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vladtepes

Is *Insert any semi automatic handgun* legal in NJ?

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15 minutes ago, Lord_Fudd said:

i’m not set up for retail operations, so I wouldn’t be able to. 

that and your AZ DL doesn’t match your NJ FID sorry charlie ;)

FPID for a pistol? Matching DL? Pftt.

Was going to use my passport with NJ Purchase Permit, both Government issued documents, containing Name, DOB, Photo, Address.

Good luck in your adventure.

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Hey i’m just trying to help others out who actually are affected, i’m not a paranoid fudd because the law doesn’t explicitly spell things out. BTW, California laws are “all guns are illegal EXCEPT” they have an approved handgun roster FFS.

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3 hours ago, Lord_Fudd said:

Paranoid much? Again, I have my 07/03. I have SBR’s and 3 pin guns legally in NJ because they are on my inventory. 

Want to know so bad? Give Brett Bloom a call. Hell, I’ll call him for you because you’re a dumb fudd.

i’m not a lawyer and neither are you, so if you want to debate this with someone, take it up with one of them. 

i'd love to see a letter on this from Brett, i've asked my dealer to contact him months ago and still havn't gotten an answer 

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I’d love to get a letter from Brett period. Best I’ve ever gotten from him is non-legal advice over the phone.

i’ll give you another tidbit that is NJ legal if you should want one. The Law Tactical folder, the rifle can’t shoot when folded....yes it can fire one shot if chambered but the bolt will not cycle, therefore it’s not functioning as  Semi-Automatic.

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so for all those who jumped down my throat yesterday I spoke to Brett, additionally 2 AR manufacturers in New Jersey AND my lawyer over the past 2 days about the Juggernaut Hellfighter pin, they indeed confirmed my theory and question that it is good to go and redefining the weapon and changing the operations of the gun. Laws are written as the gun is assembled and the shooter is continuously changing magazines by pushing the mag release with the action closed.

Their verdict: Good to go on AR's in lieu of pinning stocks, muzzle brakes etc. etc.....AR Pistols, you'll have a harder time convincing the guy at the gun shop on this.

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29 minutes ago, Lord_Fudd said:

lol no worries. A lot of shit in this state is hearsay and people don't actually know or read the laws.

The interesting thing is this, your attorney can say whatever to convince you.

You can talk to any number of manufacturers to convince you.

Who is going to convince the DA?  Who is going to convince the jury?

Not trolling here it's a legit question. 

John Doe buys this...WHEN AR type rifles start getting band and featureless laws start getting passed.  Places it on his rifle and gets pinched by the local Leo's and now the DA is involved....

Are you ready to be the test case?

Are you ready to be judged by those that know next to nothing about firearms?

If your tolerance for that experience is their I commend you.....  however most folks would understand that dismantling a firearms to change magazines would be to take a rifle apart...not hit some buttons.

That's my .02 and I am not a lawyer.....just trying to use common sense. 

 

PS juries dont really have that much

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You forgot the part where Brett Bloom told me it looked good to him. I think you’re being overly paranoid and stretching. I would hope that someone who puts this on their gun knows the laws and can explain it should law enforcement be involved. 

Personal experience here, having my FFL/SOT I can have a lot of stuff that New Jersey forbids like AR Pistols and SBR’s, I’ve taken them to Ranges in New Jersey, had range officers and police talk to me when they’ve seen me shooting. I provide them my FFL and SOT paperwork, along with copies of FFL laws....I’m good to go.

This device i’m talking about is both CA compliant and NY SAFE act compliant. I get it NJ hasn’t gotten to that one of 1 feature (yet) but is an alternative if you want an adjustable stock, flash hider, lug etc. if that doesn’t bother you, so be it that’s your choice. But if you decide to ever move to the rest of America and want a normal rifle again, it’s a lot easier to put in a normal takedown pin than it is to change out a pinned muzzle device

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7 hours ago, Lord_Fudd said:

You forgot the part where Brett Bloom told me it looked good to him. I think you’re being overly paranoid and stretching. I would hope that someone who puts this on their gun knows the laws and can explain it should law enforcement be involved. 

