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Aimpoint PRO vs EOTech 512 for Beretta CX4 .40

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I've read until my eyes are blurred and can't make up my mind. I know the arguments: FOV, weatherproofing, elements, shock resistance, battery life . . . and on and on. But, I have no experience with either. I'm a casual shooter looking for something a cut above the rest and have narrowed it to these two. Top of my list usage would be home defense, followed by knock-down steel (eventually, maybe, someday). Wish Shore Shot (or someplace) had these for rent to try them out. Anyone have any personal experience with this setup?

 

Thanks in advance!

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I could be wrong (no first hand experience), but the Aimpoint Pro SHOULD co-witness if you use a low mount instead of the mount it normally comes with. It uses a 30mm tube, so finding a mount that's low enough shouldn't be too hard.

 

When RayRay still had his CX4, he ran it with a Burris XTS-135, which is similar in size to the Aimpoint Pro and it co-witnessed fine once he got the right mount for it.

 

ETA: and to throw in my opinion with regards to the original question, I'd go with the Aimpoint.

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I could be wrong (no first hand experience), but the Aimpoint Pro SHOULD co-witness if you use a low mount instead of the mount it normally comes with. It uses a 30mm tube, so finding a mount that's low enough shouldn't be too hard.

 

When RayRay still had his CX4, he ran it with a Burris XTS-135, which is similar in size to the Aimpoint Pro and it co-witnessed fine once he got the right mount for it.

 

ETA: and to throw in my opinion with regards to the original question, I'd go with the Aimpoint.

 

 

is there an advantage to going with the aimpoint pro and changing the mount.. VS getting another and a mount to sit it low enough?

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is there an advantage to going with the aimpoint pro and changing the mount.. VS getting another and a mount to sit it low enough?

None whatsoever :) The big advantage of the Pro is it's price point (new). That's not to say that you couldn't find other Aimpoints for a similar (or lower) price. He asked about the Pro, so went with that.

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None whatsoever :) The big advantage of the Pro is it's price point (new). That's not to say that you couldn't find other Aimpoints for a similar (or lower) price. He asked about the Pro, so went with that.

 

 

makes sense.. might be too small for some people.. but the micro fits up on there really nicely..

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Micro would be my choice as well, but they are generally $100+ more. Still kicking myself for not grabbing a handful of R1's when Midway had them on sale for $300.

 

 

I would just hunt for a used micro.. I have a trijicon on mine.. and I like it a lot.. but no co-witness..

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Yes you can buy the PRO but just have to find a site that will sell it to you. Maybe something has changed in the past few months but the site I got it from seems to have changed their policy. Not sure if they are holding true to it but pm me for the name if you need it.

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It's still LEO/Security/Military only - that's not an issue for me. And I do hear that there are vendors that don't check for IDs - and I stay away from them due to Chicom counterfeits - which cost the same as the real deal.

 

Looks everyone has recommended an Aimpoint - no EOTech votes? Why not.

 

Also - found a great article which talks about red dot/holo sights - I buy their commentary about co-witnessing (http://ultimak.com/UnderstandingE-sights.htm)

 

Yes you can buy the PRO but just have to find a site that will sell it to you. Maybe something has changed in the past few months but the site I got it from seems to have changed their policy. Not sure if they are holding true to it but pm me for the name if you need it.

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because aimpoints will sit low in a low mount.. eotechs are part of the mount thus no ability to make them sit low enough to co-witeness..

 

the micro is tiny.. seems like it would be perfect on a cx4.. I have a trijicon on my cx4 no issue for me since I don't utilize irons.. and trijicon needs no batteries.. so for me works fine for my application..

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It's still LEO/Security/Military only - that's not an issue for me. And I do hear that there are vendors that don't check for IDs - and I stay away from them due to Chicom counterfeits - which cost the same as the real deal.

 

At the time it I purchased there was a lot of back and forth with different vendors on if civilians could purchase. This was just when it came out. Mine is an offical Aimpoint PRO (it's registered with Aimpoint) and the site I got it from is legit but again from their website it looks like they changed their policy to:

 

"Aimpoint is restricting the sale of this optic to Law Enforcement Agencies, Military Units, National Guard, Security Companies, Federal Agencies, US Government "

 

For the price and quality you can't go wrong with the PRO. I would have rather a CompM4 or even a ACOG but I couldn't justify spending that much money.

