Possible Issue w/USA Ammo New 9mm 115g Lot#16081130

[AverageJoe 95]

Whats up all...couple of months back I purchased 500 rounds new 9mm from USA Ammo. Recently I started using some and at the same time I thought I might of been a little rusty...today my buddy finally said WTF is wrong with you? lol Told him, Dude, I know whats going on but theres no way I'm this bad...and why the f are alost of the hole ripped top to bottom or vice versa. He gives me 15 rounds of his Speer ammo and blamo, much tighter grouping and nice piercing through the paper. I'm using the G19. So then I gave him some USA Ammo to try in his Beretta...and same thing, sorta all over the place and paper ripping. It almost seems as if the bullets are "tumbling" if thats possible. I went and sent USA Ammo an email regarding some concerns, waiting on a reply back. Not sure if anyone has experienced anything like this?

 

First pic is the USA Ammo...2nd pic Speer...both out of the G19 at 10 yards.

[magic7 2]

Wow, if those are shot on the same day same gun, that's some serious issues...

 

From the rips, it does appear that the projectile is off axis at impact with the paper

[Guest]

Have you broken a bullet down and measured the powder load? Have you mick'd the bullet? case etc...

 

If the bullet is undersized it will not leave the bore/muzzle properly...

[Pizza Bob 1,488]

Yes, the bullet is keyholing - tumbling in flight because it was not properly stabilized when it left the barrel. Are they lead or jacketed bullets? Either way, they could be undersized - pull a bullet and mic it - should be around .355" to .356". Could also be excessively hard and they are not obdurating (base expanding to grip the rifling). Since you did a side-by-side comparison, it would seem 99 44/100ths sure that it's an ammo problem.

 

A while back someone had a thread about "Is there any bad ammo?" After their recall on the 5.56/.223 with the wrong powder that caused a KB, and now this, I'd say that, tentatively USAmmo should go on that list. I've also heard that it is really dirty. Hope they are as responsive to your issue as they were to the AR's blowing-up.

 

Adios,

 

Pizza Bob

[hd2000fxdl 422]

I would agree, it's the ammo, USA Ammo did have some problems for a Little while a few months back and got backlogged. Not sure if during the backlog clearing they had some QC problems. I would say, I have many thousand rounds of their 9mm through my G19 with no issues, and an FYI for Bob, I have not found there 9mm or .380 ammo to be any cleaner or dirtier than Lawman, Federal AE or WWB.

 

One note, now that I think about it, I did have a slight problem with there ammo tumbling, but it was only a couple rounds in 1 box and I shot through them before I ever got the chance to find out what the problem was, all the other boxes in that order were fine and that was a 2K order I went through.

[Krdshrk 3,877]

Maybe that's why I was missing all those steel targets yesterday :D

[Guest]

Totally bullet size....check it

 

I have noticed this same effect with some Enfield

And undersized bullets

[AverageJoe 95]

Have you broken a bullet down and measured the powder load? Have you mick'd the bullet? case etc...

 

If the bullet is undersized it will not leave the bore/muzzle properly...

I have not checked anything. I personally don't have the tools not the know how yet to do so. Appreciate all the replies, looks like the general consensus is pointing to a def ammo issue. Hopefully I hear back from USA Ammo tomorrow, see what they say.

[hd2000fxdl 422]

I have not checked anything. I personally don't have the tools not the know how yet to do so. Appreciate all the replies, looks like the general consensus is pointing to a def ammo issue. Hopefully I hear back from USA Ammo tomorrow, see what they say.

 

Don't wait on E-mails from them, make sure you call them directly and talk to a person.

[AverageJoe 95]

Don't wait on E-mails from them, make sure you call them directly and talk to a person.

Definitely.

[this_is_nascar 162]

Glad I didn't place that order as of yet.

[John Boy 6]

I have not checked anything. I personally don't have the tools not the know how yet to do so.

In your best interests before you call the vendor so as not to be viewed as a no nothing, go to Harbor Freight and buy a set of calipers. Then measure several complete rounds to this schematic ... http://stevespages.com/jpg/cd9parabellum.jpg then communicate any differences

[ajtesq 11]

Add me to the list of those who will never use USAAmmo again. I have had many different problems with them, all of which started at the time of the gearhog promo. All of my orders were the 115 grain 9mm fmj.

