TheLugNutZ 21 Posted November 14, 2011 I have a Florida CCW. Big question is as follows: is being able to legally carry in PA a reason to be able to legally transport locked and unloaded in the trunk until I reach Pennsylvania? I know state law says you have to be going to/from the range, home, place of work but what about traveling somewhere? I also realize there is a federal law on the books allowing transportation to and from places you are legally allowed to have the weapon. Does this federal law supersede the state law? And if so, can anyone point out the law so I can print it and leave it with the gun? Any help at all would be great! I also plan on getting one of these: http://www.sportco.com/store/pc/GunVault-Nanovault-300-451p53593.htm for the car while transporting, and if we end up somewhere that i cannot carry... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bry@n 195 Posted November 14, 2011 You may wanna search for this. I know it's been covered before. There seems to be different views on this depending on peoples opinion of the law. If you look on the PA forum, there was a thread that said it was illegal. Some say it's legal Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TheLugNutZ 21 Posted November 14, 2011 sorry, i actually tried to search for it, but i kept getting an error... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hd2000fxdl 422 Posted November 14, 2011 We all know the NJ Laws on transport, we transport handguns by exemption, as long as you are transporting inside NJ legally NJ has no control of what happens as soon as you cross the state line as long as the gun is legal to have here and at your destination. If you feel better, your on the way to a range, competition,etc and if you just happen to change your plans when you cross the state line, so be it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TheLugNutZ 21 Posted November 14, 2011 yeah i know everyone says just say you are going to the range. but what if its friday night at 9pm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hd2000fxdl 422 Posted November 14, 2011 yeah i know everyone says just say you are going to the range. but what if its friday night at 9pm? Ok, then your on your way to a competition in Nevada or pick a state. Actually you could be going to the rage in PA and your going to be in PA for a few days vacationing, no where does it say you have to leave during normal range operating hours and return right away. I do understand you don't want to do anything that will get you in trouble, and the worst part of it, restricted people that don't care about the laws and get caught may get a slap on the wrist in comparison to what us legal firearms owners would get if we did something wrong, but the truth of the matter is we need to stop making up rules and laws that don't exist and living in fear of owning firearms that are our right to own. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bry@n 195 Posted November 14, 2011 Your going to be shooting at a friends house. That is legal in PA. Also, I didn't mean to imply that you didn't search. I meant maybe you would get more answers quicker. I am not a search nazi guy. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Anselmo 87 Posted November 14, 2011 How do you prove you are headed to a range? Anyone can say they are headed to a range if stopped by the police. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TheLugNutZ 21 Posted November 14, 2011 Ok, then your on your way to a competition in Nevada or pick a state. Actually you could be going to the rage in PA and your going to be in PA for a few days vacationing, no where does it say you have to leave during normal range operating hours and return right away. I do understand you don't want to do anything that will get you in trouble, and the worst part of it, restricted people that don't care about the laws and get caught may get a slap on the wrist in comparison to what us legal firearms owners would get if we did something wrong, but the truth of the matter is we need to stop making up rules and laws that don't exist and living in fear of owning firearms that are our right to own. very true, good point. and i completely agree with you! Your going to be shooting at a friends house. That is legal in PA. Also, I didn't mean to imply that you didn't search. I meant maybe you would get more answers quicker. I am not a search nazi guy. another good point! sorry if i came back sounding defensive. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hd2000fxdl 422 Posted November 14, 2011 How do you prove you are headed to a range? Anyone can say they are headed to a range if stopped by the police. Who says you have to, what proof do you have when you leave your house and are on the way to the range, I sure know I don't get a range pass e-mailed to me before I head out as proof. come on, this turning out to reading between times 2 here. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bry@n 195 Posted November 14, 2011 Generally, if I am going to PA, I will be shooting at some point. Another point is, don't atract attention to yourself. That means don't drive agressive and odds are, you will never have an issue. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PK90 3,570 Posted November 14, 2011 Everything you wanted to know about transporting firearms Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hd2000fxdl 422 Posted November 14, 2011 I was just about to say, Where is Paul with a 10 word or less answer to this.. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