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Thanks, but as I posted earlier - not buying in to the whole co-witness argument. I don't/can't easily use irons (my eyesight is too bad for that - and it's not fixable). I want the best choice for field-of-view, fast target acquistion, and durability. I understand the replies supporting the Aimpoint - but NOBODY uses EOTech?

 

because aimpoints will sit low in a low mount.. eotechs are part of the mount thus no ability to make them sit low enough to co-witeness..

 

the micro is tiny.. seems like it would be perfect on a cx4.. I have a trijicon on my cx4 no issue for me since I don't utilize irons.. and trijicon needs no batteries.. so for me works fine for my application..

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Thanks, but as I posted earlier - not buying in to the whole co-witness argument. I don't/can't easily use irons (my eyesight is too bad for that - and it's not fixable). I want the best choice for field-of-view, fast target acquistion, and durability. I understand the replies supporting the Aimpoint - but NOBODY uses EOTech?

 

to what range are you shooting? there is no "buying into argument" while it may not be beneficial to you.. the ability to see your irons without removing your optic is a plus.. but if co-witness is not an issue for you.. why not just look for a used trijicon.. I paid less than $200 for mine.. and it doesn't even require batteries.. also keep in mind.. a reflex optic is only going to make short range shooting easier.. there is no magnification and you are staring down a small tunnel.. as stated.. I use a trijicon on my CX4 in 40 and love it..

 

i consider it my "go to" interior home defense weapon.. reflex optic that has no batteries to fail and is ALWAYS on.. flashlight mounted... light weight.. perfect for what it is intended to do.. and at far less the cost than an aimpoint OR eotech..

 

cx41.JPG

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Now that's a great on-topic answer -thanks! What model Trijicon do you have? My needs will be home defense and up to 100 meters.

 

to what range are you shooting? there is no "buying into argument" while it may not be beneficial to you.. the ability to see your irons without removing your optic is a plus.. but if co-witness is not an issue for you.. why not just look for a used trijicon.. I paid less than $200 for mine.. and it doesn't even require batteries.. also keep in mind.. a reflex optic is only going to make short range shooting easier.. there is no magnification and you are staring down a small tunnel.. as stated.. I use a trijicon on my CX4 in 40 and love it..

 

i consider it my "go to" interior home defense weapon.. reflex optic that has no batteries to fail and is ALWAYS on.. flashlight mounted... light weight.. perfect for what it is intended to do.. and at far less the cost than an aimpoint OR eotech..

 

cx41.JPG

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Any reason why they WERE or NOW are limiting the PRO to LEO only?

 

Thanks for the info nonetheless!

 

my guess is they are selling these at a slightly lower cost to encourage LEO purchase and do not want to derail the purchase of other civilian optics they sell?

 

but that is JUST a guess..

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Now that's a great on-topic answer -thanks! What model Trijicon do you have? My needs will be home defense and up to 100 meters.

 

not sure I have to look at it.. it is one of the ones with the bible verse in the serial number.. lol might even be some beat up mil surplus unit..

 

the point being for me using it in the SAME way you want to.. it is IDEAL.. and it was cheap..

 

could probably keep an eye on places like gun broker.. OR maybe even ebay.. just really check out the feedback and ask questions if you need to so you do not end up with a copy.. the real deal is WELL worth 200 IMO...

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I'll chime in with my usual statement about eotech. If you have an astigmatism, you MUST try one before you lay out any money. You may find it horrifically unusable. I have a mild astigmatism, and all dots can be a bit extra blurry, but eotech hologram thing can get REALLY bad depending on eye relief.

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also keep in mind.. a reflex optic is only going to make short range shooting easier.. there is no magnification and you are staring down a small tunnel.. as stated.. I use a trijicon on my CX4 in 40 and love it..

 

i consider it my "go to" interior home defense weapon.. reflex optic that has no batteries to fail and is ALWAYS on.. flashlight mounted... light weight.. perfect for what it is intended to do.. and at far less the cost than an aimpoint OR eotech..

 

cx41.JPG

 

Just a couple quick things about optics.

 

First and most importantly, always let your mission drive the gear purchases. Think about what you need/want to do and buy equipment that enhances you ability to do so.

 

That being said, no optic will make you a better shot, magnified optics included. Only practice and training with the equipment you have will do that, whether it is irons, RDS, or magnified. If you are a crappy shot without an optic, you will be a crappy shot with an optic.