Personal experience here, having my FFL/SOT I can have a lot of stuff that New Jersey forbids like AR Pistols and SBR’s, I’ve taken them to Ranges in New Jersey, had range officers and police talk to me when they’ve seen me shooting. I provide them my FFL and SOT paperwork, along with copies of FFL laws....I’m good to go.

This device i’m talking about is both CA compliant and NY SAFE act compliant. I get it NJ hasn’t gotten to that one of 1 feature (yet) but is an alternative if you want an adjustable stock, flash hider, lug etc. if that doesn’t bother you, so be it that’s your choice. But if you decide to ever move to the rest of America and want a normal rifle again, it’s a lot easier to put in a normal takedown pin than it is to change out a pinned muzzle device

Who is brett bloom...

 

You are missing a point though..you dont need to convince the police....you need to convince a DA....its legal.  

 

That there is the big issue.....

And it is not being overly paranoid...its the cost to defend that will break your family ...and destroy ur life

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1. Brett Bloom is the head of the firearms division for the NJSP, all things guns in this state go through him, if you didn’t know this and you’re going to debate legalities I suggest you stop talking.

2. What honestly makes you think the police are going to be out to get you for your gun? Are you dealing drugs? Are you shooting at random people driving by your home? Are you getting in gunfights on a regular basis? If your answer is no to any of those questions, you should stop being paranoid.

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On 2/7/2019 at 9:21 AM, Lord_Fudd said:

You forgot the part where Brett Bloom told me it looked good to him. I think you’re being overly paranoid and stretching. I would hope that someone who puts this on their gun knows the laws and can explain it should law enforcement be involved. 

Personal experience here, having my FFL/SOT I can have a lot of stuff that New Jersey forbids like AR Pistols and SBR’s, I’ve taken them to Ranges in New Jersey, had range officers and police talk to me when they’ve seen me shooting. I provide them my FFL and SOT paperwork, along with copies of FFL laws....I’m good to go.

This device i’m talking about is both CA compliant and NY SAFE act compliant. I get it NJ hasn’t gotten to that one of 1 feature (yet) but is an alternative if you want an adjustable stock, flash hider, lug etc. if that doesn’t bother you, so be it that’s your choice. But if you decide to ever move to the rest of America and want a normal rifle again, it’s a lot easier to put in a normal takedown pin than it is to change out a pinned muzzle device

with all due respect.. 

you keep talking about the laws in other states... 
you keep talking about your undocumented phone call.. 

to the average person.. they are kind of worthless.. I am NOT saying they are or are not good to go.. the law as written states "ability to accept a detachable magazine" period.. there is no more guidance than that... so to the average person..

so the semi auto gun.. either accepts a mag or it does not.. in the case of the device Maks posted.. it absolutely accepts a detachable mag.. and a prosecutor could absolutely stand in front of a court room and say...

ability to accept detachable mag..
and then click a mag into the bottom of the gun... 

how do you fight that? they can demonstrate exactly what the law says..

 

things like law tactical folder.. mechanisms to lock the mag in place.. they are a gray area.. and they will continue to be unless there is some firm guidance provided by the state.. 

would you beat the charge? if charged with a law tactical folder? maybe? would they charge you? more than likely.. 

is it a semi automatic gun? yes

can the stock fold? yes

can the gun function as semi auto while folded? NO.. so that might let you beat it.. but you may pass through several layers of the legal process before that happens because it is not common knowledge and there is no standing guidance from the state on the matter.. 
 

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3 hours ago, vladtepes said:

with all due respect.. 

you keep talking about the laws in other states... 
you keep talking about your undocumented phone call.. 

to the average person.. they are kind of worthless.. I am NOT saying they are or are not good to go.. the law as written states "ability to accept a detachable magazine" period.. there is no more guidance than that... so to the average person..

so the semi auto gun.. either accepts a mag or it does not.. in the case of the device Maks posted.. it absolutely accepts a detachable mag.. and a prosecutor could absolutely stand in front of a court room and say...

ability to accept detachable mag..
and then click a mag into the bottom of the gun... 

how do you fight that? they can demonstrate exactly what the law says..