 

The problems are all quality control related it seems. Since I'm such a sucker, I made another purchase after the promo and had more problems. I still have a stack in the safe that I'll never use.

 

Many of the rounds are completely inaccurate. I've tested them from a bench / supported out of both a glock 19 gen 4, and a kel tec 9mm carbine and had the same issues. They are all over the place, and terribly inaccurate at 25m or beyond. Testing the same guns from the same rests with both Federal and Speer have shown that it is an ammo problem.

 

The next lot I had from USA Ammo, wasn't even all brass!! Yes, they had a mix of steel casings in my batch. Not just a few, but 40 / 50 in a box. This happened in more than one box. My contact directly with customer service was beyond insulting. I was told that 'I don't know what lake city brass looks like'.... and it goes beyond that.

Finally I was told 'they are aware of this problem' and I was offered no resolution other than a free hat. I don't want a hat promoting this garbage.

 

I went from being their biggest fan, to someone who will tell everyone I know to not buy their product.

 

Their advertisement banners should be taken from this site.

[ajtesq 11]

I forgot to mention in the last post, that I also tested some of the rounds that were not brass cased and they actually fired well. The lack of quality control is astounding.

 

Add me to the list of those who will never use USAAmmo again. I have had many different problems with them, all of which started at the time of the gearhog promo. All of my orders were the 115 grain 9mm fmj.

 

The problems are all quality control related it seems. Since I'm such a sucker, I made another purchase after the promo and had more problems. I still have a stack in the safe that I'll never use.

 

Many of the rounds are completely inaccurate. I've tested them from a bench / supported out of both a glock 19 gen 4, and a kel tec 9mm carbine and had the same issues. They are all over the place, and terribly inaccurate at 25m or beyond. Testing the same guns from the same rests with both Federal and Speer have shown that it is an ammo problem.

 

The next lot I had from USA Ammo, wasn't even all brass!! Yes, they had a mix of steel casings in my batch. Not just a few, but 40 / 50 in a box. This happened in more than one box. My contact directly with customer service was beyond insulting. I was told that 'I don't know what lake city brass looks like'.... and it goes beyond that.

Finally I was told 'they are aware of this problem' and I was offered no resolution other than a free hat. I don't want a hat promoting this garbage.

 

I went from being their biggest fan, to someone who will tell everyone I know to not buy their product.

 

Their advertisement banners should be taken from this site.

[Krdshrk 3,877]

..... There is an edit button yanno.

 

I haven't had any problems with the ammo except for the fact that it doesn't make Minor USPSA Power factor, lol.

[tony357 386]

..... There is an edit button yanno.

 

I haven't had any problems with the ammo except for the fact that it doesn't make Minor USPSA Power factor, lol.

[Maksim 1,504]

You sure it was steel and not nickel plated brass?

[ajtesq 11]

It actually appeared to be a mix of both steel and some other metal. The ones I believed to be steel did stick to a magnet. The others, a minority, were something else. It may have been nickle plated. When I presented a photo of those rounds to USAAmmo I was told they were 'normal yellow brass' that had undergone a 'washing process' that stripped the color. This chemical, allegedly used in california for environmental reasons, can supposedly do this. I wasn't told that some of them are nickel plated brass. For further reference, the unknown metal cased ones were very shiny compared to some speer gold dots i have.

 

Even if that part about the 'washing process' is true, which it may be, I still received boxes with half steel, part unknown 'silvery metallic' cased, and a couple of regular brass all mixed together.

 

You sure it was steel and not nickel plated brass?

[AverageJoe 95]

I called earlier this morning, no answer, left a vm. They have my email and my vm...I'll give them till about Thursday till I try back.

 

In your best interests before you call the vendor so as not to be viewed as a no nothing, go to Harbor Freight and buy a set of calipers. Then measure several complete rounds to this schematic ... http://stevespages.com/jpg/cd9parabellum.jpg then communicate any differences

Yep, I'm picking one up tomorrow. Still, the proof is on the paper that something is def wrong with the ammo. They have the pics.