 

That does not mean that a RDS (Red Dot Sight) or reflex sight can not enhance your shooting ability. They can make it easier to learn to be a good shot, and with practice can enable you to get faster hits in a variety of positions and at great distances. It is just that an RDS is not a panacea for all your shooting woes. You still need to practice and become comfortable using it. As far as magnified optics I have found that they help you SEE better but not Shoot better. Since we are talking about an optic for a pistol caliber carbine I don't see realistic shots past 75 yards or so. A RDS will do everything you need, and do it faster, than a magnified optic inside 100 yards, and with practice you can ring steel way past 250 yards with an RDS. Also, if you are using an RDS correctly it does not appear that you are looking through a tube. The optics body does not interfere with your situational awareness at all and you really do not even see it. You simply get the proper sight picture, apply your shooting fundamentals and repeat. The optic does not cause "Tunnel Vision" or lack of SA. A high heart rate and its physiological side affects coupled with bad habits and a lack of training and experience are the culprits there.

 

The optic shown on the Baretta above is the Trijicon Reflex. It used to be part of the SOPMOD kit for the M4. It is no longer included in the kit and for cause. They had many issues with that sight and in any case, there are now many better options out there. Yes the better options are more expensive options but, you really do get what you pay for. Buy once, cry once as they say. Also I understand that the the Trijicon Reflex Sights don't need batteries but the Aimpoint M4 and M4s have a 70,000 hour battery life and the T1 has a 50,000 hour battery life! You could turn the sight on to it's middle visible setting and the battery will last well over 5 years. I have 2 T1s on my ARs and I leave them on all the time, I never turn them off. That is one less thing to do when there is a bump in the night. Just pick up the carbine, sling and charge. I have had one of my T1s on a training carbine on for 3.5 years on setting 8 with the same battery and it should run for another 1.5 years. For my social rifle I spend the $3.00 and change the battery every 4th of July just to be safe. On the other hand, after experimenting I have found that the EO-Tech on my Remington 870 has a battery life of around 175 hours and the batteries need to be replaced monthly whether the sight is on or not, unless I remove the batteries from the housing completely.

 

If you choose a quality optic, I would not get to wrapped up around the axel about Co-Witnessing the iron sights. The chances of a quality peice of gear failing or getting damaged is pretty slim for what you are planning to do with the weapon. But, if you are still concerned about it, get a LaRue Quick Release mount for whatever optic you decide on and then you can just remove the optic if you need the irons. It also looks like the T1 in the factory low mount would Co-Witness quite nicely in the lower 1/3 of the optic.

 

Whatever you choose to get, practice with it and use it in all lighting conditions. See what works and what doesn't. Take a class or two and really wring it out.

 

I hope this helps and good luck!

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Just a couple quick things about optics.

 

First and most importantly, always let your mission drive the gear purchases. Think about what you need/want to do and buy equipment that enhances you ability to do so.

 

That being said, no optic will make you a better shot, magnified optics included. Only practice and training with the equipment you have will do that, whether it is irons, RDS, or magnified. If you are a crappy shot without an optic, you will be a crappy shot with an optic.

 

That does not mean that a RDS (Red Dot Sight) or reflex sight can not enhance your shooting ability. They can make it easier to learn to be a good shot, and with practice can enable you to get faster hits in a variety of positions and at great distances. It is just that an RDS is not a panacea for all your shooting woes. You still need to practice and become comfortable using it. As far as magnified optics I have found that they help you SEE better but not Shoot better. Since we are talking about an optic for a pistol caliber carbine I don't see realistic shots past 75 yards or so. A RDS will do everything you need, and do it faster, than a magnified optic inside 100 yards, and with practice you can ring steel way past 250 yards with an RDS. Also, if you are using an RDS correctly it does not appear that you are looking through a tube. The optics body does not interfere with your situational awareness at all and you really do not even see it. You simply get the proper sight picture, apply your shooting fundamentals and repeat. The optic does not cause "Tunnel Vision" or lack of SA. A high heart rate and its physiological side affects coupled with bad habits and a lack of training and experience are the culprits there.

