AR gas-piston driven system

[tuktuk 16]

Just wondering who has gas-piston driven system on their AR. Did you buy a complete rifle? Upper ? or just the piston conversion kit? Which one? How do u like? Worth it? issues?

I would like to hear from ppl who actually have the sys and used it for a while. And let's not make it about gas vs piston and which is better.

Thank you.

[Pizza Bob 1,488]

I have one. I bought a POF upper and mounted it on a RRA w/match trigger, lower. I bought it because I'm lazy. I hate to spend the time to clean and lube guns. I first became aware of POF when I read an article featuring a torture test of one of their guns - 16K rounds without cleaning or lube.

 

It was expensive, but at the time POF and LWRC were about the only piston games in town. Both had long waits for product. I found a POF dealer in FL that had an upper configured exactly as I wanted it (14.5" barrel with a perm installed brake to bring it to an NFA legal 16"). Had to have POF regulate the gas port to run with a rifle buffer & spring, due to some short-stroking (factory set for carbine buffer set-up). Runs fine now. There are the piston-haters that will tell you they are less accurate and tell you more than you ever wanted to know about the dreaded "carrier tilt", but even if that was true (and I see no evidence of that in my rifle), to me the benefits far outweigh any perceived detriments.

 

 

Adios,

 

Pizza Bob

[tuktuk 16]

I have one. I bought a POF upper and mounted it on a RRA w/match trigger. I bought it because I'm lazy. I hate to spend the time to clean and lube guns. I first became aware of POF when I read an article featuring a torture test of one of their guns - 16K rounds without cleaning or lube.

 

It was expensive, but at the time POF and LWRC were about the only piston games in town. Both had long waits for product. I found a POF dealer in FL that had an upper configured exactly as I wanted it (14.5" barrel with a perm installed brake to bring it to an NFA legal 16"). Had to have POF regulate the gas port to run with a rifle buffer & spring, due to some short-stroking (factory set for carbine buffer set-up). Runs fine now. There are the piston-haters that will tell you they are less accurate and tell you more than you ever wanted to know about the dreaded "carrier tilt", but even if that was true (and I see no evidence of that in my rifle), to me the benefits far outweigh any perceived detriments.

 

 

Adios,

 

Pizza Bob

 

Very sweet rifle.

What is your opinion on the conversation kits?

[bry@n 195]

Sighewa has a lwrc, pof and a Abcor. They are really nice and I can attest to the lack of need of lubing etc...Really are nice rifles and if I was to sell my colt, I would go to a piston AR. I may do what Pizza Bob did and just get an upper.

[autoxnyc 4]

I have a LWRC M6-AK upper. It works really well and shoots 5.45x39 rounds. Saves a lot of money on ammo and doesn't rust if you dont' clean it right away.

 

http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/2LWM6A2U4B14AKP-1.html

 

You will have to have the perm-attached flash hider removed and perm-attach a brake.

[Pizza Bob 1,488]

Very sweet rifle.

What is your opinion on the conversion kits?

 

 

Thank you. I would prefer that the rifle be built as a whole - not added on. That may sound like a contradiction in terms - since pistons are an add-on to the original Stoner design, but POF, LWRC etc build the entire upper and can tweak things to make them right with their systems. Aftermarket conversion systems are kind of a "one size fits all" and may not be 100% with some manufacturers rifles. JMHO.

 

Adios,

 

Pizza Bob

 

PS: I'll have mine at Shongum this Saturday, for the rifle stage after the USPSA match. Anybody close is welcome to come look & fondle (don't know if shooting it there, outside the match, would be copasetic).

[Shug 4]

I have a Stag Model 8 and absolutely love it. Since I am new to the AR world I figured to go with the piston version as my first.

[DevsAdvocate 112]

The biggest issue with AR piston gas systems is that there is no standardization of parts. Each manufacturer is a bit different in their attempt at this, and parts are usually costly and incompatible. Whereas, with a traditional AR-15, you can pretty much buy any 'mil-spec' component and drop it in... this is helpful, especially for replacement parts.

