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Ray Ray

Do you need training?

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It's a topic that was brought up in chat a little while ago and I wanted some input. As someone that was raised around guns I'm not a training nut. But for someone totally new I would recommend a class for what their looking to do.

Some have said that training isn't needed, as your not going to fight a war or shoot it out in the streets with a long gun. But being proficient in different firearms is an accent in and of itself. What say you?

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I am also in agreement with Paul. I never had any formal training and tend to do well with my guns. I am looking to take some professional training to prepare myself for a pistol gunfight while carrying a handgun. Outside of that, (as an outsider to the training 'community') I view training as just another thing that's fun to do with guns.

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I've got an extensive background in competition, training, service, and as trainer. Every gun owner needs sound training and understanding of the fundamentals. Anyone who is self-taught, I absolutely guarentee you that you have at least one bad behavior. Be one with the fundamentals. If you carry (I know none of us do in NJ, but thank goodness for non-resident permits), I firmly feel more advanced training is necessary both in terms of your legal responsibility and carrying responsibly. I'm sure you all saw the article just the other day where a CCW holder was very casually disarmed and killed with his own gun. Finally, I have seen many, many shooters at ranges and clubs that absolutely, 100% NEED training in the fundamentals and really need to pack up their firearms and get some before returning. I won't even get into the last hunter safety class I saw being instructed. I wouldn't be in the woods with the students OR the "instructors" - YIKES!

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It all depends on the individual.. and the expected gain in performance..

 

but even a proficient shooter has room to improve..

 

But there is something to be said about training.. NOT all training is equal.. and to just blindly assume training will help is foolish.. you can actually be trained improperly.. making your shooting even worse..

 

And even with a great trainer.. the limitations of the individual being trained AND the trainers level will completely and totally dictate the usefulness of training.. I used to constantly see it when doing self defense classes.. people would come in for more advanced classes simply because they were more advanced.. assuming it would benefit them.. but since the level of training was higher than their physical skill.. this ultra high level of training was worthless to them.. it was beyond their ability.. point being piling the most "elite" training onto someone not on that level is a big fat waste of money...

 

I have found that even though I shoot OK I have had trainers pick up on mistakes I was not even mindful of.. and that was the most useful thing for me.. all those little things.. I used to have a horrible handgun grip.. but it was all just because my support hand was the SLIGHTEST bit off.. and that change in angle was like night and day for me..

 

while I have taken several classes over the years, I spent a lot of time learning with LEO, and LEO instructor I am friends with.. once I get situated in PA I would like to look into some more aggressive classes..

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I think training creates an appreciation and understanding through application, and that can be instrumental regarding knowledge not just for the individual, but how they project that knowledge to others (and thus enriching the community further through transfer of knowledge, as well as bringing in new members of the community who might have not been previously involved). Of course the important thing here is that the information be legitimate. Simply, there are enough trolls and mall ninjas-- and they must be weeded out.

 

But I do agree with the notion that extensive training isn't required for the regular folk. Safety is safety, and is often learned through appreciation of not just the firearm, but the whole mentality of firearms. However, I do believe strongly that if a person relies on a firearm(s) regarding the safety of them and/or their families (or the community/country/kinsmen), they should extensively train as they are a walking liability (or at least the rounds are). Liability not in the sense that they would make bad decisions, but that they could very well impact me or someone else who might not even be involved in the altercation.

Plus, it would just be a good measure to take. Finding out your worth the first time you step into a two-way-range situation never really bodes well for the unprepared.

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I believe basic training covering safety, fundamentals, skills, etc are needed.

 

Sure anyone can go buy a pistol, never take any sort of training (no basic pistol, expert pistol etc) and still be able to shoot pretty damn good. But I think training increases a lot of different aspects, as well as your skills.

 

I have taken 3 training classes so far, two pistol and one rifle and they were incredibly fun and I learned a lot. As Jon said, it's just one more thing to enjoy while shooting. I like having fun, I like being taught, I like taking action on what I learned, and I definitely plan on taking at least one class a year to gain proficiency in different types of guns as well as different types of training.

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I guess it all depends on your goals.

 

Are you a hunter? Do you want to compete? Do you want to be able to defend yourself? Do you want to prove you are cool because you post pictures of yourself online holding a gun?

 

I would say that in all but the last silly category, if you want to be a better (hunter, competitor, fighter) than you are now, you could use some additional training. One of the greatest indicators of greatness in any field I have ever seen is the ongoing drive to improve oneself. If you are happy being a big fish in a small pond, I would agree that you should avoid any additional training, as you might not feel so big anymore.