[AverageJoe 95]

So taking a closer look between the USA Ammo and Winchester White Box...there is a height difference. The middle rounds on both pics are the USA Ammo, and the outer rounds are WWB. Not sure if this makes a difference or not? I went and picked up a caliper today but I don't like it, gonna return it tomorrow and get a diff one.

 

 

[Guest]

So taking a closer look between the USA Ammo and Winchester White Box...there is a height difference. The middle rounds on both pics are the USA Ammo, and the outer rounds are WWB. Not sure if this makes a difference or not? I went and picked up a caliper today but I don't like it, gonna return it tomorrow and get a diff one.

 

 

 

 

My .02 is that the USA ammo bullet is narrower than the other...you need to check them both....but just a visual looks smaller....look as if it is the incorrect diameter

 

Are they the same weight

Edited November 30, 2011 by Nickjc

[hd2000fxdl 422]

What grain are the WWB, we can see the USA is 115gr, and that 1 picture sure make them look a lot different in diameter, but the height, OAL may new be a problem at all, being they probably use a different powder and or gr bullet.

[hiker88 22]

Maybe that's why I was missing all those steel targets yesterday :D

 

 

Nick - you weren't missing the steel. Your bullets were just "bouncing" off.

[AverageJoe 95]

Still no response back yet from USA Ammo. I did take another pic, one each side by side. USA Ammo on the left, WWB on the right. Just visually inspecting, it looks like the USA Ammo is of lesser quality. Might be hard to tell from the pic, but the bullet itself looks like it has cellulite with all the dimples and markings that are on them. Almost as if its a softer material. Some even appear to not all be the same shape, like some are just slightly "off" or something. The WWB just looks quality, very smooth and even all the way around.

 

 

 

My .02 is that the USA ammo bullet is narrower than the other...you need to check them both....but just a visual looks smaller....look as if it is the incorrect diameter

 

Are they the same weight

Bah, I knew I forgot something. Have to get a small digital too. On a side note, anyone in the NNJ area have the set up and know how on how to break this all down, I have beer lol.

 

What grain are the WWB, we can see the USA is 115gr, and that 1 picture sure make them look a lot different in diameter, but the height, OAL may new be a problem at all, being they probably use a different powder and or gr bullet.

Both are 115g.

[Krdshrk 3,877]

Checked my USA Ammo vs PMC Bronze - the bullet on my USA Ammo is seated deeper as well.

[hd2000fxdl 422]

I would just shoot it and be done with it, you can go a step further and check it out further if you like.

 

Get the calipers out and see how it measures up..

 

[Guest]

 

 

 

Bah, I knew I forgot something. Have to get a small digital too. On a side note, anyone in the NNJ area have the set up and know how on how to break this all down

 

Come by the shop and let me know when you plan to and we can break it all down

[Pew Pew Plates 358]

It is probably just seated deeper due to a different ogive dimension. If you measure it with a comperator it is probably the same OAL. OAL length doesnt tell you much if they are different bullets (which they are) except if it will fit in the mag or not.

[AverageJoe 95]

Ok, I finally got a caliper and scale. Here are some findings.

 

Bullet diameter at the edge of the case:

USA .352-.354

WWB .353-.354

 

Over All Length:

USA 1.135

WWB 1.166

 

Weight:

One for one they weight the same 12 grams each.

10 USA 118 grams

10 WWB 120 grams

 

Thats as far as I went. I guess next step would be to pull a few apart and see whats goin on inside?

 

 

Come by the shop and let me know when you plan to and we can break it all down

You're about a 40min ride...whats your sched look like tomorrow? I'm on nights this week and next so any time before 12 would be good. Appreciate the offer.

 

 

EDIT: Still no reply back from USA Ammo. I sent a follow up email. Also tried calling again w/o an answer.

[Pew Pew Plates 358]

Without a comperator you are just pissing in the wind with measuring OAL. OAL is useful to determine if it will fit in the magazine or feed properly, but accuracy problems would be rooted in the ogive-base measurement which you cant do without a comperator. The tip of the bullet that you are measuring never even touches the bore, the ogive does. This is why you should measure from the ogive. A shorter OAL could still have a bullet that actually has an ogive further out into the bore. For example if you have a full wadcutter seated to the same OAL of a FMJ you are going to have HUGE problems.