 

The optic shown on the Baretta above is the Trijicon Reflex. It used to be part of the SOPMOD kit for the M4. It is no longer included in the kit and for cause. They had many issues with that sight and in any case, there are now many better options out there. Yes the better options are more expensive options but, you really do get what you pay for. Buy once, cry once as they say. Also I understand that the the Trijicon Reflex Sights don't need batteries but the Aimpoint M4 and M4s have a 70,000 hour battery life and the T1 has a 50,000 hour battery life! You could turn the sight on to it's middle visible setting and the battery will last well over 5 years. I have 2 T1s on my ARs and I leave them on all the time, I never turn them off. That is one less thing to do when there is a bump in the night. Just pick up the carbine, sling and charge. I have had one of my T1s on a training carbine on for 3.5 years on setting 8 with the same battery and it should run for another 1.5 years. For my social rifle I spend the $3.00 and change the battery every 4th of July just to be safe. On the other hand, after experimenting I have found that the EO-Tech on my Remington 870 has a battery life of around 175 hours and the batteries need to be replaced monthly whether the sight is on or not, unless I remove the batteries from the housing completely.

 

If you choose a quality optic, I would not get to wrapped up around the axel about Co-Witnessing the iron sights. The chances of a quality peice of gear failing or getting damaged is pretty slim for what you are planning to do with the weapon. But, if you are still concerned about it, get a LaRue Quick Release mount for whatever optic you decide on and then you can just remove the optic if you need the irons. It also looks like the T1 in the factory low mount would Co-Witness quite nicely in the lower 1/3 of the optic.

 

Whatever you choose to get, practice with it and use it in all lighting conditions. See what works and what doesn't. Take a class or two and really wring it out.

 

I hope this helps and good luck!

 

 

I know about Aimpoints.. I have owned several.. and have one mounted on my AK47..

just as I have owned many reflex sights..

 

the thread starter was talking about having vision issues.. people talking about vision issues are not normally (EDIT: COMPLAINING ABOUT) shooting close self defense ranges.. typically even individuals who have eyesight that is "not as great as it used to be" can see targets in 50 yards.. my point about the tube is if he intends to shoot this carbine longer range and expects the optic to improve those shots.. I do not think it would.. as I was stating to him.. unlike traditional scope.. there is no magnification... I was not speaking of tunnel vision.. but when I shoot close.. both eyes open.. when I shoot far.. mostly just one eye open.. in which he would be peering down a small tube..

 

despite thinking no gear making you shoot better.. or whatever.. I call BS... if your fundamentals are good.. and you reach the peek of your physical limitations because of something like eyesight.. a magnified scope WILL make you a better shot.. if your fundamentals are good.. but you can simple not hold the rifle stable enough.. a bipod WILL make you a better shot.. and so on.. sure.. you can maybe make a 500 yard shot with a bare bones AR.. but it gets a hell of a lot easier on a bipod with a magnified scope.. thus equipment WILL improve your use of the weapon..

 

as far as there being better optics.. there are.. and I suggested them.. the original poster was not interested in them..

BUT even with that said.. even with the limitations of a pistol caliber carbine.. and this "inferior" sight I was ringing center mass sized steel plates at 175 yards.. for a pistol caliber carbine they are known to be VERY accurate..

 

most of us are not "elite operators" who perform "missions" that require certain gear.. we are just sharing our own personal experiences with one another..

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I am just offering my opinion, based on my first hand knowledge and experience of the equipment mentioned and the experiences related to me by other shooters who are vastly more qualified than me to comment on the topic.

 

The OP never said anything about eye problems [EDIT: He did in fact state it in a later post, not the original. My apologies. In any case, that doesn't change anything, because he stated it bothers him with irons and he is asking about, and we are talking about, RDS/Reflex]. And even if he did, where did you get the notion that people with vision problems don't usually shoot at "Close self defense" distances? What do you consider "close self defense" distances, by the way, and what about vision problems would make someone not shoot at those distances?

 

In reference to the tube like quality of an RDS, any RDS optic tube becomes basically a 2D circle as soon as you look through it. A RDS with proper eye relief has no tube like quality when looking through it. My T1 is about as long as the "tube" on your reflex, and when I line everything up, I do not even notice the body of the sight. Even with my non dominant eye closed during a high percentage shot, the FOV is more than adequate to maintain SA through my T1.