 

As for piston AR-15s in general... If Eugene Stoner wanted that from the get go, he would've done it. It's weird to see attempts at Piston driven ARs when Stoner created a perfectly capable piston rifle in the AR-16 (now AR-18)... Piston guns don't need buffer tubes and action springs, as those features are contained entirely within the receiver.

 

It's just a weird engineering decision to retrofit one operating system (piston) onto something designed and limited by a different one (DI). I get it from a financial/marketing perspective... but I feel most attempts at adapting the piston to the AR-15 Lower are simply inelegant and were done just wrong.

 

Examples of AR-16/18 inspired rifles:

-AR-180B

-HK G36

-Remington ACR

-SA80

[s8n 14]

I have over 1000 rounds through a Stag 8 with no carrier tilt and zero malfunctions.

[Dan 177]

I'm torn with AR piston rifles as well. Pro's are that you can use most any aftermarket parts for AR's in the lower such as stocks, grips, and FCG's, and of course cleaner action area operation. Not to mention coolness factor.

 

Con's are the the upper assembly (in whole system upper retrofits) is entirely custom to the company that built. As in what DevsAdvocate says above, parts in the future could be an issue if that company folds or they stop making the rifle line. This is my only real concern, as it seems from what I have read up on the subject, most reputable company's have eliminated any mechanical/design issues that cropped up in early retrofits.

[Jayce 0]

Any opinions on PWS's piston system?

[mr_c 1]

im saving for an ops-416 fail zero kit. ill let you know how it turns out

[NickySantoro 211]

AR gas-piston driven system

 

 

A solution in search of a problem. You may close the thread now.

[tuktuk 16]

well I finally went ahead and got myself a PWS gas piston upper. I will be swapping one of my DI uppers for it and selling it

now I just want everything complete from the start so I am thinking but not sure which way to go about getting the anti tilt buffer and anti tilt buffer tube ... should I stick to PWS? or can go with let's say POF or something else ?

any thoughts Gens?

[MartyZ 692]

I have a stag model 8 and I love it.  cleaning it is a breeze, almost no carbon build up in on the BCG.  put over 500(at different times) rounds thru it without cleaning between trips to the range and not a single hickup.  The only problem I have is that no body makes a .22 conversion kit that will work with piston ARs.

 

 

 

[Displaced Texan 11,731]

AR gas-piston driven system

 

 

A solution in search of a problem. You may close the thread now.

In the interest of full disclosure on the subject, I have the hots for a Colt 6940P....

 

That being said, I don't think pistons are solution in search of a problem, but I do think it's a solution to a problem that the majority of civilian users will never have.....

 

If you run suppressed, or sustained full auto fire (or both), then the problems that a piston rifle solves comes into play. Heat, dirty ammo, lack of lube.

If not, then IMHO, a piston is a non-issue.

 

The piston 'solution' creates it's own set of problems. Example, carrier tilt (which is a fairly simple solution in itself, and most mfgs have this issue sorted out).

 

I feel that the biggest issue with the piston 'solution' is lack of a standard. Each mfg has their own proprietary piston/BCG system, and lack compatibility with other companies.

DI guns are interchangeable.....Colt bolts/barrels/gas tubes ect will interchange with readily available parts from BCM/Stag/DD/ect. Likely, I can get these parts from a LGS.

Break your piston rifles op rod, and you're more than likely screwed until you can order a part from the mfg. I imaging your LGS doesn't have a replacement part in stock. What if the mfg goes out of business? Where will you get support?

 

 

I just don't see piston rifles as a big deal for most AR shooters, and especially in NJ, where we can't run suppressed or full auto in the first place.

[vladtepes 1,060]

I have had a handful of issues with normal DI ARs... But a handful at best... I run hundreds of rounds of ammo through the gun... Rarely clean it.... So even with being neglectful I'm still seeing a reliable weapon... I honestly don't get it? Are you guys that are going piston doing so because of a previous bad experience?

[MidwestPX 172]

In the interest of full disclosure on the subject, I have the hots for a Colt 6940P....

 

That being said, I don't think pistons are solution in search of a problem, but I do think it's a solution to a problem that the majority of civilian users will never have.....

 

If you run suppressed, or sustained full auto fire (or both), then the problems that a piston rifle solves comes into play. Heat, dirty ammo, lack of lube.

If not, then IMHO, a piston is a non-issue.

 

The piston 'solution' creates it's own set of problems. Example, carrier tilt (which is a fairly simple solution in itself, and most mfgs have this issue sorted out).

 

I feel that the biggest issue with the piston 'solution' is lack of a standard. Each mfg has their own proprietary piston/BCG system, and lack compatibility with other companies.

DI guns are interchangeable.....Colt bolts/barrels/gas tubes ect will interchange with readily available parts from BCM/Stag/DD/ect. Likely, I can get these parts from a LGS.

Break your piston rifles op rod, and you're more than likely screwed until you can order a part from the mfg. I imaging your LGS doesn't have a replacement part in stock. What if the mfg goes out of business? Where will you get support?

 

 

I just don't see piston rifles as a big deal for most AR shooters, and especially in NJ, where we can't run suppressed or full auto in the first place.

My primary training carbine is a suppressed SBR.  Every AR I shoot is suppressed but I clock more rounds on the SBR than anything.  Most of my guns are DI, two are piston driven.  One is a .308, the rest are .223.  I can say that in my experience, a piston AR is not really necessary for any of the configurations I have.  I installed a $30 gas vent in my SBR and it kicks about as much gas at the shooter as my 14.5" midlength piston gun.  I have piston guns because customers want to shoot them to see if they want a piston system.  Most opt for DI after shooting them side by side as the disadvantages to the system outweigh the benefits.

 

Relative to DI, piston systems are:

 

More expensive

Built with proprietary parts (harder to replace)

Heavier

Introduce additional moving parts (affects accuracy and new breaking points)

Induce carrier tilt

Heavier/snappier recoil impulse

[MartyZ 692]

Personally, for me it's easier to clean the carbon build-up in the gas block and piston rod than to clean the carbon build-up from the bolt.  Just lazy I guess.

[Displaced Texan 11,731]

My primary training carbine is a suppressed SBR. Every AR I shoot is suppressed but I clock more rounds on the SBR than anything. Most of my guns are DI, two are piston driven. One is a .308, the rest are .223. I can say that in my experience, a piston AR is not really necessary for any of the configurations I have. I installed a $30 gas vent in my SBR and it kicks about as much gas at the shooter as my 14.5" midlength piston gun. I have piston guns because customers want to shoot them to see if they want a piston system. Most opt for DI after shooting them side by side as the disadvantages to the system outweigh the benefits.

 

Relative to DI, piston systems are:

 

More expensive

Built with proprietary parts (harder to replace)

Heavier

Introduce additional moving parts (affects accuracy and new breaking points)

Induce carrier tilt

Heavier/snappier recoil impulse

Ty, you have pretty much made my point!

 

Thanks!

 

Jeff

[vladtepes 1,060]

Personally, for me it's easier to clean the carbon build-up in the gas block and piston rod than to clean the carbon build-up from the bolt. Just lazy I guess.

So you used to run a DI gun and had problems?

[MartyZ 692]

So you used to run a DI gun and had problems?

I didn't have problems, I just found it a pita to clean.  I am extremely lazy and don't like to clean my guns often, as a matter of fact, I have 6 extremely filthy guns roght now sitting in the safe, they haven't been cleaned in over 6 months.  switching to piston was simply a matter of personal convenience for me, however, except for the price, I have not experienced any of the cons mentioned for a piston system.

[DirtyDigz 1,811]

Piston AR's are sold on the fear that a "dirty" AR is an unreliable AR.