vladtepes 1,060 Posted November 14, 2011 I would not personally lie.. "do you have any weapons in the car" "I have a cased unloaded handgun in the trunk" "are you headed to the range or something" "no I am traveling to another state and transporting in accordance with "the firearm owners protection act" and say not a word more about the subject.. "Notwithstanding any other provision of any law or any rule or regulation of a State or any political subdivision thereof, any person who is not otherwise prohibited by this chapter from transporting, ...... from any place where he may lawfully possess and carry such firearm to any other place where he may lawfully possess and carry such firearm if, during such transportation the firearm is unloaded, and neither the firearm nor any ammunition being transported is readily accessible or is directly accessible from the passenger compartment of such transporting vehicle: Provided, That in the case of a vehicle without a compartment separate from the driver’s compartment the firearm or ammunition shall be contained in a locked container other than the glove compartment or console." This can be found in Title 18, Part I, Chapter 44, Section 926A the law in NJ SAYS it is LEGAL to CARRY a gun at your home.. Nothing in subsections b., c. and d. of N.J.S.2C:39-5 shall be construed to prevent a person keeping or carrying about his place of business, residence, premises or other land owned or possessed by him, any firearm which satisfies "legal to carry at origin of trip" and PA recognizes your FL license which satisfies legal to carry at destination.. people will tell you you can not.. but it is interstate travel.. and that trumps NJ laws.. it is "legal to carry at origin" and it is "legal to carry at destination" and it is cased and unloaded till you reach your destination.. you are IMO legal.. 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TheLugNutZ 21 Posted November 14, 2011 "Notwithstanding any other provision of any law or any rule or regulation of a State or any political subdivision thereof, any person who is not otherwise prohibited by this chapter from transporting, ...... from any place where he may lawfully possess and carry such firearm to any other place where he may lawfully possess and carry such firearm if, during such transportation the firearm is unloaded, and neither the firearm nor any ammunition being transported is readily accessible or is directly accessible from the passenger compartment of such transporting vehicle: Provided, That in the case of a vehicle without a compartment separate from the driver’s compartment the firearm or ammunition shall be contained in a locked container other than the glove compartment or console." This can be found in Title 18, Part I, Chapter 44, Section 926A the part i bolded would create an issue tho... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PK90 3,570 Posted November 14, 2011 the part i bolded would create an issue tho... Since when is the Federal Government a political subdivision of New Jersey? § 926A. Interstate transportation of firearmsNotwithstanding any other provision of any law or any rule or regulation of a State or any political subdivision thereof, any person who is not otherwise prohibited by this chapter from transporting, shipping, or receiving a firearm shall be entitled to transport a firearm for any lawful purpose from any place where he may lawfully possess and carry such firearm to any other place where he may lawfully possess and carry such firearm if, during such transportation the firearm is unloaded, and neither the firearm nor any ammunition being transported is readily accessible or is directly accessible from the passenger compartment of such transporting vehicle: Provided, That in the case of a vehicle without a compartment separate from the driver’s compartment the firearm or ammunition shall be contained in a locked container other than the glove compartment or console. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TheLugNutZ 21 Posted November 14, 2011 i figured that meant that it would not over-rule a state or local law... not true? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Anselmo 87 Posted November 14, 2011 i figured that meant that it would not over-rule a state or local law... not true? I think just the opposite, it means regardless of any state, county, or city rule to the contrary... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TheLugNutZ 21 Posted November 14, 2011 well upon reading this VERY devoted thread and research, it seems like that federal exemption WILL NOT stand in court in this situation. VERY GOOD READ HERE: http://forum.pafoa.org/concealed-open-carry-121/140698-fopa-transport-protection-states-origin-destination-unlikely-report.html Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