 

things like law tactical folder.. mechanisms to lock the mag in place.. they are a gray area.. and they will continue to be unless there is some firm guidance provided by the state.. 

would you beat the charge? if charged with a law tactical folder? maybe? would they charge you? more than likely.. 

is it a semi automatic gun? yes

can the stock fold? yes

can the gun function as semi auto while folded? NO.. so that might let you beat it.. but you may pass through several layers of the legal process before that happens because it is not common knowledge and there is no standing guidance from the state on the matter.. 
 

Does the law specify that makes it detachable? Does the law say you can't? you're an adult, you decide how you want to go with it. 

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6 minutes ago, Lord_Fudd said:

 

Does the law specify that makes it detachable? Does the law say you can't? you're an adult, you decide how you want to go with it. 

this is the guidance that is provided.. 

A semi-automatic pistol that has an ability to accept a detachable magazine and has at least TWO of the following:


nothing more nothing less... all it tells us quite literally is.. 

is the gun semi auto?
can it accept a detachable mag?

it makes no effort to qualify that statement further... so the fear is simply.. if an aggressive prosecution wanted to.. could they stand in front of court and say to a room full of people indifferent to gun rights at best.. 

"this gun is semi auto and clearly accepts detachable magazines" as they click the mag into the gun.. with the way the wording is.. they do not even have to show how the mag is removed.. because it is not relevant.. they would just need to show the insertion of the mag.. to validate that it accepts a detachable mag.. 

how do you then defend yourself against the claim?  you start explaining about taking lowers apart and how the gun can't fire for the moment that the gun is apart? 

there is no legal standing to distinguish between pushing the mag release.. or pushing another pin and then the mag release.. 

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Sigh....for the umpteenth time. Gun laws are written based on how the gun is designed to operate ASSEMBLED.

 

These are the same law makers who believe a person with multiple 10 round mags in a soft target will be less deadly than if they had 1 30rd magazine because the 1 second it takes to reload saves lives. They see you jumping through hoops to change magazines....like disassembling the action, it would appease them because you’re yielding to their power. 

The gun ASSEMBLED is fixed mag, the gun DISASSEMBLED (which is when the action is broke open) can change mags. Again the law says nothing about taking it apart to change mags being illegal. 

 

So again, you’re and adult, make your own decision.

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3 hours ago, Lord_Fudd said:

Sigh....for the umpteenth time. Gun laws are written based on how the gun is designed to operate ASSEMBLED.

 

These are the same law makers who believe a person with multiple 10 round mags in a soft target will be less deadly than if they had 1 30rd magazine because the 1 second it takes to reload saves lives. They see you jumping through hoops to change magazines....like disassembling the action, it would appease them because you’re yielding to their power. 

The gun ASSEMBLED is fixed mag, the gun DISASSEMBLED (which is when the action is broke open) can change mags. Again the law says nothing about taking it apart to change mags being illegal. 

 

So again, you’re and adult, make your own decision.

I am not sure what is difficult to comprehend.. you have two choices... 

you can read and interpret the law exactly as it is written.. or you can choose to make some assumptions.. 

you seem to think it is safe to make assumptions.. which may be totally fine for some people.. I do not even live in NJ anymore.. but to me when I did live there.. I preferred to try to follow the law as it is written... or in the course that case law supports.. I had no interest in being the test case.. its not fear.. its not paranoia.. 

the law simply says ability to accept a detachable magazine.. with no other qualification.. I do not believe that breaking open the action makes the gun unable to accept a detachable magazine.... simply because it does not state that it does... and I am not completely sold on the fact that a jury full of my "peers" in NJ would see it that way.. 

if the intention is other than that.. then the law needs to be cleaned up to address that... or get the state to issue guidance on the matter.. so the position of the state is clear.. IF they are OK with devices like that they should have no problem issuing guidance clarifying that.. 

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On 2/5/2019 at 12:31 PM, Lord_Fudd said:

I’d love to get a letter from Brett period. Best I’ve ever gotten from him is non-legal advice over the phone.

i’ll give you another tidbit that is NJ legal if you should want one. The Law Tactical folder, the rifle can’t shoot when folded....yes it can fire one shot if chambered but the bolt will not cycle, therefore it’s not functioning as  Semi-Automatic.

As an FYI: This is false. 

NJSP FAU considers the Law Folder a folding stock, and thus would be no good with any other features.

Before you ask, yes, I have it in writing.

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5 minutes ago, High Exposure said:

As an FYI: This is false. 

NJSP FAU considers the Law Folder a folding stock, and thus would be no good with any other features.

Before you ask, yes, I have it in writing.

if you were over my house I would show you my surprised face... 

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52 minutes ago, vladtepes said:

I am not sure what is difficult to comprehend.. you have two choices... 

you can read and interpret the law exactly as it is written.. or you can choose to make some assumptions.. 

you seem to think it is safe to make assumptions.. which may be totally fine for some people.. I do not even live in NJ anymore.. but to me when I did live there.. I preferred to try to follow the law as it is written... or in the course that case law supports.. I had no interest in being the test case.. its not fear.. its not paranoia.. 

the law simply says ability to accept a detachable magazine.. with no other qualification.. I do not believe that breaking open the action makes the gun unable to accept a detachable magazine.... simply because it does not state that it does... and I am not completely sold on the fact that a jury full of my "peers" in NJ would see it that way.. 

if the intention is other than that.. then the law needs to be cleaned up to address that... or get the state to issue guidance on the matter.. so the position of the state is clear.. IF they are OK with devices like that they should have no problem issuing guidance clarifying that.. 

So this is a matter of your beliefs, not facts, got it. 

There’s no law saying all AR’s and AK’s must have a muzzle brake pinned and welded to the barrel, just a flash hider and threads are an evil feature.

there’s no law saying stocks must be pinned, just a folding or telescoping stock is an evil feature....and for your gun to not be an assault weapon it can only have 2 of x amount of features. All of what I mentioned is done to work around the law. Hell if you really wanted an adjustable stock you can put on a nub instead of a pistol grip.....but there’s no explicit law saying “all semi automatic military style rifles must have a muzzle brake pinned to barrel, bayonet lug removed and a pinned stock”

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52 minutes ago, vladtepes said:

I am not sure what is difficult to comprehend.. you have two choices... 

you can read and interpret the law exactly as it is written.. or you can choose to make some assumptions.. 

you seem to think it is safe to make assumptions.. which may be totally fine for some people.. I do not even live in NJ anymore.. but to me when I did live there.. I preferred to try to follow the law as it is written... or in the course that case law supports.. I had no interest in being the test case.. its not fear.. its not paranoia.. 

the law simply says ability to accept a detachable magazine.. with no other qualification.. I do not believe that breaking open the action makes the gun unable to accept a detachable magazine.... simply because it does not state that it does... and I am not completely sold on the fact that a jury full of my "peers" in NJ would see it that way.. 

if the intention is other than that.. then the law needs to be cleaned up to address that... or get the state to issue guidance on the matter.. so the position of the state is clear.. IF they are OK with devices like that they should have no problem issuing guidance clarifying that.. 

So this is a matter of your beliefs, not facts, got it. 

There’s no law saying all AR’s and AK’s must have a muzzle brake pinned and welded to the barrel, just a flash hider and threads are an evil feature.

there’s no law saying stocks must be pinned, just a folding or telescoping stock is an evil feature....and for your gun to not be an assault weapon it can only have 2 of x amount of features. All of what I mentioned is done to work around the law. Hell if you really wanted an adjustable stock you can put on a nub instead of a pistol grip.....but there’s no explicit law saying “all semi automatic military style rifles must have a muzzle brake pinned to barrel, bayonet lug removed and a pinned stock”

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What i’m more baffled by is a guy who doesn’t live in NJ is wasting his time arguing about the laws in a state he doesn’t have to comply with anymore.

And you wonder why vendors aren’t engaged with this platform more.

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33 minutes ago, Lord_Fudd said:

So this is a matter of your beliefs, not facts, got it. 