 

Everyone has a different definition of reliability.  However, I've read many accounts of extended firing between service intervals to believe that you don't need a piston system to ensure that an AR will fire at least a thousand rounds without a failure:

 

Examples:

 

http://www.luckygunner.com/labs/brass-vs-steel-cased-ammo/

 

A cleaning and lubrication schedule was followed – at 2,500 and 7,500 rounds, the bolt carrier group was wiped down with a paper towel, and at 5,000 rounds, a detailed cleaning was undertaken. A single drop of FireClean lubricant was applied to the cam pin hole of the bolt carrier group every 1,000 rounds, and six drops were used after each of the aforementioned cleaning intervals. Certain small parts were replaced as needed, and they will be discussed later in the article. After all initial tests were complete, the bulk of the shooting commenced.

 

 

 

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2010/06/09/a-clean-wouldnt-hurt/

 

These photos were taken in 2005 by MisterPX of his custom AR-15 after 15,000 rounds of Wolf ammunition. He had lubed it every 1000 rounds but not cleaned it. A thousand rounds later a bolt lug sheared off and two magazines after that a second lug was lost and at that point he decided to terminate the experiment before something disastrous happened.

 

 

I bought into the piston mythos for my first AR; I bought a CMMG upper and installed an Adams Arms kit.  The installation proved mildly problematic - I had to remove some metal from the piston rod in order to get it to the right length to work with the rail I had, and the "right" position for the gas block (in order to ensure the piston rod didn't bind anywhere) resulted in my front sight being slightly canted and requiring significant windage adjustment on the rear sight to compensate.

 

IMO, there's nothing "wrong" with piston systems, but I don't think they're necessary to make AR's reliable.  If it is important to you that your bolt and fcg internals are nice and shiny every time you break open the rifle, by all means go with a piston (although I wouldn't recommend an add-on system unless you like some light gunsmithing work).  I did find the recoil with a piston system a bit harsher (relatively, we're still talking .223/5.56), and with a piston system + a long rail, instead of cleaning a bcg that disassembled and could be dunked entirely in cleaner I was cleaning the inside surfaces of a rail with Q tips...

 

(I no longer have a piston AR, mine are all DI now).

[MidwestPX 172]

I don't really clean my guns.  I just apply more lube to the bolt and carrier when it starts to get sluggish.

[vladtepes 1,060]

I don't really clean my guns.  I just apply more lube to the bolt and carrier when it starts to get sluggish.

 

 

we could start a club....

[Clintoon Eastwood 2]

I haven't cleaned my piston system either. 1k plus through it half brass half steel, no malfunctions just yet. 

[tuktuk 16]

while I welcome all of ur comments and respect all of ur opinions I really didn't want this to be DI vs Piston type of discussion .... but it is what it is althou i still hope somebody can answer my question about anti tilt buffer / buffer tube

 

now the arguments can go back and forth for a very long time ... and everybody can be right ... and everybody can be wrong ... it all depends on the environment, application and needs.

m16 went through several updates in its career and proven itself over and over ... and over again I agree with that 100% . with proper training and maintenance it is as good of the rifle (or even better) as 21st century / space age firearms although we must all agree that it IS a 60 year old design..... y fix the problem that doesn't exist ?? well because its a human nature I guess .. it's a human imagination, ingenuity and the need to do better than the last guy that drives the progress .. some like it, some don't thats an individual choice. US military currently use both DI and Gas Piston system >>> that's the fact. is it a proof of one being better over the other >>> of course not. again depends on the needs of that particular combat unit.

most of us don't put ( and I hope will never have to) this platform through combat stress to able to see its breaking point. so for the average enthusiast it really doesn't matter if its DI or Piston.

SO y would I spend extra cash to get a gas piston system ? the same reason y all of us feel like a lil kid in a toy store ( and yes I know that firearms are not toys) when visiting a gun shop or browsing online >>> cause I didn't have one and I wanted something new and different

I know for some ppl it is very important to have particular firearms without deviation because of work, competitions, zombies, martial law or Martian law.. but for me it's still just a hobby

 

PS guys just want to let u know that in no way any part of this rant is directed against anybody personally, posted here to make me look like I know something or should be taken as an insult to Eugene. some of my previous posts in other sections infuriated ppl who couldn't recognized that I was joking and being sarcastic ... and what's up with the name calling ???

so Yee take it easy on me I'm still learning