vladtepes 1,060 Posted November 14, 2011 well upon reading this VERY devoted thread and research, it seems like that federal exemption WILL NOT stand in court in this situation. VERY GOOD READ HERE: http://forum.pafoa.org/concealed-open-carry-121/140698-fopa-transport-protection-states-origin-destination-unlikely-report.html The other camp (to which I subscribe), having examined some recent Federal court decisions as well as other historical evidence, concluded that ‘place’ refers to the terminus states as a whole; and furthermore that §926A protection applies only to intervening states, i.e. states that are passed through and to the exclusion of the states of origin and destination - if NJ residents can’t legally possess during their travels within NJ then their trip does not qualify for FOPA protection. I disagree with his OPINION... I called the state police.. IN NJ on MORE than one occasion to ask the following question.. "I am going to PA for a couple days and am bringing my handgun.. I understand that NJ law is strict about where I can and can not transport my gun to.. how do I legally bring my gun" "in NJ the gun has to be in a case unloaded in the trunk but you have to make sure of the laws in PA that is ONLY in NJ" I was VERY clear that I was NOT going to a range.. or a gun shop.. but that I was simply traveling to another state.. and wished to bring my gun.. it is fairly obvious to anyone that NJ police can not stop you from bringing your property to another state.. why do they not include "another state" as an exempted place of travel? BECAUSE NJ LAW ENDS AT THE BORDER... so it is fairly obvious that you are permitted to leave the state with YOUR property.. some people swear that FOPA ONLY protects you if traveling through multiple states.. well how could that be.. if that were the case.. you could NEVER bring your gun anywhere.. they would NOT allow you to fly out of the airport with a gun.. WHY? because they second you arrive at the airport you are breaking the law.. remember the key argument against FOPA covering you during travel is that it ONLY covers states in between.. if that were in fact the case the entire time you were in NJ you would ONLY be allowed to and from range.. gun shop.. etc.. you would NOT be allowed to take it to FL.. or ANYWHERE for that matter.. is it legal to take your gun to FL so that you can do some shooting while on vacation? are you going DIRECTLY to or from any of the exempted places? NO so does that mean in NJ you are open to prosecution? NO FOPA protects you.. in the course of travel.. that is the ONLY thing that would protect you while IN NJ when NOT going DIRECTLY to an exempted place.. how many of you have brought handguns onto planes? ALL of those people would be in handcuffs if FOPA did not trump NJ standard exemptions.. this means that logic IS being applied.. while in NJ.. TO THE AIRPORT (not an exempted place) you are STILL protected and NOT committing a criminal act.. this means that while IN NJ in the car.. on the way to PA.. NO DIFFERENT THAN FL (or any other state for that matter) I am protected... IMO of course.. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Anselmo 87 Posted November 14, 2011 well upon reading this VERY devoted thread and research, it seems like that federal exemption WILL NOT stand in court in this situation. VERY GOOD READ HERE: http://forum.pafoa.org/concealed-open-carry-121/140698-fopa-transport-protection-states-origin-destination-unlikely-report.html I would be careful about taking legal advice from non-lawyers. The purpose of FOPA is so that a person from Kentucky can travel through NJ to Maine with a 17 round magazine without breaking any laws. Until there is actually a case in court... In the Revel case, the Federal exemption did stand in court. 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Dan 177 Posted November 14, 2011 some people swear that FOPA ONLY protects you if traveling through multiple states.. well how could that be.. if that were the case.. you could NEVER bring your gun anywhere.. they would NOT allow you to fly out of the airport with a gun.. WHY? because they second you arrive at the airport you are breaking the law.. remember the key argument against FOPA covering you during travel is that it ONLY covers states in between.. if that were in fact the case the entire time you were in NJ you would ONLY be allowed to and from range.. gun shop.. etc.. you would NOT be allowed to take it to FL.. or ANYWHERE for that matter.. Wouldn't going to a location for target shooting in which you purchased a plane ticket for to get to make taking your gun to the airport a "deviation(s) as are reasonably necessary under the circumstances". Why do you need FOPA for that? "g.All weapons being transported under paragraph (2) of subsection b., subsection e., or paragraph (1) or (3) of subsection f. of this section shall be carried unloaded and contained in a closed and fastened case, gunbox, securely tied package, or locked in the trunk of the automobile in which it is being transported, and in the course of travel shall include only such deviations as are reasonably necessary under the circumstances." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