There’s no law saying all AR’s and AK’s must have a muzzle brake pinned and welded to the barrel, just a flash hider and threads are an evil feature.

there’s no law saying stocks must be pinned, just a folding or telescoping stock is an evil feature....and for your gun to not be an assault weapon it can only have 2 of x amount of features. All of what I mentioned is done to work around the law. Hell if you really wanted an adjustable stock you can put on a nub instead of a pistol grip.....but there’s no explicit law saying “all semi automatic military style rifles must have a muzzle brake pinned to barrel, bayonet lug removed and a pinned stock”

They are “work arounds” because they address the law as it is literally written...

”can not have a flash hider or threads that can accept a flash hider”

pinning a break removes the ability to accept a flash hider...

”ability to accept a detachable magazine”

having an extra step does not remove the ability for the gun to “accept a detachable magazine” 

with the part shown.. if the gun is fully assembled.. you can insert a detachable magazine.. the notion is far from complex.. 

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1 minute ago, Lord_Fudd said:

What i’m more baffled by is a guy who doesn’t live in NJ is wasting his time arguing about the laws in a state he doesn’t have to comply with anymore.

And you wonder why vendors aren’t engaged with this platform more.

Im not arguing about anything.. my concern is disinformation which you appear to be providing...

You already stated in a fairly factual way that the law folder was good to go.. someone stated that they have in writing it is NOT good to go..

your misinformation runs the risk of causing someone in NJ to get hung up legally.. 

just because I no longer live in NJ does not remove my capacity to care for fellow gun owners living there..

lastly.. I’m totally OK with being wrong.. I am not one of those people so blinded by being full of themselves that I will not concede to fact.. you are just not providing any..

Not Fact: “it’s legal cause California and off the record phone calls”

not useful fact at least.. 

 

 

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You want me to record my phone calls with the NJSP and upload them to the forum?

regardless if it’s california law or any states law for that matter. Actually that device in California isn’t even approved by law there either, it’s done as a work around to what their laws don’t say.

 

Laws are defined as “rules set by an official letter from governing legislation” you can argue this until your blue in the face with me, but there is nothing in the law explicitly saying it can’t detach when you take weapon apart. It’s safe to assume gun laws are written for how a complete gun operates assembled.

you know what evidence brings me to believe this is 100% kosher? Because it involves a shooter to go through hoops to reload and operate their weapon, which means you’re superceding to their control. 

I also never said this was legal advice or gospel either, I’m just a regular dude with an FFL. I’ll say it again, you’re an adult you can decide to take what you read or hear. But arguing with me over the internet about it provides little value to no one.

 

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2 minutes ago, Lord_Fudd said:

You want me to record my phone calls with the NJSP and upload them to the forum?

regardless if it’s california law or any states law for that matter. Actually that device in California isn’t even approved by law there either, it’s done as a work around to what their laws don’t say.

 

Laws are defined as “rules set by an official letter from governing legislation” you can argue this until your blue in the face with me, but there is nothing in the law explicitly saying it can’t detach when you take weapon apart. It’s safe to assume gun laws are written for how a complete gun operates assembled.

you know what evidence brings me to believe this is 100% kosher? Because it involves a shooter to go through hoops to reload and operate their weapon, which means you’re superceding to their control. 

I also never said this was legal advice or gospel either, I’m just a regular dude with an FFL. I’ll say it again, you’re an adult you can decide to take what you read or hear. But arguing with me over the internet about it provides little value to no one.

 

Maybe if I go slower..

you are RIGHT there is NOTHING in the law saying it can’t detach when apart.. you are 100 percent correct so how it detaches doesn’t matter because the law does not address that..

in fact I would go as far as to say a magazine could detach without the need for take down or tools...

because as stated the law makes no mention..

The problem begins on the other side..

”ability to accept a detachable mag”

can the gun accept a mag that is detachable? YES

that is the only qualification described..

 

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And when the magazine is inserted with the gun assembled, you push the mag release button and the magazine doesn’t come out, it no longer has the ability to accept a detachable magazine.

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Just now, Lord_Fudd said:

And when the magazine is inserted with the gun assembled, you push the mag release button and the magazine doesn’t come out, it no longer has the ability to accept a detachable magazine.

How did the detachable magazine get in there? Magic? 

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