 

As far as him not being interested in better optics, the title of the thread is "Aimpoint Pro vs. EOTech 512". I would believe that that shows he is in fact interested in 2 optics superior to the Trijicon Reflex in every way but price (Note I did not say value). He stated the primary mission for this optic was to be placed on a pistol caliber carbine used for Home Defense primarily, and ringing steel in competitions secondary. The self defense role that the OP has placed his carbine indicates a reliable, accurate, quality optic is called for. Inferior products should be avoided at all costs. After all, what is your life worth? The Trijicon Reflex with the amber triangle reticule has a horrible reputation for washing out when used in a dark room while illuminating your target with a bright white light. If the OP is planning to put that optic on his "bump in the night" gun with a bright white light mounted to the fore-end rail, he may run into problems. Combine that with the fact that the Trijicon Mount does not co-witness or remove quickly, he now has a weapon with no working sight system in an emergency situation. That is a recipe for disaster. If he stated that this was a competition only gun, then that is another story. The worst that happens if the reticle fails then, is that he looses a match or two, no biggie. He still hoes home at the end of the day.

 

Nowhere did I state or imply that I was "elite", and one does not need to be "elite" in order to want the best gear to properly fulfill your particular goals. (And FYI the term "operator" is stupid. No one who carries a weapon for a living says that seriously anyway) I am just offering a different viewpoint based on my frame of reference, and offering some advice that I have found useful since I have started shooting.

 

We all have a job we want our equipment to fill, whether it be a flashlight, weapon, computer, optic, or vehicle. When you research and make a decision to purchase said equipment you should buy what works for you in your life, your location, and meets your goals for reliability and service. Just because it works for a Navy SEAL does not mean it is the best thing for a regular Soldier, a Cop, or an Armed Citizen. So yes, your "Mission" should determine what gear you acquire, and how that gear is set up and used. If the OP stated "I want to shoot 4" steel disks at 600m with a pistol, which red dot sight should I get?" that would be a problem, no? You would explain to him that for that kind of shooting you might be better suited with a different weapon platform and accessories. Different "Mission", different "Gear".

 

In regards to equipment making you a better shooter, it does not. As I said it enhances your abilities, it doesn't give you instant sharpshooter status.

 

despite thinking no gear making you shoot better.. or whatever.. I call BS... if your fundamentals are good.. and you reach the peek of your physical limitations because of something like eyesight.. a magnified scope WILL make you a better shot.. if your fundamentals are good.. but you can simple not hold the rifle stable enough.. a bipod WILL make you a better shot.. and so on.. sure.. you can maybe make a 500 yard shot with a bare bones AR.. but it gets a hell of a lot easier on a bipod with a magnified scope.. thus equipment WILL improve your use of the weapon..

 

I agree, IF your fundamentals are good, ie. You are a decent shooter, equipment such as a scope or bipod will enhance your abilities. And that is what I said, if you care to go back and read my post. Such equipment still does not grant you instant improvements in your shooting, if you are not already competent. In your examples above you prove my points. The magnified optic will help shooter with failing eyesight SEE his target better, not shoot better. If he does not have a grasp of trigger control, sight alignment/sight picture, the manual of arms for the platform he is operating, etc... He will not be any better of a shot. He will just have a better view of his miss. A bi-pod will hold the weapon steady. Again, that will enhance your ability, not bestow ability, because holding the weapon steady is not all there is to shooting.

 

Don't make the all too common mistake of buying into hardware fixes for software problems.

 

Finally, making it easier is not the same as making it possible. Yeah, it is easier to make a hit on 8" steel plate at 200 yards with a 4x scope and a match trigger, but that doesn't mean you are a better shooter now because yesterday you shot a stock AR and missed.

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Whoa, take it easy man, I was just offering my opinion, based on my first hand knowledge and experience of the equipment mentioned and the experiences related to me by other shooters who are vastly more qualified than me to comment on the topic.

 

please excuse my tone.. I was not offended.. I was simply responding to what you stated..

 

The OP never said anything about eye problems. And even if he did, where did you get the notion that people with vision problems don't usually shoot at "Close self defense" distances? What do you consider "close self defense" distances, by the way, and what about vision problems would make someone not shoot at those distances?

 

I mistyped.. it should have been people do not normally complain about close self defense range with eye issues..

self defense distance is the distance in which you are forced to engage someone because you have no other choice.. I would say in NJ if you get passed 20ft you are going to have a difficult time in MOST situations claiming self defense..

 

and he did not complain about vision problems? earlier in the thread he made it pretty clear.. that is why I even said what I said..

 

I don't/can't easily use irons (my eyesight is too bad for that - and it's not fixable).

 

 

In reference to the tube like quality of an RDS, any RDS optic tube becomes basically a 2D circle as soon as you look through it. A RDS with proper eye relief has no tube like quality when looking through it. My T1 is about as long as the "tube" on your reflex, and when I line everything up, I do not even notice the body of the sight. Even with my non dominant eye closed during a high percentage shot, the FOV is more than adequate to maintain SA through my T1.

 

in regards to the T1.. I am familiar.. I have had the T1.. and now have an H1..

and am quite familiar with them.. you are greatly exaggerating my comment for some reason.. again I was responding to his "eye issues" statement which again you seemed to totally miss.. and was just telling him that WITH his eye issues.. he would be looking through a little tube.. which may.. or may NOT be an issue for him.. WE do not have his vision.. so god only know what it is like for HIM.. I just wanted him to consider that it was not like a traditional scope which he might be more familiar with..

 

this is my H1 on my AK..

 

saiga762finalvlad2.JPG

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Nowhere did I state or imply that I was "elite". (And FYI the term "operator" is stupid. No one who carries a weapon for a living says that seriously anyway) I am just offering a different viewpoint based on my frame of reference, and offering some advice that I have found useful since I have started shooting. We all have a job we want our equipment to fill, whether it be a flashlight, weapon, computer, optic, or vehicle. When you research and make a decision to purchase said equipment you should buy what works for you in your life, your location, and meets your goals for reliability and service. Just because it works for a Navy SEAL does not mean it is the best thing for a regular Soldier, a Cop, or an Armed Citizen. So yes, your "Mission" should determine what gear you acquire, and how that gear is set up and used. If the OP stated "I want to shoot 4" steel disks at 600m with a pistol, which red dot sight should I get?" that would be a problem, no? You would explain to him that for that kind of shooting you might be better suited with a different weapon platform and accessories. Different "Mission", different "Gear".

 

when people start saying things like "mission" it just draws this icky picture.. my apologies had I taken that the wrong way..

 

 

The OP never said anything about eye problems. And even if he did, where did you get the notion that people with vision problems don't usually shoot at "Close self defense" distances? What do you consider "close self defense" distances, by the way, and what about vision problems would make someone not shoot at those distances?

 

I mistyped.. it should have been people do not normally complain about close self defense range with eye issues..

self defense distance is the distance in which you are forced to engage someone because you have no other choice.. I would say in NJ if you get passed 20ft you are going to have a difficult time in MOST situations claiming self defense..

 

and he did not complain about vision problems? earlier in the thread he made it pretty clear.. that is why I even said what I said..

 

I don't/can't easily use irons (my eyesight is too bad for that - and it's not fixable).

 

 

 

 

As far as him not being interested in better optics, the title of the thread is "Aimpoint Pro vs. EOTech 512". I would believe that that shows he is in fact interested in 2 optics superior to the Trijicon Reflex in every way but price (Note I did not say value). He stated the primary mission for this optic was to be placed on a pistol caliber carbine used for Home Defense primarily, and ringing steel in competitions secondary. The self defense role that the OP has placed his carbine indicates a reliable, accurate, quality optic is called for. Inferior products should be avoided at all costs. After all, what is your life worth? The Trijicon Reflex with the amber triangle reticule has a horrible reputation for washing out when used in a dark room while illuminating your target with a bright white light. If the OP is planning to put that optic on his "bump in the night" gun with a bright white light mounted to the fore-end rail, he may run into problems. Combine that with the fact that the Trijicon Mount does not co-witness or remove quickly, he now has a weapon with no working sight system in an emergency situation. That is a recipe for disaster. If he stated that this was a competition only gun, then that is another story. The worst that happens if the reticle fails then, is that he looses a match or two, no biggie. He still hoes home at the end of the day.

 

to imply that my setup will not get the job done in a 20-30 foot gun fight is absurd.. I have shot the gun at dusk and had no problems.. but again.. vision is subjective.. for you.. maybe it was washed out? for me.. it works fine.. also I am not walking around the house with the light on my gun constantly on.. I also do not live in a cave.. there is generally enough light already in my house to shoot something if I had to.. the light is JUST in case.. despite your emphasis on cowitness.. again the original poster CLEARLY states it is NOT relevant to him in ANY way.. but just like his vision problems you glanced over that as well..