vladtepes 1,060 Posted November 14, 2011 Wouldn't going to a location for target shooting in which you purchased a plane ticket for to get to make taking your gun to the airport a "deviation(s) as are reasonably necessary under the circumstances". Why do you need FOPA for that? "g.All weapons being transported under paragraph (2) of subsection b., subsection e., or paragraph (1) or (3) of subsection f. of this section shall be carried unloaded and contained in a closed and fastened case, gunbox, securely tied package, or locked in the trunk of the automobile in which it is being transported, and in the course of travel shall include only such deviations as are reasonably necessary under the circumstances." because unless you are going DIRECTLY to and from the "target shooting" then it is not a reasonable deviation.. directly to and from.. you could go target shoot in FL for the day.. and take a plane back.. nothing is forcing you to stay for a day or two.. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Dan 177 Posted November 14, 2011 because unless you are going DIRECTLY to and from the "target shooting" then it is not a reasonable deviation.. directly to and from.. you could go target shoot in FL for the day.. and take a plane back.. nothing is forcing you to stay for a day or two.. And this is the beauty of NJ law.... Once you left NJ, NJ law does not apply any longer. The "directly to... with reasonable deviations under the circumstances" protects you leaving NJ provided you are taking the gun to an exempted place (target shooting range in FL). Once past the border, NJ law is suspended. You can be gone for a month, whatever. Now when time to go home, you get back on your plane. Once you fly over the border, the "directly home" clause is in effect. Now that you are back in NJ, you can't dawdle around unless it is another reasonable deviation. You land, get your bags, and go home. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
vladtepes 1,060 Posted November 14, 2011 And this is the beauty of NJ law.... Once you left NJ, NJ law does not apply any longer. The "directly to... with reasonable deviations under the circumstances" protects you leaving NJ provided you are taking the gun to an exempted place (target shooting range in FL). Once past the border, NJ law is suspended. You can be gone for a month, whatever. Now when time to go home, you get back on your plane. Once you fly over the border, the "directly home" clause is in effect. Now that you are back in NJ, you can't dawdle around unless it is another reasonable deviation. You land, get your bags, and go home. the law does not say that.. it says directly to and from with only reasonable deviations necessary.. so while in NJ you have to be going DIRECTLY to or from.. if you are not.. then you are in violation of the law.. unless of course there is some other law out there.. that protects people.. in the course of travel.. with firearms.. going to FL and staying a week.. is not directly to or from a range.. period.. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Soju 153 Posted November 15, 2011 This thread is just as ridiculous as the last dozen threads on the same subject. If you are so afraid of NJ firearm laws that you actually believe they restrict you from ever leaving the state with your firearms, then there isn't anything to say. If you are also so afraid you think there is a strong possibility you are going to be pulled over, and your car searched, then there is nothing to say. In the end, you will do what you want to do, and what you feel comfortable with doing. If you don't feel comfortable enough traveling with a firearm to a place outside of NJ because that isn't one of the NEW JERSEY exemptions, then that is your right. I on the other hand am no so paranoid to think that the state of NJ somehow can govern my rights outside of NJ. Because that is ridiculous and NJ state law only applies TO THE STATE OF NEW JERSEY! And it strikes again. I heard it was illegal to have a loaded magazine when you travel? All guns MUST be LOCKED and separate from ammunition at all times too right? 3 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
vladtepes 1,060 Posted November 15, 2011 Because that is ridiculous and NJ state law only applies TO THE STATE OF NEW JERSEY! it is SO ridiculous that places like the NJSP FIREARMS division didn't even think it was a reasonable concern.. granted they are NOT lawyers.. they are NOT there to provide legal advice.. but they DID tell me HOW to transport my gun.. how to transport it WHILE leaving NJ NOT on my way to one of the exempted locations.. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
galapoola 102 Posted November 16, 2011 Paraphrasing one jurist, "in NJ you own guns at your own peril". You do realize that they've kinda won already. We have these what if dialogs only because no one in NJ knows for sure what is illegal until someone steps in it. Hell, you could be arrested and sit in jail over the Thanksgiving weekend because a LEO didn't know you could transport hollow points from Dicks to your home. Safer to lock you up and let the lawyers figure it out. It's the NJ way of enforcing firearm laws I'm afraid. That's the shadow that we live under. All law enforcement begins with the guy on patrol. He may agree with your reasonable explanation or he may not. Is an unloaded, cased handgun in the trunk an acceptable risk to take when driving out of state? I have an informed opinion but all the cautionary ideas expressed previously are possible reasons for law enforcement to arrest your a**. You just will never know. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hd2000fxdl 422 Posted November 16, 2011 Did we beat the :thsmiley_deadhorse: enough again?? Truth of the matter is YES you can leave the state with your gun, yes the NJ rules end as soon as you cross the state line, We are not prohibited from leaving the state with our guns. If you don't believe this, well post all your guns for sale in Market Place when you plan on leaving the state.. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TheLugNutZ 21 Posted November 16, 2011 Just being sure and the search function wasnt working for me when i created the thread sorry for the repost... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites