dealer that will do the transfers at the show?? Also, looking for SKS, Mosin, maybe Dragonov(not sure of the legality of the last), any vendors I should seek out??

 

Thnx again...

Mike

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Thnx Bob, so now anyone that has specifics on how PA gun shows work, fill me in, plz. Do you do the NICS check at the door, or do I need to first find FFL dealer that will do the transfers at the show?? Also, looking for SKS, Mosin, maybe Dragonov(not sure of the legality of the last), any vendors I should seek out??

 

Thnx again...

Mike

 

Any FFL worth there salt will not risk there license for a gun sale so I doubt you would have any problems at a gun show picking up a gun. If you do and they say never mind the NICS check just meet me out back and we can do this, RUN Saturnfreak Run. If they do all the appropriate paperwork and required checks you good. NJ resident can buy outside of NJ in any sate as long as they buy from a FFL when it's a long guns thats being purchased. Oh and I should add as long as the long gun is legal to have in NJ.

 

As some have said, carry a few pre-filled out COE,'s I carry a bunch with me in my car for that spur of the moment F2F buy in state, and I have brought them into a FFL's because it saves me time, and my hand writing isn't the greatest.

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Oh yeah.... and if anyone knows where the guy is that sells the rainbow and lollipop shooting guns, fill me in, my daughter would love one...... (that was some funny shiat right there)

 

How old, My little girl has a Marlin 795 (22LR), it's around a 100 dollar gun with the rebate Marlin is having till the end of the year, and she loves it. She is 12 now but I should have started her when she was a lot younger.

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