 

Thanks, but as I posted earlier - not buying in to the whole co-witness argument. I don't/can't easily use irons

 

 

Nowhere did I state or imply that I was "elite". (And FYI the term "operator" is stupid. No one who carries a weapon for a living says that seriously anyway) I am just offering a different viewpoint based on my frame of reference, and offering some advice that I have found useful since I have started shooting. We all have a job we want our equipment to fill, whether it be a flashlight, weapon, computer, optic, or vehicle. When you research and make a decision to purchase said equipment you should buy what works for you in your life, your location, and meets your goals for reliability and service. Just because it works for a Navy SEAL does not mean it is the best thing for a regular Soldier, a Cop, or an Armed Citizen. So yes, your "Mission" should determine what gear you acquire, and how that gear is set up and used. If the OP stated "I want to shoot 4" steel disks at 600m with a pistol, which red dot sight should I get?" that would be a problem, no? You would explain to him that for that kind of shooting you might be better suited with a different weapon platform and accessories. Different "Mission", different "Gear".

 

sorry.. for me.. words like "mission" in the civilian sector.. (our sector).. are used it conjures all types of icky images.. and I guess I just assume the worst.. if I got the wrong impression... my apologies..

 

 

In regards to equipment making you a better shooter, it does not. As I said it enhances your abilities, it doesn't give you instant sharpshooter status.

 

I agree, IF your fundamentals are good, ie. You are a decent shooter, equipment such as a scope or bipod will enhance your abilities. And that is what I said, if you care to go back and read my post. Such equipment still does not grant you instant improvements in your shooting, if you are not already competent. In your examples above you prove my points. The magnified optic will help shooter with failing eyesight SEE his target better, not shoot better. If he does not have a grasp of trigger control, sight alignment/sight picture, the manual of arms for the platform he is operating, etc... He will not be any better of a shot. He will just have a better view of his miss. A bi-pod will hold the weapon steady. Again, that will enhance your ability, not bestow ability, because holding the weapon steady is not all there is to shooting.

 

Don't make the all too common mistake of buying into hardware fixes for software problems.

 

Finally, making it easier is not the same as making it possible. Yeah, it is easier to make a hit on 8" steel plate at 200 yards with a 4x scope and a match trigger, but that doesn't mean you are a better shooter now because yesterday you shot a stock AR and missed.

 

sorry.. we will agree to disagree..

a person with poor fundamentals who picks up a POS rifle chambered in XX caliber... and tries to hit a steel plate at 100 yards.. would likely be able to do it far easier with a rifle chambered in the same caliber with a worked fire control group.. magnified scope... bipod.. etc.. why? because things like a rough FCG will amplify poor skill.. if you "jerk the trigger" you are going to do it that much worse on a gun with a **** FCG to overcome the resistance.. I agree with you to an extent.. but you can not ignore the power of quality goods..

 

and I never said the weapon was the only factor.. I also never said the weapon will make you perfect.. but what I did say.. is improvements in the system (the weapon) CAN cause a shooter to perform better EVEN if they have no reached their limit..

 

I have seen it.. first hand..

 

look again if we got off on the wrong foot.. my apologies.. I guess what I found annoying was the whole vibe of grandstanding.. and what I mean by that is you appeared to take the thread and make it less about what the original poster wanted.. and more about what YOU want..

 

* I suggested an Aimoint micro (T1.. H1.. etc..)

* he specifically said he had eye issues.. which.. you admitted you did not even notice..

* he already stated co-witness was NOT useful to him on this particular gun (he can't see the friggin iron sights).. again.. you ignored it..

 

it just felt like you were not even really responding to HIM and his wants... or even really reading the thread for that matter..

 

to be really blunt.. it is going to be pretty hard to miss someone with a carbine inside a legit SD shooting distance.. we are not really even talking 25 YARDS here.. this would be like an interior home situation..

 

just my 2 cents..

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Thanks to the group for the great discussions and advice. I went with the Aimpoint PRO - came in yesterday and I think it will suit me just right. My reasons for selecting this over the EOTech: 1) my vison, combined with the reports of busy reticle and sometines less than sharp screen (to some users) on the EOTech and 2) the low mounted EOTech on an already low rail (this was the clincher). I mounted it on the CX4 and it just feels 'right'.

 

Hope to get to the range soon and will report back. A little background - bad eyesight aside, I was a decent shooter (2 years near-daily combat; in my younger days) - I just need the extra help now.

 

Thanks again guys (kudos to Vladtepes) - you are a wealth of common-sense info!

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