 

Ray, it is a shame you couldn't make the force on force class Anthony offered you, as I think it may have given you a new perspective. Please don't take this the wrong way, but have you ever heard the line "you don't know what you don't know"? When taking some good force on force classes I was surprised how it changed my whole outlook on self-defense with a firearm. Even though Anthony (and many others here) are mad at me, I think you should take him up on his generous offer, as you may come out of it with a new perspective.

 

From my experience, most people come out of live fire classes thinking they are ready to defend themselves (and lots of people who have never trained feel the same), people who take a good force on force class realize that you can never be fully prepared, but you can be better than you are now.

 

Are you better prepared than 90% of the population? Hell yes! Can you be better? I would be willing to bet that the answer is also yes.

 

I will always strive to be better than I am today, and I would invite you to do the same.

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If all you want to do is shoot some paper at a range then I believe that basic training on safety, sighting etc may be sufficient depending on your goals and level of competence you want to achieve.

 

If you are looking to carry (presumably outside of NJ) then in my view I'd recommend further training if you feel that you may need to react appropriately in a scenario. If you are carrying but never expect/plan to use the firearm then additional training may not be required. Additional training here could include

  • understanding the legal implications,
  • when to shoot,
  • how best to draw from concealed,
  • different type of holsters and clothing,
  • how to minimize the chance of collateral damage,
  • considering how and where to move,
  • what to say,
  • how to identify possible signs of imminent danger,
  • how to shoot accurately enough without using full sight alignment etc,
  • how to draw while seated in a car/chair,
  • scenarios to understand how you react under added stress,
  • how to shoot and move while still hitting your target,
  • how to (and should you) support a LEO without getting hurt/in trouble,
  • how to handle multiple assailants,
  • drills to try at home,
  • etc

If you are looking to defend in a home invasion then additional training could include:

  • where to position your weapons in the house,
  • considerations for location of furniture/phones/torches etc,
  • determining your escape plan,
  • legal implications,
  • how to react,
  • making a 'safe room',
  • pieing a room,
  • what to do with multiple assailants,
  • what to do if you are upstairs and your family/friends are downstairs in a home invasion,
  • drills to try at home,
  • etc

If you are looking to defend a zombie invasion then training could include:

  • how to kill a zombie,
  • suitable weapon choice,
  • suitable caliber/bullet choice,
  • zombie flesh cooking/recipes suggestions,
  • identification of different zombie species and where the fatal hits are, how quick they move, what attracts them
  • how to handle being touched/scratched by a zombie,
  • falling in love with a zombie and raising half-zombie children,
  • chat up lines that work with zombies (this one is for Ray Ray :onthequiet: ),
  • etc

For me personally, I am training to fast track my knowledge of effective and appropriate use of firearms, I am also taking training just 'for fun'. So long as the cost of the courses are within a budget you are willing and able to cover then it is no different from any other hobby.

 

Do I believe that where I live I will likely suffer a home invasion? - NO. However it would be pretty stupid to not at least consider the scenario and discuss with MrsWombat what we would do. I am sure other families have thought it wouldn't happen to them only to become a statistic in the news.

 

Do I believe that I am likely to need to use my CCW? - NO. However what if I do happen to be in a restaurant/diner when something happens, what would I feel if I see MrsWombat eyes glaze over for the last time while I am holding her bloody body in my arms, hiding behind a table while some disturbed person approaches me with a firearm and my firearm has jammed or been left at home etc, or I used my firearm and just hit the wall and am out of rounds...

 

Also Ray Ray just asked about 'training' rather than instructor led courses. To me training can be achieved in many different ways e.g.

  • reading firearm magazines and the scenarios they give
  • reading firearm books
  • watching YouTube videos
  • reading Forums
  • instructor led courses
  • etc

People will achieve different results for the above based on their personality type, introvert/extrovert, mind set and many other factors. The goal of training is to fast track learning that you could achieve through 'trial and error'. I am fortunate enough to be able to currently take a number of instructor led courses and hence I am making the most of the opportunity. Others would spend the same amount of money in a month on gas for a SUV, beer/wine etc, buying new handguns, shooting 1000s of rounds, buying gadgets/tvs etc.

 

My personal belief is that however good you are there is always opportunity to improve, and having someone instruct you provides a review and guidance that may trigger learning you may otherwise have taken many years to uncover. And for me it's part of having fun with a hobby, meeting people etc.

 

hth

 

TheWombat

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